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Kovalchuk and Klee for Michalek, Couture, McLaren, Lukowich

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Old
09-13-2008, 10:33 AM
  #26
It Kills Me
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MONACOBLUE View Post
I should've phrased it better. 70+ points is an average season for Marleau. A good season would be around 85 points. Similarly, 100 points is a good season for Kovalchuk.
I don't know about that. Career wise an average year for Marleau is 55 points. Kovalchuk' average is a PPG. Marleau's only hit 70+ twice in his 10 year career. So I'd say 70+ is a good season for Marleau.

Kovalchuk on the other hand is a game breaker, a superstar, and I'm positive he could put up even better numbers.

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09-13-2008, 10:40 AM
  #27
Magnus Fulgur
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Kovalchuk will be made captain this year and that will go a long way in keeping the fiercely proud Kovalchuk here. He wants to be "The Guy" and only Atlanta can give him that. You know he wants to be the first Russian captain to win the cup, and he can't get the captaincy anywhere else. Starting this year, Atlanta will be trending in a very positive direction with solid young players in every position. Ilya can be their leader.

Waddell has already begun last year positioning the team and preparing the ownership to give Ilya an Ovechkin-like contract. Waddell has said this to the press.

To assume Ilya will leave is not supported. If Atlanta stinks for the next two seasons, then he will leave. Wake me up once we've played the games.

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Old
09-13-2008, 10:44 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
I don't know about that. Career wise an average year for Marleau is 55 points. Kovalchuk' average is a PPG. Marleau's only hit 70+ twice in his 10 year career. So I'd say 70+ is a good season for Marleau.

Kovalchuk on the other hand is a game breaker, a superstar, and I'm positive he could put up even better numbers.
That's the thing with Marleau, though. His development has spiked in the last couple years. Being thrown to the wolves at a young age was too much for him, but since Thornton was acquired, Marleau's been able to improve his game. Heck, look at Alfredsson. Until a couple years ago, he was only an 80 pt player in a good season.

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Old
09-13-2008, 10:45 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Kovalchuk will be made captain this year and that will go a long way in keeping the fiercely proud Kovalchuk here. He wants to be "The Guy" and only Atlanta can give him that. You know he wants to be the first Russian captain to win the cup, and he can't get the captaincy anywhere else. Starting this year, Atlanta will be trending in a very positive direction with solid young players in every position. Ilya can be their leader.

Waddell has already begun last year positioning the team and preparing the ownership to give Ilya an Ovechkin-like contract. Waddell has said this to the press.

To assume Ilya will leave is not supported. If Atlanta stinks for the next two seasons, then he will leave. Wake me up once we've played the games.
Alot has to change before ATL wins the cup before WSH. Ovechkin will be the captain there soon enough. Kovy might not get his wish.

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09-13-2008, 10:55 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxostoma Rufum View Post
Kovalchuk will be made captain this year and that will go a long way in keeping the fiercely proud Kovalchuk here. He wants to be "The Guy" and only Atlanta can give him that. You know he wants to be the first Russian captain to win the cup, and he can't get the captaincy anywhere else. Starting this year, Atlanta will be trending in a very positive direction with solid young players in every position. Ilya can be their leader.
What evidence do you have for that? I reckon Kovalchuk would be the guy on probably 2/3rds of NHL franchises. If you mean he wants to be the only decent player on his roster, I really don't agree - he'd have to be insane.

As for not being captain elsewhere, again - what are you basing that on? If he's a good leader, he could get a gig elsewhere other than Atlanta!


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Old
09-13-2008, 11:54 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by SharkyMcWoo View Post
What evidence do you have for that? I reckon Kovalchuk would be the guy on probably 2/3rds of NHL franchises. If you mean he wants to be the only decent player on his roster, I really don't agree - he'd have to be insane.

As for not being captain elsewhere, again - what are you basing that on? If he's a good leader, he could get a gig elsewhere other than Atlanta!


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Old
09-13-2008, 12:10 PM
  #32
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This is gonna come up a lot this year.

You need to be offering the equivalent of:

2 first rounders, 1 top 6 forward and 1 top 4 D-man.

