HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Wednesday's Larry Brooks...

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
09-17-2008, 10:26 AM
  #26
Larry Melnyk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gloomsville, USA
Posts: 4,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
Larry and Fletch, I think when you cut Jagr out of the equation and there isn't a player/line taking 25-28 minutes a night, you have to alter your strategy. Over-reliance on the top line isn't going to pay the kind of dividends it used to, at least I don't think so.

I envision a useable 4th line that can play more ES minutes so that your other lines are hitting their ideal TOI's. Everyone needs to chip in what they can because the team isn't built to carry 6-8 forwards that make no contribution, as has been the case for so long.
Yes, you do...But you can't minimize your 2nd line--which I think the Rangers are doing..These are the lines that will get the most time and if the 2nd line is unproductive, we are sunk..

I think it would be better to maximize the top TWO lines and find the right combinations for the 3rd and 4th lines where I think we have alot of varied candidates (Prucha, Sjostrom, Betts, Fritsche,Cally, Voros,Rissmiller, Korp, Jessiman, Jamtin, etc..)...where we can go more offensive or defensive.

Larry Melnyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 10:41 AM
  #27
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,193
vCash: 500
Everyone... relax.

Brooks has no clue. None. He never has and never will. He is a hack. He is the worst writer in hockey. His whole existence is based on negativity and using baseless claims as truth.

He is equally as bad Eklund.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 10:56 AM
  #28
TheRedressor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: United Nations
Posts: 3,705
vCash: 500
My ideal lineup without the additions of Shanahan or Sundin

Naslund-Gomez-Zherdev
Dawes-Dubinsky-Drury
Prucha-Anisimov-Callahan
Fristiche-Betts-Voros
Sjostrom
Orr

Redden-Girardi
Staal-Rozsival
Mara-Kalinen
Kondratiev

HL
SV

I know many will be critical about putting Anisimov in the lineup. I have been told that he looks ready to assume a third line center position.

These lines would allow a steady rotation of 4 lines. The big thing would be to actually have a 4th line that can produces between 25-35 goals over the course of the season.

TheRedressor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 10:57 AM
  #29
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,426
vCash: 500
MJ...

no doubt that the strategy needs to be altered when compared to the past three seasons. And last season, to a certain extent, it was altered with Jagr average 1:00-1:30 less per game than the prior two seasons and if you go back and look at the last few weeks, the numbers are even more dramatic. However, I think most competitive teams have their share of guys in the 18-20 minute range paving the way. Heck, I think Detroit's a team with an over-reliance on its top line despite their depth, as was PITT, so you have that too. In the end, I think this team will need to score more goals than last season (or at least be more consistent in their goal scoring) and balance isn't going to accomplish that, unfortunately. This team does have three legitimate (or close to legitimate) top liners in Naslund, Gomez and Zherdev. Drury has been an 18 minute per game guy (except the beginning of last season when he was closer to 21) for much of his career. We will still see that.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 11:26 AM
  #30
Jeds2StepOpus
Registered User
 
Jeds2StepOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 893
vCash: 500
I believe they're going to give Greg Moore every opportunity to make this team, out of camp.

I still think Prucha is going to be moved.

I think the the only way he stays is he really lights it up in camp and pre-season, then, follows that up with a huge point production, in the first 10-20 games.

But I still believe they want more size and guys like Callahan, Prucha and Dawes are going to really show something in order to stay.

I like Calley and I don't want to see him traded off.

Prucha, I'm a little fed up with. Even though he had a his role/playing time diminished because opf Shanney; he routinely has come to camp with his standard rail-thin frame and doesn't appear to have the least bit of intention in muscling himself up. The guy looks like a rail.

You know that has to be getting under the skin of Renney and the training staff.

You look at Dawes and he's built like a little bulldog. Small, but the guy is heavily-muscled and in great shape. So you have to believe he's going to get a real long look on the top two lines. He's much more prepared to deliver and take the physical poundings. Plus his speed, skating and puck/offensive skills are far superior to what Prucha possess. And he's following and fullfilling the physical/training regimen this staff has outlined and wants out of their players.

