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Jordan Staal: Draft bust already?

View Poll Results: Is Jordan Staal a draft bust?
Yes 31 6.74%
No 290 63.04%
No, but it was still a bad choice by Pittsburgh 139 30.22%
Voters: 460. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-14-2008, 07:32 PM
  #76
Mike Farkas
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Yeah, obviously not a bust...

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Old
09-14-2008, 09:26 PM
  #77
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Heh. The number of 'what have you done lately for me threads' that spring up at HF like blowflies on a dead hog is kind of funny.

This time last year many were seriously saying that they would rather have Staal than Malkin. Who is to say Toews does not have a sophmore slump? And by all measures that count except slipping in offensive numbers Staal was amazing especially for his age last year. He is STILL 19 years old. Most players his age would be in juniors for the next few years.

Oh, and I could easily bring up threads from a number of teams who said that they would rather have their now scrubs than Crosby. Here are a few beauts about Fleury from last year:

CP vs. MAF
Ok, so you're starting a team for the 08-09 season and you get to choose between Price and Fleury. Who do you want starting on your team?


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=Fleury

fleury vs price
before all you hab fans try to flame me for starting another price thread, my friend and i were having a little friendly argument over this yesterday, so i figured i'd make a thread and see what some of the more knowledgeable fans have to say.

i'm just a friendly californian wanting to learn more about the eastern conference, thanks guys


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=Fleury

Better goalie MTL's Price or Pitt's MAF
Im a big fan of this Price kid he has a lot of upside and seems more mature than Fluery was at 19.


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=Fleury

Backstrom vs. Fleury
We all know MAF is struggling this year, but who will have the better career? Basically, will Fleury rebound??

Backstrom or Fleury


http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t...ghlight=Fleury

Eklund even had Fleury being traded straight up for a goalie who was cut a week later.

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Old
09-14-2008, 11:48 PM
  #78
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Nope

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Old
09-15-2008, 12:00 AM
  #79
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Nope but still a bad choise.

Toews
Backstrom

will be much better players. Staal will be a good 2nd/3rd line center. Toews and Backstrom will be 1st line players..heck even the others like Opokso could be better.

But a bust??....not even close.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:16 AM
  #80
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I remember there was a lot of criticism when Minnesota took Mikko Koivu 6th overall over guys like Komisarek...but there is only two players in that draft better than Koivu and they were taken 1st and 2nd overall. Spezza and Kovalchuk.

Koivu has been a great shut-down center for the Minnesota Wild. He is a beast. Logging minutes on the PK, PP, every situation you can think of. He's intelligent and just is a great player.

And Staal is going to be like Koivu in a few years. While everyone talks about Crosby and Malkin, you know the real franchise player is Staal because, like someone said that is what wins championships. You can score all the goals you want but if you don't trust that player to play against top lines with 30 seconds to play...well...

Even with Gaborik on the Wild, the consensus is, is Koivu is the franchise player.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:30 AM
  #81
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to this thread

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:34 AM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAKariyana View Post
I remember there was a lot of criticism when Minnesota took Mikko Koivu 6th overall over guys like Komisarek...but there is only two players in that draft better than Koivu and they were taken 1st and 2nd overall. Spezza and Kovalchuk.

Koivu has been a great shut-down center for the Minnesota Wild. He is a beast. Logging minutes on the PK, PP, every situation you can think of. He's intelligent and just is a great player.

And Staal is going to be like Koivu in a few years. While everyone talks about Crosby and Malkin, you know the real franchise player is Staal because, like someone said that is what wins championships. You can score all the goals you want but if you don't trust that player to play against top lines with 30 seconds to play...well...

Even with Gaborik on the Wild, the consensus is, is Koivu is the franchise player.
Nice post but your taking things a bit far here buddy lol, Crosby is the franchise there is no debate.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:43 AM
  #83
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Not even close to being a bust. He has contributed more to his team than nearly everybody on that list with the exception of Backstrom who was a key piece in what brought Washington into the post season. Toews is going to prove his value soon enough but he hasn't to this point by age alone helped his sqaud win anything. Staal on the other hand has played a pivotal role for Pittsburgh in consecutive seasons including being a few good bounces away from drinking cider from Lord Stanley. What isn't to like about the return on the pick to this point? They've gotten more value from that selection than any other team has gotten from their pick to this point and if you ask any GM that is what they look for. It's why GM's on draft day let another team pick for them when they used that pick the previous deadline to put a winner on the roster. Posters here often forget that the goal of the game is not to score goals but to win the hockey game, for pete's sake.