Why? Because this is a franchise winger who can absolutely take a team to the next level.

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Old
09-13-2008, 12:16 PM
  #33
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Penner,1st,Chorney,Brule for Kovalchuk,Christenson

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Old
09-13-2008, 12:18 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by 504Heater View Post
This is gonna come up a lot this year.

You need to be offering the equivalent of:

2 first rounders, 1 top 6 forward and 1 top 4 D-man.

Why? Because this is a franchise winger who can absolutely take a team to the next level.
And that's why Kovalchuk won't be going anywhere. Teams will only want to give up their less appealing top 6 forwards or top 4 dmen (Tuomo Ruutu or Sami Salo, for instance). Nobody's going to give Atlanta what they want.

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Old
09-13-2008, 12:22 PM
  #35
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People really over-value star players here.....In reality, they don't get that much back.

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Old
09-13-2008, 12:26 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by The Korean View Post
That is too little. Ottawa has to be willing to give up either Heatley or Spezza to make Atlanta consider trading Kovy. Of course, if Ottawa is giving up either one, they have to get more then Kovy.

Kovy+Lehotonen+2nd for Spezza+Ottawa backup goaltender
Kovy is better than Spezza and Lehotonen is better than whoever the backup is on Ottawa and then a second going to Ott May How about they add Esposito and replace the 2nd with a 1st




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Old
09-13-2008, 01:26 PM
  #37
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Well, it really all depends on whether or not Kovalchuk has a falling out with Atlanta, which we can only speculate. Apart from getting lucky enough to draft two all-stars, they've been a pretty sorry franchise so far (no offense intended Thrashers fans), so if he isn't going to sign another contract then a trade, while painful, would be the smart thing to do.

If that were the case, I think the OP's idea is pretty close. An NHL GM will put more value in a guy signed long term that can play now like Michalek than the average fan on HFBoards. If Kovalchuk were actually on the block I think that would be a realistic offer which could get the deal done.

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Old
09-13-2008, 02:34 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
How about this proposal between Atlanta and San Jose involving Kovalchuk:

Logan Couture + Patrick Marleau + Kyle Mclaren + Devin Setoguchi + 2009 2nd round pick to Atlanta for Ilya Kovalchuk.
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Originally Posted by Devilsfanatic View Post
Sharks give up way too much. Drop McLaren and Setoguchi from the deal, and make that 2nd a 1st in 2010 and it looks solid.
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Originally Posted by Bruinsfan1 View Post
Is the difference from Marlau to Kovalchuck really that big to include 2 top prospects from the sharks?
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Originally Posted by andyGILL View Post
Yes.
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Originally Posted by isles06 View Post
Agreed.

Marleau: GP-78, G-19, A-28, P-48
Kovalchuk: GP-79, G-52, A-35, P-87

i don't think Kovy had 39 points in that one game difference. The point differntial between the two is basically the number 2 scorer for the Islanders. SJ needs to add a lot more.

But unless your sending back a franchise player to ATL they don't dump theres. He's only 25 and will proably stay in ATL until hes 39 and then the Rangers will sign him for 12 mil a season for 3 years.
First, I don't even know why we're talking about Marleau in a trade proposal bcause he has a NO TRADE CLAUSE and I don't think any sane person would aive it to go to Atlanta. Second of all what a ridiculous comparison of Marleau to Kovalchuk, how about looking up the two years before, in 05-06 the difference was only 12 points and in 06-07 Marleau OUTSCORED him by 2 points. Marleau proved he's a point per game player those years and anyone who watched him and the team play last year knows he had issues the first two thirds of the year, and the last third he was back to ppg pace. But again putting Marleau in the proposal is just ridiculous because there's no chance he gets traded anywhere.

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Old
09-13-2008, 02:36 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Chocolate Skittles View Post
I don't know about that. Career wise an average year for Marleau is 55 points. Kovalchuk' average is a PPG. Marleau's only hit 70+ twice in his 10 year career. So I'd say 70+ is a good season for Marleau.