If he utilizes his great speed with and without the puck more consistently and steps up his offensive attack; he's a lock to say. At Prucha's expense.

More and more I'm convinced Prucha will be the first to be moved. While Cally and Dawes get more time to step it up and prove themselves.

Jeds2StepOpus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 11:47 AM
  #31
pld459666
Registered User
 
pld459666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Danbury, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 16,219
vCash: 873
.

To me, Betts is expendable. A nice face-off guy, good on the PK, but no physicality, and as bad offensively as Hollweg.

I also believe Dan Fritchie is more than a 4th line center as evidenced by him playing 3rd line minutes last year in Columbus if I'm not mistaken.

Plus Dan is better suited to be a winger not a center.

I think if Renney really wanted more offence from the 3rd and 4th lines, he'd look got keep Dubinsky as the 2nd line center with Drury and Zherdev as his wingers.

Have Dawes, Naslund and Gomez skating as the top line

Then for the 3rd line have Anisimov between Callahan and Fritchie/Prucha

on the 4th line - Voros/Orr - Betts - Fritchie

Or if Dubinsky is hte 3rd line center, then put Korpikoski and Prucha on that line and keep Callahan on the 2nd line with Drury and Zherdev

Ideally I'd like to see the following:

Naslund - Gomez - Dawes
Drury - Dubinsky - Zherdev
Korpikoski - Anisimov - Prucha/Fritchie
Voros/Orr - Betts/Fritchie - Callahan

Personally, I think we have to many forwards with the ability to play 3rd 4th line roles and not enough legit 1st and 2nd line roles which is going to force Renney to play folks out of position.

For example, Dawes is, I think, better suited for a 2nd line role and Dubinsky is, again, my opinion, a 3rd line center. Naslund has declined so much over the last 3 years that I don't see more than a 2nd line winger.

So right now we have 2/3's of a 1st line in Gomez and Zherdev, a full 2nd line in Naslund, Drury and Dawes and football team of 3rd and 4th liners all fighting for spots.

Camp is going to be VERY interesting.

pld459666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 12:20 PM
  #32
SupersonicMonkey*
DROP THE PUCK
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: USA
Country: United States
Posts: 15,193
vCash: 500
Sjostrom is making the team. Guaranteed.

Greg Moore? He is not making the team. There are far too many guys ahead of him.


W
Naslund
Zherdev
Dawes
Prucha
Sjostrom
Callahan
Voros
Fritsche*
Rissmiller*
Korpikoski*
Orr*

C
Gomez
Drury
Dubinsky
Betts
Anisimov*

D
Redden
Rozsival
Staal
Girardi
Mara
Kalinin
Kondratiev*
Pock*

G
Lundqvist
Valiquette

*=chance of making the team


The wings are almost 100% set except for who gets a 4th line spot and who gets sent down. It also depends on weather or not Renney feels Anisimov is ready. Drury would be bumped to the wing and Dubinsky to the second line.

The only two rookies who have a chance are Korpikoski and Anisimov. And i think the team would be deeper and better with both of them on the roster.

SupersonicMonkey* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 12:28 PM
  #33
KreiMeARiver*
Have Confidence
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UES
Posts: 6,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Tom does have a love for Betts - but I do believe he wants to get more offense out of his third and fourth lines, so there is a dilemma of sorts. He also love Orr. So if you start with Orr and Betts as your fourth liners, his dream of offense from that lines pretty much vanishes immediately. His other option is to play them 4-5 minutes per game (and increase Betts' PK time a bit so he still gets about 8-9 minutes per game). As well, it's a bit frightening to think (at least for me) that in Renney's mind he can see Nedved on the fourth line providing offense.
If he wants to roll 4 lines ala Buffalo of 2 years ago..he's gonna have to involve Korpedo. I'd rather see Nedved over Sjostrom, personally, also.