But yes, in my yahoo fantasy draft I will have Toews ahead of Jordan Staal. Bust city. Fortunate for me, I can remove my head from that discussion as soon as the yahoo draft ends and realize the merit in player value that does not extend to scoring columns.

There again, on the flip side of the coin the people defending the pick by saying that Staal would be a second line scoring star on another team need a reality check as well. First of all you don't need to defend this pick because this player has been winning you hockey games since he was drafted. Secondly, it's obvious to anybody with a set of eyes that Toews and Backstrom are going to find the back of the net a lot more than Jordan Staal over the course of their careers. What that does for their value does not register in weighing the contributions that Staal has made to the Pens roster and what replacing player x with player y would do for them.

From my viewpoint you have a hockey player in Jordan Staal that has embraced his role on a very talented hockey team and focused a lot of his developmental energy, and smartly so I would add based on his skill set, towards keeping the puck out of his own net as opposed to putting it into the net of the opposition. There is no shame in that and there is no distinction in value between those that score and those that prevent provided they do it just as well as well as their counterparts.

On another team, Jordan Staal may be trying to parlay his talent into being an offensive force but I would have to project that his success would be limited in that pursuit. I would hate to explain away his 29 goal debut season with a simple minded comment like, "he got lucky", or "goalies sucked against him", but the shooting percentage stats make a very strong case for a stray dot on the scatter chart. I simply do not see second line talent and first line upside in this young man but that isn't required considering what he does and does well.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:45 AM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAKariyana View Post
I remember there was a lot of criticism when Minnesota took Mikko Koivu 6th overall over guys like Komisarek...but there is only two players in that draft better than Koivu and they were taken 1st and 2nd overall. Spezza and Kovalchuk.

Koivu has been a great shut-down center for the Minnesota Wild. He is a beast. Logging minutes on the PK, PP, every situation you can think of. He's intelligent and just is a great player.

And Staal is going to be like Koivu in a few years. While everyone talks about Crosby and Malkin, you know the real franchise player is Staal because, like someone said that is what wins championships. You can score all the goals you want but if you don't trust that player to play against top lines with 30 seconds to play...well...

Even with Gaborik on the Wild, the consensus is, is Koivu is the franchise player.
You know what Pittsburgh should do? Trade Crosby and Malkin to the Rangers for Drury and Gomez. I mean THOSE are the type of players you win CHAMPIONSHIPS with, right? I mean those two kiddies can score all the goals they want but I heard someone out there say that real franchise players like Drury win championships.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:45 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAKariyana View Post
While everyone talks about Crosby and Malkin, you know the real franchise player is Staal

Even with Gaborik on the Wild, the consensus is, is Koivu is the franchise player.

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Old
09-15-2008, 05:31 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLYLine88 View Post
Nope but still a bad choise.

Toews
Backstrom

will be much better players. Staal will be a good 2nd/3rd line center. Toews and Backstrom will be 1st line players..heck even the others like Opokso could be better.

But a bust??....not even close.

Pretty much how I feel. Staal has the potential to be a solid 2nd center (another team?), or...even a 1st line center depending on the team (there are maybe 3-4 teams out there that would give him a try as 1st line center, no?).

BUST? No, but easy to say it now, I'd take Toews, Backstrom over J.Staal...
Still, J.Staal is...not a BUST (very far from it).

Benoit Pouliot can be considered a bust right now, but he's still so young, so he has time to prove that he was drafted high for a reason...

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Old
09-15-2008, 11:23 AM
  #87
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to the OP:

sure, i'd have rather drafted toews or backstrom...but that in no way means that jordan is a bust.

i know i'd love to have him centering my team's 3rd line!!!

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Old
09-15-2008, 11:39 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by WpgPens View Post
If all rookie players could have such "luck". By luck the other teams just gave up and offered no resistance as Staal scored 29 lucky goals on unsuspecting opposition goalies. Luck!, get real.
Petr Prucha did it for the Rangers a few years ago, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the argument, even if I disagree with it in the case of Staal.

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Old
09-15-2008, 12:31 PM
  #89
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I definatly would have taken Backstrom and Toews over Staal, and thought it was a bad move for the Penguins to take him over them on draft day. I think time has shown, and will show that at least those two were better options, but that doesn't make him a bust.

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Old
09-15-2008, 12:40 PM
  #90
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lots of tards on this board.


I'd take a defensively responsible soon to be 20 year old with potential 30 goal seasons over just about anyone.


We have already built the pk unit after him, he is going to get Malones job in front of the net on the pp, AND he has the responsibility against the other teams top players.