Kovalchuk on the other hand is a game breaker, a superstar, and I'm positive he could put up even better numbers.
Ever heard of this thing called the lockout that changed the rules? Kind of dumb to think that Marleau's 2000 or 2001 seasons are in any way representative of what you can expect him to produce in 2009 or 2010.

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09-13-2008, 02:41 PM
  #40
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If Ducks have enough cap space at Trade deadline and ATL looks like they are really out of it, how's this rebuild package?

To Anaheim:
- Ilya Kovalchuk

To Atlanta:
- Logan MacMillan
- Eric Tangradi
- Brendan Mikkelson
- 2009 1st-round pick
- 2010 2nd-round pick

It is a quantity for quality deal obviously, but really stocks up Atlanta's prospect pool. They also have options to make other trades with those young assets in the future.

Anaheim gives up a lot of youth for the chance at another Cup before Teemu and Scott finally leave us. Next season, a lot of contracts are gone so we can fit in Ilya and then hope guys like Mitera and Salcido are ready for roles and can be plugged in cheap where we have UFA holes.

Imagine this top 6 for the playoffs:

Kunitz/Kovy - Getzlaf - Perry
Kunitz/Kovy - Morrison - Selanne
(with Ryan mixed in, or ready in case of injuries).

Then for next year:
Kunitz/Kovy - Getzlaf - Perry
Kunitz/Kovy - Morrison - Ryan

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Old
09-13-2008, 02:45 PM
  #41
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Let's pull our heads out of the sand and face the harsh reality that Atlanta is in no position to try and keep Kovalchuk in two years when he becomes UFA.
True.

And Tampa Bay was in no position to keep Lecavalier....

And Pittsburgh was in no position to retain Malkin....

The Devils were in no position to retain Elias a couple of summers back....

Sens were in no position to retain Heatley or Spezza....

And so on.

"Facts" one learn here on HF are fascinating.

If the vultures wish to dream of a future Kovalchuk deal, no one is stopping you. But the rationale behind it is wishful thinking at this point.


Last edited by Trottier: 09-13-2008 at 10:40 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
09-13-2008, 02:56 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by isles06 View Post
Agreed.

Marleau: GP-78, G-19, A-28, P-48
Kovalchuk: GP-79, G-52, A-35, P-87

i don't think Kovy had 39 points in that one game difference. The point differntial between the two is basically the number 2 scorer for the Islanders. SJ needs to add a lot more.

But unless your sending back a franchise player to ATL they don't dump theres. He's only 25 and will proably stay in ATL until hes 39 and then the Rangers will sign him for 12 mil a season for 3 years.
A few things are terribly wrong with this post.

1. You used a bad year from Marleau and compared it to Kovalchuk.

2. Kovalchuk was outscored by Marleau in 07, when Kovalchuk had a stronger team than the one he had in 08.

3. As an Islander fan, I wouldn't be talking about handing out stupid contracts like you just did there. That Rick DiPietro contact is arguably the worst I've seen in quite some time, and I can honestly say that, being a Ranger fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Varius View Post
If Ducks have enough cap space at Trade deadline and ATL looks like they are really out of it, how's this rebuild package?

To Anaheim:
- Ilya Kovalchuk

To Atlanta:
- Logan MacMillan
- Eric Tangradi
- Brendan Mikkelson
- 2009 1st-round pick
- 2010 2nd-round pick
Good luck getting Kovalchuk without giving up one of Getzlaf or Perry in the deal.

It'll probably take Getzlaf/Perry, a top prospect, top-4 defenseman, and 1 or 2 1st rounders, depending on who the prospect and the defenseman are.

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Old
09-13-2008, 03:17 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Trottier View Post
True.

And Tampa Bay was in no position to keep Lecavalier....

Changted owners, signed a truckload of free agents, added an overhyped 1st, plus he had already won a cup there and previously stated wanting to play there.

And Pittsburgh was in no position to retain Malkin....

Who in their right mind would want to play on the same team as Crosby? No way that bottom feeder team is ever going to win anything..

The Devils were in no position to retain Elais a couple of summer back....

[B] Yeah, a perennial cup contender, who the hell would want to play for those guys?

Sens were in no position to retain Heatley or Spezza....

