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Old
09-15-2008, 05:47 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't know. If the Rangers are faster on good ice I would figure they would be proportionally faster on Garden ice.
Don't use logic in an argument, SBOB. It's not fair.

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09-15-2008, 05:54 PM
  #52
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Hello guys
here is my take on it i hope lol

Naslund-Gomez-Drury
Dawes-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Sjostrom-Fritsche-Callahan
Voros-Betts-Orr

I think Prucha will be dealt and Shanny will be a part time guy no back to back games. The way i see it Prucha is young cheap and has some value we can get a middle round pick or add him to a bigger deal

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09-15-2008, 06:19 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Hello guys
here is my take on it i hope lol

Naslund-Gomez-Drury
Dawes-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Sjostrom-Fritsche-Callahan
Voros-Betts-Orr

I think Prucha will be dealt and Shanny will be a part time guy no back to back games. The way i see it Prucha is young cheap and has some value we can get a middle round pick or add him to a bigger deal
That is one terrible first line, holly cow!

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09-15-2008, 06:21 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
That is one terrible first line, holly cow!
your kidding right? compared to Straka-Dubinsky-Jagr i think its great.

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Old
09-15-2008, 06:30 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
just because players are smaller doesnt mean they dont win the one-on-one battles.....players like st. louis, parise, drury, richards, and many, many others are not blessed with huge size but make up for it with tenacity and quick movement down low.....ill take the speed any day of the week
Of course you would, cause the Rangers are built for speed and you're a homer. Thats cool though, nothing wrong with that.

Personally, Ill take a combination of speed and physicality any day of the week. If Dubinsky doesnt crack the top 6, we have noone that takes the body on the top 2 lines.

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09-15-2008, 06:33 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by GongShowHockeyNYR View Post
your kidding right? compared to Straka-Dubinsky-Jagr i think its great.
First Jagr is a true first line player and when you have a player of that calibre you can put lesser players with him cuase he just raises thier game. Who on a line of Naslund/Gomez/Drury would you consider a true first line player? The only one I would even give it to is Gomez and for me he is wayyy too one dimensional a player to be effective on the first line unless he has a sniper on his wing, which that line sure doesn't have.

Second, Naslund is anything but a sure thing for 30 goals. Gomer will be happy if he can reach 20, Drury on RW on the top line? Is it just me or are his talents being wasted in this position? Anyway there isn't a goal scorer on a line with a pure set up guy. Lets look around the league and see other teams top lines, maybe then you will see how weak this one really is. God we really do need Sundin or another player if his ilk.

Lastly, that line is soft, small, and really not that fast. So what exactly are they going to excell in?

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09-15-2008, 06:47 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Of course you would, cause the Rangers are built for speed and you're a homer. Thats cool though, nothing wrong with that.

Personally, Ill take a combination of speed and physicality any day of the week. If Dubinsky doesnt crack the top 6, we have noone that takes the body on the top 2 lines.
really?!?.....who wouldnt take a team of jarome iginla's and getzlafs and browns.....the problem is that those players are very hard to find.....a lot of them dont pan out because they are either too slow or dont have the skill......all i was pointing out is there is no problem with having a team based on speed and skill rather than a team like anaheim based on size and strength......


also, maybe its because im 5'10 and was never a big guy.....maybe its because that is one thing anyone can work on instead of something you cant control......

but its cool, you just dont like the direction the team is going...its cool, may be you would rather have a team like anaheim, i hear they are looking for fans

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Old
09-15-2008, 07:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
That is one terrible first line, holly cow!
Well, you do what you can with the players you have. I don't think there's any combination of players on our roster that would make you say. "Wow, terrific first line!" So you hope that Naslund becomes a big scorer again or Zherdev breaks out, because that's what we have to work with, no?

