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What should be the last retired number?

View Poll Results: What should be the last retired number?
#03 - Émile "Butch" Bouchard 17 25.37%
#05 - Guy Lapointe 2 2.99%
#06 - Hector "Toe" Blake 12 17.91%
#16 - Elmer Lach 3 4.48%
#22 - Steve Shutt 5 7.46%
#25 - Jacques Lemaire 5 7.46%
#38 - Georges Vézina 16 23.88%
Other... 7 10.45%
Voters: 67. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
09-14-2008, 02:51 PM
  #26
Habs10Habs
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Pretty impressive group of names in this poll. But if I had to choose one, I've always wanted to see Toe Blake's name up in the rafters.

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09-14-2008, 03:42 PM
  #27
BaseballCoach
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Originally Posted by HarryI View Post
He said Roy was never Canada's no1 goalie...I guess he forgot the 1998 Olympics.
You're right. The Bruins debacles were not the only events I wanted to forget.

From Wikipedia:

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Brodeur was selected as Team Canada's backup goalie to Patrick Roy for the 1998 Winter Olympics in Nagano, Japan, but did not get to play. According to his book, he has never forgiven Roy for demanding to start every game. Canada failed to win a medal after losing the Bronze medal match to Finland, a game in which many people thought Brodeur should have played.

In the 2002 Olympics at Salt Lake City, Utah, Brodeur won gold for Canada, playing in every game except the tournament opener against Sweden. He had the best GAA in the tournament and went undefeated, stopping 31 of 33 shots in the Gold Medal victory over Team USA.

He then led Team Canada to a World Cup of Hockey championship in 2004, allowing only 5 goals in 5 games. He led all goalies in GAA and save percentage while going undefeated. He had another impressive performance for the team at the world hockey championships in the following year. After this, The Sports Forecaster 2005–06 said the following:

"Brodeur is arguably the top goaltender in the world right now. Fresh off a World Cup win in 2004, and another strong performance at the 2005 IIHF World hockey championships. Also, he's still among the best puck-handling goaltenders in the game, though the NHL's new rule changes may somewhat alter that effectiveness."

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09-14-2008, 05:50 PM
  #28
mabus
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Originally Posted by jdmef8vtec View Post
I think the last # retired under Gillett will be Koivu, his community contributions are second tp none, I think he retires a Hab, and I think George would like nothing more then to see Koivu's # up there. Maybe not within 4 yrs., but Saku's # will be the last for a long time.
Name the last Hab to get his number retired because of their community contributions...... get back to me

Seriously can you imagine the induction ceremony? Usually you talk about the player's broken records, their stanley cups, their vezina or hart or norris trophies, their conn smyth's, how they led the entire league x number of seasons in goals, or points etc...

Now flash back to Koivu's ceremony.

Well.... he was good with charities, and.. um... he beat cancer... and um.... we like him...

Seriously ... Most seasons his own teammates ourscored him (and he's a SCORING ATTACKING FORWARD, not a DEFENSIVE player). He never led the league in any catagory. His teams won no championships, MOST of his teams never even made it to the playoffs. You can argue all you want who's fault it was that he was on such bad teams, but that only ignores the fact that HIS OWN TEAMMATES usually outscored him. Heck, even Oleg Petrov was a more prolific scorer than Koivu several times. Is Petrov's jersey going to be retired next?

Let's get real. The people who want Koivu's jersey retired are either too young or too old to remember what a >REAL< superstar is. I love Koivu, he's been a good player for us for many years, but he simply has not done anything worthy of retiring his jersey.

I mean my God.. if someone who plays as a SCORING FORWARD and never got more than 29 goals gets this honor, what do you do with a 60 goal scorer like Lafleur or Shutt... erect a temple at center ice?

Koivu was a GOOD player, not a GREAT player. He'll never have his number retired. Maybe he would on lesser teams, but not in Montreal.


Last edited by mabus: 09-14-2008 at 05:56 PM.
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09-14-2008, 06:29 PM
  #29
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is it me or each time they are retiring a jersey , the Habs loose the game after ?

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09-14-2008, 11:22 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
Name the last Hab to get his number retired because of their community contributions...... get back to me

Seriously can you imagine the induction ceremony? Usually you talk about the player's broken records, their stanley cups, their vezina or hart or norris trophies, their conn smyth's, how they led the entire league x number of seasons in goals, or points etc...

Now flash back to Koivu's ceremony.

Well.... he was good with charities, and.. um... he beat cancer... and um.... we like him...