Okay, this one isn't even worth a sarcastic remark, let's just call this what it is, a strawman. Sounds like you're running out of ammunition

Try harder

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Old
09-13-2008, 03:51 PM
  #44
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Ugh. Couture is one or two more concussions away from being worth nothing.

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Old
09-13-2008, 04:26 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Coldshot View Post
Good luck getting Kovalchuk without giving up one of Getzlaf or Perry in the deal.

It'll probably take Getzlaf/Perry, a top prospect, top-4 defenseman, and 1 or 2 1st rounders, depending on who the prospect and the defenseman are.
At that price, Ducks won't be bidders for his services then.

Getzlaf isn't moving as he's our franchise center and next captain and is the perfect kind of player you want leading your team in the playoffs. His contract is solid value.

Perry already has chemistry with Getz and on a full season can likely score 35-40 goals. He also agitates the opposition to no end and draws penalties, while providing the spark for our first line.

Kovalchuk is a game-breaker who will score 40-50 easy, maybe 55. I don't think though the difference between him and Perry is a top prospect + top-4 defender + 1 or 2 1st round draft picks.

*IF* ever Ilya leaves ATL I suspect you are going to be awfully disappointed in the return is this is your asking price.

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Old
09-13-2008, 04:40 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by OilGagner89 View Post
Penner,1st,Chorney,Brule for Kovalchuk,Christenson

meh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RandV View Post
Well, it really all depends on whether or not Kovalchuk has a falling out with Atlanta, which we can only speculate. Apart from getting lucky enough to draft two all-stars, they've been a pretty sorry franchise so far (no offense intended Thrashers fans), so if he isn't going to sign another contract then a trade, while painful, would be the smart thing to do.

If that were the case, I think the OP's idea is pretty close. An NHL GM will put more value in a guy signed long term that can play now like Michalek than the average fan on HFBoards. If Kovalchuk were actually on the block I think that would be a realistic offer which could get the deal done.
If the Thrashers are going to trade Kovalchuk it is because he wants to leave. If that is true they would no doubt give the potential trading partner a window to negotiate an extension since Atlanta would get much more in that situation.

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Old
09-13-2008, 04:52 PM
  #47
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Great post, Trottier.

It seems some still underestimate the captaincy's effect on Kovalchuk.

Of course, Ovechkin has a better chance of winning the Cup before Kovy in Atlanta...but that's irrelevant because no team can afford Ilya and Ovvy.

Ilya's dad, who died at an unexpectedly early age, was a Russian Olympic basketball player and basketball coach. Being a captain in the NHL would be huge for Kovalchuk. It's more than being "the man" it's being the leader. Sure, he could be "the man" on the Rangers, but he wouldn't be Messier II. Kovalchuk could be Atlanta's Messier, Yzerman, etc (I'm not saying as good, I'm saying he's the equivalent for that franchise).

Atlanta's new coach is going to "unleash" Kovalchuk, and give him "the green light" at all times. Hockey is going to be extra-fun for Kovy over the next two years, and it hasn't been fun for him lately. He's been playing on an atrocious system with terrible linemates (dump & chase on the PP with Todd White???) It can only get substantially better for the Kovalchuk-Atlanta relationship over the next two years.

Just because the organization has made horrible mistakes on a consistent basis in the past doesn't mean everything is doomed. This has been a refreshingly positive off season for Thrasher fans (for once).

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Old
09-13-2008, 04:53 PM
  #48
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Getzlaf is practically worth Kovalchuk by himself, considering he's signed for 5 years at a good price. You can't get a player of his caliber through free agency at that price.

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Old
09-13-2008, 04:56 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by ttam103 View Post
Ugh. Couture is one or two more concussions away from being worth nothing.
Yes, and Kovalchuk is one catastrophic knee injury from being worth nothing as well.

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Old
09-13-2008, 05:40 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paradox View Post
Ever heard of this thing called the lockout that changed the rules? Kind of dumb to think that Marleau's 2000 or 2001 seasons are in any way representative of what you can expect him to produce in 2009 or 2010.
Not as dumb as using numbers from 2 years ago rather then last year.

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