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Old
09-15-2008, 07:24 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
speed always kills......

i would love to see drury with gomez.....that is only if renney thinks dubi is ready to play second line and anisimov is ready for the nhl....or sundin is signed for the second line.....i dont really like the idea of moving a natural center to wing and moving a natural winger to center.....
What about Fritche he's a center.

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09-15-2008, 07:37 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by ebn View Post
What about Fritche he's a center.
from what i have read he is better suited to the winger role....

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09-15-2008, 08:44 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
from what i have read he is better suited to the winger role....
He is listed as a center on the training camp roster. plus he played center before. I think they will try him as a center early on.

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09-15-2008, 09:14 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by ebn View Post
He is listed as a center on the training camp roster. plus he played center before. I think they will try him as a center early on.
Where? Slenny up to their old "lets get a guy who our scouts say is really good at one thing and than force him to do something different".

:cough: Matt Cullen :cough:

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Old
09-15-2008, 09:22 PM
  #63
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Not sure many of you have considered this... But Voros might have a good chance landing on the 2nd line in place of Dawes to add size and Dawes might push someone from 3rd line onto the 4th. Just putting this out there because no one has given Voros a fair chance and figures that because of his size, hes just gonna be a meat shield in front of Lundy.

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09-15-2008, 09:58 PM
  #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dagoon44 View Post
Hello guys
here is my take on it i hope lol

Naslund-Gomez-Drury
Dawes-Dubinsky-Zherdev
Sjostrom-Fritsche-Callahan
Voros-Betts-Orr

I think Prucha will be dealt and Shanny will be a part time guy no back to back games. The way i see it Prucha is young cheap and has some value we can get a middle round pick or add him to a bigger deal
So you would trade a player who scored 52 goals in his first two seasons with limited ice time for an unknown player who statistically has a very slim chance of making the NHL? That makes absolutely no sense. I wouldn't trade Prucha unless it's as part of a package. Dawes and Callahan still have not proven themselves. When Dawes and/or Callahan score 20+ goals and if Prucha doesn't, then I'll say trade Prucha. Until then, I don't see one as better than the other. Prucha still has more goals per game played than both Dawes & Callahan.

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Old
09-16-2008, 12:24 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Unk View Post
Or maybe they think a certain American player is ready for the 2nd line.
true that. we have lots of other players who can play center like Fritsche and (if necessary) Rissmiller. Even Callahan.

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Old
09-16-2008, 07:54 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
just because players are smaller doesnt mean they dont win the one-on-one battles.....players like st. louis, parise, drury, richards, and many, many others are not blessed with huge size but make up for it with tenacity and quick movement down low.....ill take the speed any day of the week
I didn't say "just because a player is small he can't win battles".

My observations are focused and isolated to this Rangers team and the players currently on the roster. The only generaliztion I made was that " Bigger, heavier bodies trump small bodies. " And even that was meant in the terms of the players on this roster.

These players on the top two lines aren't all that physical or aggressive when it comes to battling in the corners. And when you're mucking it up along the boards or battling in the corners/behind the net; speed doesn't really account for much in those kind of tight and restrictive situations. Very few players are able to utilize their speed in those situations. It's only when you win a battle, gain the puck and find an opening that you can use your speed to dart out towards the net or make a quick pass. But the battle has to be won, first.

The bottom line here is this. If this roster stays the way it is currently constructed, those top two lines are gonna' have to play a speed/puck control game, beat their opponents to a lot of free/loose pucks and make quick, accurate passes to be successful.

Otherwise, if they drag their ***** getting to those pucks or arrive there a step behind; they will be chasing or physically battling all night long. And that won't play to their strengths.

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Old
09-16-2008, 08:23 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I don't know. If the Rangers are faster on good ice I would figure they would be proportionally faster on Garden ice.

Oh really. Interesting.

Well, I know from my experience that bad ice can and does create a lot of problems in skating and playing the game. I only played recreational hockey ice hockey in recreational leagues. But considering that I've been skating since since I was six years old, I have plenty of experience with different ice qualities.