Seriously ... Most seasons his own teammates ourscored him (and he's a SCORING ATTACKING FORWARD, not a DEFENSIVE player). He never led the league in any catagory. His teams won no championships, MOST of his teams never even made it to the playoffs. You can argue all you want who's fault it was that he was on such bad teams, but that only ignores the fact that HIS OWN TEAMMATES usually outscored him. Heck, even Oleg Petrov was a more prolific scorer than Koivu several times. Is Petrov's jersey going to be retired next?

Let's get real. The people who want Koivu's jersey retired are either too young or too old to remember what a >REAL< superstar is. I love Koivu, he's been a good player for us for many years, but he simply has not done anything worthy of retiring his jersey.

I mean my God.. if someone who plays as a SCORING FORWARD and never got more than 29 goals gets this honor, what do you do with a 60 goal scorer like Lafleur or Shutt... erect a temple at center ice?

Koivu was a GOOD player, not a GREAT player. He'll never have his number retired. Maybe he would on lesser teams, but not in Montreal.
I'm not saying I'd want Koivu's number retired, but your rant is offensive, considering what Koivu has meant to this team and what he still brings. We'll never really know what he would have done in his career without the injuries.

What I do know is that if perseverance, class, dedication and humility were kept as stats in this league Koivu would be one of the all time greats.

As for his stats, he's played this game as an undersized forward during the lowest scoring decade in the modern league, when he usually had 3 hands on his stick and only one was his. Had he played in the 70's on that habs team he would have had the stellar stats you hold so dear.

In a generation filled with me first individuals who only care about themselves Koivu has been a dedicated team player, putting the teams needs ahead of his own. Fans like you who constantly bash this man are one of the reasons why some star players avoid Mtl.

Numbers aren't retired because of individual statistics, they are retired because the player is exceptional, and usually statistics go hand in hand. Unfortunately the very things that make Koivu stand out in my mind as exceptional are also the reasons why he never had the chance to get the stats he most certainly was capable of.

I wouldn't be ashamed to watch his ceremony and see video of his community achievements, on the contrary, I'd be quite proud of the organization.

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09-15-2008, 06:31 AM
  #31
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According to the Hockey News 1998 listing of the 100 all-time greatest players in the NHL, the most deserving habs players whose numbers haven't yet been retired are in the following order: Newsy Lalonde, Bill Durnan, Joe Malone, Aurele Joliat, Toe Blake, Elmer Lach and George Vezina and all these players have a better rank in the 100 greatest players list than Serge Savard, Bob Gainey and Yvan Cournoyer.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...he_Hockey_News

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09-15-2008, 07:59 AM
  #32
mabus
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Originally Posted by habfaninvictoria View Post
I'm not saying I'd want Koivu's number retired, but your rant is offensive, considering what Koivu has meant to this team and what he still brings.
Quote:
In a generation filled with me first individuals who only care about themselves Koivu has been a dedicated team player, putting the teams needs ahead of his own. Fans like you who constantly bash this man are one of the reasons why some star players avoid Mtl.
I think you're over-reacting just a touch here. Like I said, I love Koivu, he's been the team's heart and soul for the better part of a decade now. Just because I don't think his jersey should be retired doesn't mean I hate him.

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I wouldn't be ashamed to watch his ceremony and see video of his community achievements, on the contrary, I'd be quite proud of the organization.
Well good for you, but personally I think if we begin retiring the jersey of players who work for the good of the community off the ice as the main criteria, we're going to run out of numbers in about a week. NHL hockey players are, more often than not, the most selfless and most giving of all athletes, they are simply the best kinds of people. Koivu has been exceptional in that regard amongst citizens of our community, but hardly exceptional by NHL standards. The fact is Hockey players by and large are fantastic warm kind people who break their backs to give back to their communities. As much as I love and respect Koivu for what he's done on and off the ice, I don't think community work qualifies one for having their jersey retired.

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09-15-2008, 10:49 AM
  #33
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In spite of all his injuries and illnesses, Saku was clearly the best Habs player in the last 13 years. During one of the darkest period in Habs' history, he was a second-line center playing on a first line. It's not his fault if the Habs' brass couldn't acquire better players during all those years. He certainly did his darn best but his production on the ice will be barely enough to qualify him for the Hall of Fame. Jacques Lemaire and Elmer Lach, both in the HOF, are more deserving centers to eventually get their numbers retired but we have to draw the line somewhere.

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09-15-2008, 12:07 PM
  #34
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I know there will be no more number retired for a long time but I'll play the game.