Tards
yeah, what this guy said. what a freaking stupid poll.

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Old
09-15-2008, 12:57 PM
  #91
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Sorry what I meant to say was that Staal is as much a franchise player as Malkin or Crosby. No one understands how important a great shut down third liner is in this game.

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Old
09-15-2008, 01:59 PM
  #92
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I voted bust by accident, meant to vote that it's just a bad pick.

People are hyping Staal's defensive play, but IMO Toews and Backstrom could do that job almost as well if not just as well. Unlike Staal, Toews and Backstrom have been assigned offensive roles, but just because Staal has been asked to play a more defensive game doesn't mean he's the only one that can.

But I don't think it goes the other way. I haven't seen those flashes of offensive brilliance from Staal that we've seen consistently from Toews and Backstrom.

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Old
09-15-2008, 02:05 PM
  #93
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The value of a player in a team is not always measured in points per game...

Bob Gainey when he was a player was very valuable to Montreal but did not stack up to many points...

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Old
09-15-2008, 02:11 PM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vagrant View Post
Not even close to being a bust. He has contributed more to his team than nearly everybody on that list with the exception of Backstrom who was a key piece in what brought Washington into the post season. Toews is going to prove his value soon enough but he hasn't to this point by age alone helped his sqaud win anything. Staal on the other hand has played a pivotal role for Pittsburgh in consecutive seasons including being a few good bounces away from drinking cider from Lord Stanley. What isn't to like about the return on the pick to this point? They've gotten more value from that selection than any other team has gotten from their pick to this point and if you ask any GM that is what they look for. It's why GM's on draft day let another team pick for them when they used that pick the previous deadline to put a winner on the roster. Posters here often forget that the goal of the game is not to score goals but to win the hockey game, for pete's sake.

But yes, in my yahoo fantasy draft I will have Toews ahead of Jordan Staal. Bust city. Fortunate for me, I can remove my head from that discussion as soon as the yahoo draft ends and realize the merit in player value that does not extend to scoring columns.

There again, on the flip side of the coin the people defending the pick by saying that Staal would be a second line scoring star on another team need a reality check as well. First of all you don't need to defend this pick because this player has been winning you hockey games since he was drafted. Secondly, it's obvious to anybody with a set of eyes that Toews and Backstrom are going to find the back of the net a lot more than Jordan Staal over the course of their careers. What that does for their value does not register in weighing the contributions that Staal has made to the Pens roster and what replacing player x with player y would do for them.

From my viewpoint you have a hockey player in Jordan Staal that has embraced his role on a very talented hockey team and focused a lot of his developmental energy, and smartly so I would add based on his skill set, towards keeping the puck out of his own net as opposed to putting it into the net of the opposition. There is no shame in that and there is no distinction in value between those that score and those that prevent provided they do it just as well as well as their counterparts.

On another team, Jordan Staal may be trying to parlay his talent into being an offensive force but I would have to project that his success would be limited in that pursuit. I would hate to explain away his 29 goal debut season with a simple minded comment like, "he got lucky", or "goalies sucked against him", but the shooting percentage stats make a very strong case for a stray dot on the scatter chart. I simply do not see second line talent and first line upside in this young man but that isn't required considering what he does and does well.
Good post, and I agree with most. But being one of those who thinks Staal would be on the first or second line on another team and having said so earlier in the thread, I would like to point out that I never said that he would score like Toews will if in that role. I specifically said he would be in that role on a specific type of team, a defensively oriented team like the Devils of old. There are a lot of teams that play that style of game and would love to put Staal on their first line. No he would never be a contender for a scoring title but he could lead a team to a cup in that role.

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09-15-2008, 02:48 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAKariyana View Post
I remember there was a lot of criticism when Minnesota took Mikko Koivu 6th overall over guys like Komisarek...but there is only two players in that draft better than Koivu and they were taken 1st and 2nd overall. Spezza and Kovalchuk.

Koivu has been a great shut-down center for the Minnesota Wild. He is a beast. Logging minutes on the PK, PP, every situation you can think of. He's intelligent and just is a great player.

And Staal is going to be like Koivu in a few years. While everyone talks about Crosby and Malkin, you know the real franchise player is Staal because, like someone said that is what wins championships. You can score all the goals you want but if you don't trust that player to play against top lines with 30 seconds to play...well...

Even with Gaborik on the Wild, the consensus is, is Koivu is the franchise player.
Not to derail this thread completely, but given the option today I would still pick Komisarek ahead of Koivu.