Anyone who has played the game knows bad ice makes the game a bit more difficult.


I've had the pleasure of meeting Brian Leetch several times in my life and I once asked him about this subject matter


In a one-on-one Q & A with Brian Leetch back in 1990/91 I asked Leetch a three part question about ice surface conditions/quality of ice.

The question was posed like this....

" Brian, from my perspective in the audience and even when veiwing on television the the Garden ice looks really bad.

Is the Garden ice as bad to play on, as it looks?

If so, how does the bad ice effect the players ability to play their game and the game in general?

Is there something that could be done to improve the ice quality?


Leetch's response was that ...... Yes, the Garden ice is often in bad condition and that it does have an effect on the players ability to skate and pass the puck.

He talked about how the puck is effected in passing and when receiving a pass. He also talked about the dangers of bad ice and how a skate blade can get caught in a rut and cause serious injury.

In fact, he actaully said that it was an excellent question and one he'd never had a fan ask him.

I'll take Brain Leetch's word and my experience in skating over yours, any day of the week.


Furthermore, how you can figure a team is " proportionally faster " on bad ice, is beyond me.

Bad surfaces effect the game play of just about every sport. Football, Baseball, Golf, Tennis....you name it.

Why you would figure it to be different and that Hockey is immune from the effects of a bad surface; is quite funny.

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09-16-2008, 08:27 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Oh really. Interesting.

Well, I know from my experience that bad ice can and does create a lot of problems in skating and playing the game. I only played recreational hockey ice hockey in recreational leagues. But considering that I've been skating since since I was six years old, I have plenty of experience with different ice qualities.

Anyone who has played the game knows bad ice makes the game a bit more difficult.


I've had the pleasure of meeting Brian Leetch several times in my life and I once asked him about this subject matter


In a one-on-one Q & A with Brian Leetch back in 1990/91 I asked Leetch a three part question about ice surface conditions/quality of ice.

The question was posed like this....

" Brian, from my perspective in the audience and even when veiwing on television the the Garden ice looks really bad.

Is the Garden ice as bad to play on, as it looks?

If so, how does the bad ice effect the players ability to play their game and the game in general?

Is there something that could be done to improve the ice quality?


Leetch's response was that ...... Yes, the Garden ice is often in bad condition and that it does have an effect on the players ability to skate and pass the puck.

He talked about how the puck is effected in passing and when receiving a pass. He also talked about the dangers of bad ice and how a skate blade can get caught in a rut and cause serious injury.

In fact, he actaully said that it was an excellent question and one he'd never had a fan ask him.

I'll take Brain Leetch's word and my experience in skating over yours, any day of the week.


Furthermore, how you can figure a team is " proportionally faster " on bad ice, is beyond me.

Bad surfaces effect the game play of just about every sport. Football, Baseball, Golf, Tennis....you name it.

Why you would figure it to be different and that Hockey is immune from the effects of a bad surface; is quite funny.
He meant if Rangers are x times faster than opponent y away from the Garden, then the Rangers will still be x times faster than opponent y on the crappy Garden ice. Unless somehow the Rangers are affected more by bad ice than the other team. You read a little too much into it .

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09-16-2008, 08:27 AM
  #69
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Don't use logic in an argument, SBOB. It's not fair.
You call that "logic"?

Oh, you mean bad logic...or half-assed backwards logic, right?

Strap, on a pair of skates and find yourself a nice smooth, solid ice surface to skate on.

Then go find yourself a ratty, soft, slushy or brittle ice to skate on.

Report back on how well you skated on the good ice and how much fun you had on the bad ice. I'm giddy to read the results.

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09-16-2008, 08:27 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by PruBlue25 View Post
He meant if Rangers are x times faster than opponent y away from the Garden, then the Rangers will still be x times faster than opponent y on the crappy Garden ice. You read a little too much into it .
Thank you.