#03 – Émile « Butch » Bouchard
What's the fuzz around him. Only 1 time he was considered the best at his position. Never been considered for the most valuable player (i.e. finishing top 5 in Hart voting). Good captain. 3 all star teams. Being hold doesn't ensure you a place in the rafters. Would be by far the weakest player retired. NO

#05 – Guy Lapointe
Lapointe is underestimated. He was the offensive dynamo of the big three. However he wasn't better that Savard and Robinson. Can't say he really been a more important d-man to this franshise then Bouchard. NO

#06 – Hector « Toe » Blake
Great player. 1 Hart trophy. 3 times first all star, 2 times 2nd. Led the league in points 1 time. Won 2 cup as captain. Can make a good case for the player of the playoffs in the 1944 cup victory. Probably a greatest player than Dickie Moore. Had he been alive he would have been retired. A deserving player but I'd also like to see coaches like Irvin, Blake and Bowman honoured in some way for the 100th anniversary.

#16 – Elmer Lach
1 Hart trophy. A dominant passer. Led the league in points 2 times, is 1st all star team (3 times), 2nd all star team (2 times). He was the most important player in the 1946 Stanley Cup victory and would probably have won the Conn Smythe had it exist. In the Moore-Blake category. More deserving than Lapointe and Bouchard. Even Detroit would have retired his #16. Had he been french, the Ron Fournier campaign would be around him.

#22 – Steve Shutt
What?. Shutt made a career leeching off Lafleur, Lemaire and others. Only 3 times PPG in a big scoring era. Good scorer but overall he's a deserving but weak HOF induction. A Bernie Nicholls type of player. Not to be mention with the greats.

#25 – Jacques Lemaire
One of the cornerstone of the 70's Canadiens, I don't think Lemaire has the personal accomplishments than warrant a number to be raised. Never led the league in anything, hardly been a top 10 player and never was he the best at his position. Great leader but not enough ''star power'' or greatnest to be honoured.

#? – Georges Vézina
A Hab from 1910 to 1926. The greatest goalie in the NHA and the 2nd best in the early days of the NHL (behind Clint Benedict). Would probably have won 2 ''Vezinas'', including the 1st one in history. Vezina had the bad luck to die in a time when most teams didn't sewn numbers on their players. Mr. Vezina has therefore no # to retire. Having a trophy to his name is a heck of an honour, and a deserving one.

I'll add one name deserving of discussion.

#1 – Bill Durnan
The guy was a 6 times a 1st team all star in a 7 years career (Vezinas back then didn't meant much as they were a statistical award so I go with all star teams). He ended his career as easily the greatest goaltender of all-time. Won the cup in 1944 and 1946. Led 4 times the NHL in wins and receive significant Hart consideration (3rd in 46, 2nd in 49). Durnan has a very Drydenesque career and is IMO the greatest overlook in the Bell Centre rafters. A big YES for him.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-15-2008 at 06:29 PM.
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09-15-2008, 12:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
#22 – Steve Shutt
What?. Shutt made a career leeching off Lafleur, Lemaire and others. Only 3 times PPG in a big scoring era. Good scorer but overall he's a deserving but weak HOF induction. A Bernie Nicholls type of player. Not to be mention with the greats.
Dunno if I'd say he "Leeched" off Lafleur so much. He scored 60 goals one season, a record for most goals by a Left Winger. He was a heck of a goal scorer in his own right. Not saying he's better than Lafleur mind you, but I think he deserves some respect as a goal scorer. I'd be more than happy to see his jersey retired.

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09-15-2008, 01:13 PM
  #36
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There are 30 teams in the NHL compared with 6 prior to expansion and there were no Russian or other European players. The chances of being named to an all-star team in the old days were a lot better than they are today. The chances of scoring 50 or 60 goals in the 1970s were a lot higher than they are today because the dilution of talent resulting from a big influx of North American players (but not many Europeans) in that era hadn't settled down. Think for a minute about a comparison between Steve Shutt and later players such as Ovechkin or Selanne or Bure or Alexander Mogilny. There really isn't any. Shutt wasn't even as good as Mats Naslund.

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09-15-2008, 01:16 PM
  #37
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is it me or each time they are retiring a jersey , the Habs loose the game after ?
this year they don't take any chance, the ceremony is before a game against th bruins.

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09-15-2008, 02:09 PM
  #38
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Weztex two previous posts:

I agree with most of your comments Weztex except I'd put Lapointe ahead of Savard. He was a lot more explosive offensively and he also had more grit when the going got tough. The fact Savard was captain and won 2 more Cups gave him the edge.

Lach and Durnan were blatant omissions indeed. Everything you said about Lach is pertinent plus he was the NHL's all-time point scoring leader when he retired. He passed Bill Cowly of the Boston Bruins with point #549 on Feb 23rd 1952. He remained the NHL's career point-scoring leader until he was overtaken by Maurice Richard in 1953-54.

The Habs organisation didn't retire any numbers between Howie Morenz' number 7 in the thirties an Maurice Richard's number 9 in 1960. The Molsons, the Habs' presidents in the early fifties and also Frank Selke Sr were all sleeping at the switch. Durnan and Lach definitely deserved the honor.