It's really tough with Betts....he's not make too many plays if he's centering the 4th line...but does have a lot of value to the team. It's a touchy situation. I think Orr is needed vs. any team with substantial size and/or a heavyweight, but can be switched out.

I can see the 4th line being switched from a fast/scoring type line to a tougher, grittier, more defensive-based line on a nightly basis depending on opponent.

KreiMeARiver* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 12:31 PM
  #34
Melrose_Jr.
Registered User
 
Melrose_Jr.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Providence, RI
Country: United States
Posts: 10,692
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
In the end, I think this team will need to score more goals than last season (or at least be more consistent in their goal scoring) and balance isn't going to accomplish that, unfortunately.
I think that's LM's point with regards to the 2nd line as well. It's not that I don't agree, it's that I'm operating within my peceptions and expectations of who's on the roster and trying to maximize the potential production of as many as possible.

Larry, to your concerns about the 2nd line, I would only say that Prucha is not a lock to play there, or for the Rangers for that matter, and that Renney may just hit upon a set of linemates that are greater than the sum of their parts. The team needs only a "Dubinsky-esque" performance from one of these question mark wingers to solve the problem internally. I'm just thankful that the opportunity exists.

Melrose_Jr. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 12:34 PM
  #35
chosen
Registered User
 
chosen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,623
vCash: 500
Does this mean that Brooks got through a whole article without praising Holik!?

chosen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 01:01 PM
  #36
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,426
vCash: 500
MJ - I hear you. And I think in my original post I mentioned that this team may be one top six forward short (and long a few 3rd/4th liners). And the question becomes do you dilute a couple lines when healthy to create balance, or do you rely on your horses to carry you to the goal. I think most (not all, of course) rely on their horses and will put their six best guys on the top two lines and play them the most. People are talking about Buffalo a couple years ago - that's fine, and of course they had several players in the 18-19 minute per game range. A couple in the 15-17 minute range. They integrated Peters into a majority of the game with 3-4 minutes. They had a guy like Mair (06-07) play the entire season and average 7 minutes per game. So what does that mean? That some guys were mixed into other lines at times and the lines may've been top 3 heavy.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 01:21 PM
  #37
SingnBluesOnBroadway
Retired
 
SingnBluesOnBroadway's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 29,820
vCash: 500
Awards:
More from Renney on the 4th line:

Tom Renney on his hopes for the fourth line this year: Id like to see more production. What we got out of that line is real, good solid play. They were able to shut down some very good lines this league. But Id like to see more production.

http://rangers.lohudblogs.com/

__________________
SingnBluesOnBroadway is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 01:24 PM
  #38
Larry Melnyk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gloomsville, USA
Posts: 4,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
I think that's LM's point with regards to the 2nd line as well. It's not that I don't agree, it's that I'm operating within my peceptions and expectations of who's on the roster and trying to maximize the potential production of as many as possible.

Larry, to your concerns about the 2nd line, I would only say that Prucha is not a lock to play there, or for the Rangers for that matter, and that Renney may just hit upon a set of linemates that are greater than the sum of their parts. The team needs only a "Dubinsky-esque" performance from one of these question mark wingers to solve the problem internally. I'm just thankful that the opportunity exists.
MJ - Yeah, I might be jumping the gun a bit but it's only training camp for us too..But seriously, I think we are both trying to maximize the production, just that we have a slightly different view..But your view might be more realistic given the sound bites we have heard from Renney about the type of team he wants---I jsut don't agree WITH RENNEY unfortuantely!

And you are probably right that Prucha is not a lock, which is good.. I agree about a Dubinsky-esque perfromance is needed but I also firmly believe that one of the top two lines need a Dubinsky-esque sized body and aggression...We'll see...

Larry Melnyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 01:32 PM
  #39
Larry Melnyk
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gloomsville, USA
Posts: 4,376
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hightide85 View Post
If he wants to roll 4 lines ala Buffalo of 2 years ago..he's gonna have to involve Korpedo. I'd rather see Nedved over Sjostrom, personally, also.