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09-16-2008, 08:28 AM
  #71
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Obviously this depends on how camp/the first few exhibition games go, but it seems weird that a guy like nedved who was invited to camp, and is taking part in team building stuff etc will not be a part of this team in 3 weeks. If you look at the golf outing pics, you see pretty much everyone there on the team except for fritsche and rissmiller. I don't know what the hell glen was thinking with pat but I really have a funny feeling that both shanny and nedved (assuming he doesnt suck) will make the team, in some sort of capacity. we have 14 forwards as it is, so i see fritche getting traded for a young dman that is in juniors or could play in hartford and patty waived. its just that even then, if nedved and shanny dress one night that means that orr is scratched along with one of sjo/cally/prucha. It will be interesting to see how it shakes out, but i feel like sjo/cally/prucha still have something left to prove while nedved/shanny are clearly in decline. we have veteran leadership in redden gomez and drury, why is shanny so necessary?

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09-16-2008, 08:29 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
You call that "logic"?

Oh, you mean bad logic...or half-assed backwards logic, right?

Strap, on a pair of skates and find yourself a nice smooth, solid ice surface to skate on.

Then go find yourself a ratty, soft, slushy or brittle ice to skate on.

Report back on how well you skated on the good ice and how much fun you had on the bad ice. I'm giddy to read the results.
I'm not arguing that bad ice is just as easy to skate on as good ice.

I'm saying that if you skate better than a team on good ice, you will still skate better than that same team on bad ice. Because both teams are playing on the same ice surface — good or bad.

Hence the term "proportional."

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09-16-2008, 08:37 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by PruBlue25 View Post
He meant if Rangers are x times faster than opponent y away from the Garden, then the Rangers will still be x times faster than opponent y on the crappy Garden ice. Unless somehow the Rangers are affected more by bad ice than the other team. You read a little too much into it .
It doesn't apply. There are many variables.

A team built for speed could be effected to such an extent that their speed advantage is eliminated. Yet the opposing team that has not as much speed, but skates in powerful strides will be barely effected. I've seen it happen many times.


Last edited by Jeds2StepOpus: 09-16-2008 at 08:48 AM.
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09-16-2008, 08:47 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I'm not arguing that bad ice is just as easy to skate on as good ice.

I'm saying that if you skate better than a team on good ice, you will still skate better than that same team on bad ice. Because both teams are playing on the same ice surface good or bad.

Hence the term "proportional."

Nope. Not a given by any stretch of the imagination. In most instances bad ice will work against a team who's strength is speed.

Speed doesn't neccessarily make you "Better skaters". There are several elements and factors to being a "better skater" than just speed. You can have the ability to skate real fast from Point A......to Point B; but power, agility and flexibility are what determines the " better skaters". Rico Fata was a speedy skater from Point A to Point B, but he wasn't really all that good at lateral/directional skating. His footwork was poor.

But if that's what you believe, then, go ahead and believe it.

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09-16-2008, 08:56 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Jeds2StepOpus View Post
Nope. Not a given by any stretch of the imagination. In most instances bad ice will work against a team who's strength is speed.

Speed doesn't neccessarily make you "Better skaters". There are several elements and factors to being a "better skater" than just speed. You can have the ability to skate real fast from Point A......to Point B; but power, agility and flexibility are what determines the " better skaters". Rico Fata was a speedy skater from Point A to Point B, but he wasn't really all that good at lateral/directional skating. His footwork was poor.

But if that's what you believe, then, go ahead and believe it.


I think its great how you're being belligerent and insistent that your crude analysis, born out of time spent in the hard knocks school of "rec leagues" and an over intepretation of a Brian Leetch answer to a question, is somehow the ultimate authority on the effects of ice condition.


Why don't you settle down and absorb alternate opinions before mashing your keyboard with those strong, manly, rec league hands?



SBOB's point is solid, and your point that bad ice can affect different types of skaters in different ways was also good. They're not mutually exclusive, so don't be so defensive.

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