Not saying that Koivu isn't a fantastic hockey player...but Komisarek, Hemsky, Hamhuis, Roy, Pominville and even Camalleri (not likely) could all make a case for being better players than Mikko. He's on his way to being an elite player, and is definitely a great 2 way forward, but he still has a couple of seasons to go before he can be considered the #3 player in that draft

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09-15-2008, 02:54 PM
  #96
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He's not a bust. Are you kidding me? He's not even close to a bust. In the Finals at times he looked like the best player on the ice for Pit after Crosby. He was doing all the little things right.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:06 PM
  #97
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I think he's a pretty solid player, but when you're taken top 2, you have to put up a lot of points to avoid the bust label.

Besides, take a look at this list:

Karyia
Lindros
Messier
Turgeon
Gretzky
Niedermayer
Stastny (old and young)
Messier
Federov
Hossa

The hockey gods have decreed that only one brother per family can be a star, and Eric is already it.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:14 PM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rmp View Post
I think he's a pretty solid player, but when you're taken top 2, you have to put up a lot of points to avoid the bust label.

Besides, take a look at this list:

Karyia
Lindros
Messier
Turgeon
Gretzky
Niedermayer
Stastny (old and young)
Messier
Federov
Hossa

The hockey gods have decreed that only one brother per family can be a star, and Eric is already it.
Henri and Maurice want to have a word with you

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:37 PM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
I voted bust by accident, meant to vote that it's just a bad pick.

People are hyping Staal's defensive play, but IMO Toews and Backstrom could do that job almost as well if not just as well. Unlike Staal, Toews and Backstrom have been assigned offensive roles, but just because Staal has been asked to play a more defensive game doesn't mean he's the only one that can.

But I don't think it goes the other way. I haven't seen those flashes of offensive brilliance from Staal that we've seen consistently from Toews and Backstrom.
Flawed logic. Staal was moved to 3rd line center because he is very talented defensively. Staal is big and strong with a very long reach. He has an awesome pokecheck and can read developing plays very well. Staal has the tools to be a shut down center. You are selling his defensive abilities very short.

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Old
09-15-2008, 03:45 PM
  #100
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Not even close to being a bust. He has contributed more to his team than nearly everybody on that list with the exception of Backstrom who was a key piece in what brought Washington into the post season. Toews is going to prove his value soon enough but he hasn't to this point by age alone helped his sqaud win anything. Staal on the other hand has played a pivotal role for Pittsburgh in consecutive seasons including being a few good bounces away from drinking cider from Lord Stanley. What isn't to like about the return on the pick to this point? They've gotten more value from that selection than any other team has gotten from their pick to this point and if you ask any GM that is what they look for. It's why GM's on draft day let another team pick for them when they used that pick the previous deadline to put a winner on the roster. Posters here often forget that the goal of the game is not to score goals but to win the hockey game, for pete's sake.

But yes, in my yahoo fantasy draft I will have Toews ahead of Jordan Staal. Bust city. Fortunate for me, I can remove my head from that discussion as soon as the yahoo draft ends and realize the merit in player value that does not extend to scoring columns.

There again, on the flip side of the coin the people defending the pick by saying that Staal would be a second line scoring star on another team need a reality check as well. First of all you don't need to defend this pick because this player has been winning you hockey games since he was drafted. Secondly, it's obvious to anybody with a set of eyes that Toews and Backstrom are going to find the back of the net a lot more than Jordan Staal over the course of their careers. What that does for their value does not register in weighing the contributions that Staal has made to the Pens roster and what replacing player x with player y would do for them.

From my viewpoint you have a hockey player in Jordan Staal that has embraced his role on a very talented hockey team and focused a lot of his developmental energy, and smartly so I would add based on his skill set, towards keeping the puck out of his own net as opposed to putting it into the net of the opposition. There is no shame in that and there is no distinction in value between those that score and those that prevent provided they do it just as well as well as their counterparts.

On another team, Jordan Staal may be trying to parlay his talent into being an offensive force but I would have to project that his success would be limited in that pursuit. I would hate to explain away his 29 goal debut season with a simple minded comment like, "he got lucky", or "goalies sucked against him", but the shooting percentage stats make a very strong case for a stray dot on the scatter chart. I simply do not see second line talent and first line upside in this young man but that isn't required considering what he does and does well.
Backstrom? I don't know about that.

Staal had 29 goals in his rookie season, while Backstrom had 12.
Nicklas will spend his whole career in WAS passing to AO before shooting. I see Backstrom getting many more points, but not goals. Staal could very well be quite close to him there.

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