It's really tough with Betts....he's not make too many plays if he's centering the 4th line...but does have a lot of value to the team. It's a touchy situation. I think Orr is needed vs. any team with substantial size and/or a heavyweight, but can be switched out.

I can see the 4th line being switched from a fast/scoring type line to a tougher, grittier, more defensive-based line on a nightly basis depending on opponent.
Korpedo first has to prove he is a CONSISTENTabove average AHL player before he is given a spot on the Rangers...I think a half a season in hartford will do him wonders and, besides, there just isn't room for him right now no matter which way Renney goes on the 4th line---and it will also be better for him to 15-20 mins a night instead of 7....As for Nedved and Sjostrom, I can do without either but I think Sjostron will provide good dpeth on the 4th line..

And I agree with your last point that we should have enouggh players, depth, and abilities to switch up our 4th line on a nightly basis.....which brings me to...

"Tom Renney on his hopes for the fourth line this year: Id like to see more production. What we got out of that line is real, good solid play. They were able to shut down some very good lines this league. But Id like to see more production.

He better be open minded on this one..Defense may just be what we need early on, especially to help the new D-men, and you gotta be careful about sacrificing it for just a few more goals..But if we can get both, bring it on....

Larry Melnyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 01:40 PM
  #40
DutchShamrock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 4,964
vCash: 500
I think Brooks is locking down Orr for one of the 13 forward spots, not necessarily as an every day player... I don't think that idea is too far fetched.

Betts' spot is far from a lock, and if some people feel that faceoffs is enough of a reason to keep a guy around, Betts had better step it up... 50.3% and #4 on the team behind Gomez, Drury then Dubinsky. If you are going to stick with a guy that brings no offense, he ought to be your best faceoff guy by far like a Yanic Perrault or Craigh MacTavish type.

In all honesty, Brooks' vision of this lineup is about as valid as anyone else's. I'm not sure if that's a knock or a compliment yet. There are at least 20 contenders for the 13 forward spots, not counting Shanny and Sundin. Center is our strength and we have 6, maybe 7 possibilities not counting Sundin. It's impossible to forecast right now and to me that may turn out to be a huge problem. I fear a Pock situation where we can't bing a guy up because of the waiver rules/penalties. Maybe Rissmiller gets sent down but it turns out he was a better option than Voros but it's moot because of the waiver rules (I don't know Rissmiller's waiver status, I'm just using an example). Renney will have to know opening night who his best lineup consists of for the most part. Sending a guy down may mean losing his services for the rest of this season.

DutchShamrock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 02:24 PM
  #41
Blueshirt Brawler
Registered User
 
Blueshirt Brawler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Yonkers, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 607
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Does that put Fritsche in the picture as the 4th line center?
I would hope that Fritsche would be on one of the top three lines. The kid has offensive potential that would be wasted playing 8 minutes on a fourth line every night.

Blueshirt Brawler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 02:36 PM
  #42
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueshirt Brawler View Post
I would hope that Fritsche would be on one of the top three lines. The kid has offensive potential that would be wasted playing 8 minutes on a fourth line every night.
agreed....fritsche-dubi would be a very good combination of speed, tenacity and goal scoring ability as dubi is more of a playmaker and fritsche is a better finisher

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 02:57 PM
  #43
mti79
Registered User
 
mti79's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,252
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
agreed....fritsche-dubi would be a very good combination of speed, tenacity and goal scoring ability as dubi is more of a playmaker and fritsche is a better finisher
Exactly, which is why I like a 3rd line of Fritsche-Dubi-Cally... Lots of energy and they'll score some goals too.

mti79 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:17 PM
  #44
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,811
vCash: 500
I think Betts puts up 15-20 points this season. Not playing virtually the entire season with 2 stone handed goons like Orr and Hollweg will make a difference.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:21 PM
  #45
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I think Betts puts up 15-20 points this season. Not playing virtually the entire season with 2 stone handed goons like Orr and Hollweg will make a difference.
wow.....thats a lot of points considering he put up a total of what?.....4 last season.....i would be ecstatic if betts gets 10

NYR Viper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:21 PM
  #46
frankthefrowner
Registered User
 
frankthefrowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,661
vCash: 500
Betts imo should be a lock. The dude kills penalties, blocks shots, and makes the most of his generally limited ice time. No he doesnt score or garner alot of assists, but he played with stone hands the past couple years.

Nedved isnt an option, no way no how and AA would be completely wasted on the 4th line. If he makes the team he should have the 3rd Center postion or continue to develop his skills in hartford.

With all that said, i think if Dubi continues to show in camp what he showed all of us last year, i can definitly see them moving Dru to the wing and putting Dubi as the 2nd Line Center, while keeping AA up to man line 3.

frankthefrowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:24 PM
  #47
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,811
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyviper87 View Post
wow.....thats a lot of points considering he put up a total of what?.....4 last season.....i would be ecstatic if betts gets 10
13 points in 06-07 for Betts, and 7 last season playing primarily with the 2 most offensively challenged players to ever put on a Rangers uniform. If Betts is playing with more skilled guys on the 4th line this year like Voros, Rissmiller, Korpikoski, etc, 15-20 points should be easily attainable.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:27 PM
  #48
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,426
vCash: 500
Brawler...

what exactly is Fritsche's potential? I admit to knowing very little about him aside from some readings and stats. I see a 23 year old kid who scored less goals last season than the season before when he played in less games. Although his production seemed to increase from NHL year 1 to NHL year 2. Further, here's a kid who Columbus was letting go for Christian Backman. You can go into a nice explanation how the #8 ranked defense became better with Toots and Backman (not sure with Backman, but some must like him) and that the offense lost was replaced by Umberger and Huselius, but again, Fritsche went for Backman, was 23 years old, has a manageable salary...are we missing something?

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:32 PM
  #49
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,426
vCash: 500
15-20 points for Betts? Never. The guy played about 8 consecutive games on the second line (two seasons ago?) - with Shanny - couldn't muster up a point. He fails to muster up points when he plays with better offensive players because that's not his game. Playing with better offensive players will automatically make him score or assist. His game is an up and down game. He skates up the ice, doesn't care who's with him, shoots and goes back on 'd' right away. Rarely will he pass, or pass successfully. His game is extremely simple, very defensive-oriented, that other offensive-minded players' abilities will be stifled by playing with Betts. This isn't meant to bash Betts, but this is what I believe to be true. He's good at keeping the puck out of the net behind him. To me, that's a five minute per game job, plus PK time, which gets him to about 9 minutes per game, as well as late in the game situations. If you want scoring from your fourth line, you're going to have to play another centerman occasionally on that line in hopes to get that (i.e., double-shift Dubi, which would get him to play more ice time, or if Drury's a winger, have him center the fourth line occasionally; mix it up). It's not going to come from Betts.

Fletch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
09-17-2008, 03:58 PM
  #50
Inferno
HFB Partner
 
Inferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Country: United States
Posts: 19,998
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
15-20 points for Betts? Never. The guy played about 8 consecutive games on the second line (two seasons ago?) - with Shanny - couldn't muster up a point. He fails to muster up points when he plays with better offensive players because that's not his game. Playing with better offensive players will automatically make him score or assist. His game is an up and down game. He skates up the ice, doesn't care who's with him, shoots and goes back on 'd' right away. Rarely will he pass, or pass successfully. His game is extremely simple, very defensive-oriented, that other offensive-minded players' abilities will be stifled by playing with Betts. This isn't meant to bash Betts, but this is what I believe to be true. He's good at keeping the puck out of the net behind him. To me, that's a five minute per game job, plus PK time, which gets him to about 9 minutes per game, as well as late in the game situations. If you want scoring from your fourth line, you're going to have to play another centerman occasionally on that line in hopes to get that (i.e., double-shift Dubi, which would get him to play more ice time, or if Drury's a winger, have him center the fourth line occasionally; mix it up). It's not going to come from Betts.

Couldnt have said it better myself. I could try, but i would not be successful.

Inferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:47 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.