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09-15-2008, 02:14 PM
  #39
mabus
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....Shutt wasn't even as good as Mats Naslund.
Talk about undervaluing a player. Shutt in his day scored more goals in a single season than .. ANY player in his position in the HISTORY OF THE NHL. That includes all the great players in his day. He was simply the Best LW of his era, and one of the best the game has ever seen. It's why he's in the Hall of fame and Naslund won't be.

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09-15-2008, 03:14 PM
  #40
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Talk about undervaluing a player. Shutt in his day scored more goals in a single season than .. ANY player in his position in the HISTORY OF THE NHL. That includes all the great players in his day. He was simply the Best LW of his era, and one of the best the game has ever seen. It's why he's in the Hall of fame and Naslund won't be.
Come on, he played in an expansion era of inflated statistics, where a Pierre Larouche could score 50 goals against the goaltenders of the day and the Habs were playing against some pretty sorry looking teams. I saw Shutt play many times. Did you?

He was not the best LW of his era. I'd take at least one of his contemporaries, such as Bill Barber, over Shutt. Barber, who came up the same year as Shutt but didn't have the advantage of playing on a line with Guy Lafleur, had a record of 420 goals and 463 assists for 883 points in 903 games (0.983 PPG) while Shutt had 424 goals and 393 assists for 817 points in 930 games (0.878 PPG). Barber was elected to the HOF 3 years before Shutt.

I can also mention Johnny Bucyk, whose career overlapped Shutt's but ended 6 years sooner, had 556 goals and 813 assists for 1369 points in 1540 games (0.889 PPG).

Your argument simply falls apart in the face of the facts.

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09-16-2008, 10:53 AM
  #41
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Weztex two previous posts:

I agree with most of your comments Weztex except I'd put Lapointe ahead of Savard. He was a lot more explosive offensively and he also had more grit when the going got tough. The fact Savard was captain and won 2 more Cups gave him the edge.
I'd like to comment on that. When Savard first came up in the late 1960s he was a great skater and brilliant offensively, good enough to have been a center if he chose to. He won the Conn Smythe trophy in 1969, killing the Bruins who by that time had Orr and Esposito. Tragically, he sustained a serious complex fracture of the leg. The first surgery was unsuccessful, so he was operated on again. The second operation helped, but he lost some of his skating ability. He compensated for that with his outstanding defensive play. He knew how to position himself so that a forward coming down the wing would have to take extra strides to get into scoring position. He was bigger and stronger than Lapointe and better defensively, although Lapointe was good too. While I'm at at, I'd like to mention Jacques Laperriere, one of the smartest defensive Dmen ever.

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09-16-2008, 05:58 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Weztex View Post
I know there will be no more number retired for a long time but I'll play the game.

#03 – Émile « Butch » Bouchard
What's the fuzz around him. Only 1 time he was considered the best at his position. Never been considered for the most valuable player (i.e. finishing top 5 in Hart voting). Good captain. 3 all star teams. Being hold doesn't ensure you a place in the rafters. Would be by far the weakest player retired. NO

#05 – Guy Lapointe
Lapointe is underestimated. He was the offensive dynamo of the big three. However he wasn't better that Savard and Robinson. Can't say he really been a more important d-man to this franshise then Bouchard. NO

.....
heretic !

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09-17-2008, 04:41 PM
  #43
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Come on, he played in an expansion era of inflated statistics, where a Pierre Larouche could score 50 goals against the goaltenders of the day and the Habs were playing against some pretty sorry looking teams. I saw Shutt play many times. Did you?
You do realise that you're calling Guy Lafleur's 60 goal performance great, while dismissing Shutt's 60 goal performance as being unimpressive right?

Fact is, I don't care what era it is. 60 goals in the NHL in ANY previous era has >ALWAYS< been impressive. Since you ask, yes, I did see Shutty play, and i was sure as heck impressed with him, so was the Hall of fame for whatever it's worth.

Quote:
He was not the best LW of his era. I'd take at least one of his contemporaries, such as Bill Barber, over Shutt.....

I can also mention Johnny Bucyk, whose career overlapped Shutt's but ended 6 years sooner, had 556 goals and 813 assists for 1369 points in 1540 games (0.889 PPG).

Your argument simply falls apart in the face of the facts.
I dunno, you've compared Shutty to Bernie Nichols, and Markus Naslund. I just don't see it. Shutty broke the NHL record for most goals in a single season... I think that's a bigger accomplishment than you're acknowledging.

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09-17-2008, 05:18 PM
  #44
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I'd like to comment on that. When Savard first came up in the late 1960s he was a great skater and brilliant offensively, good enough to have been a center if he chose to. He won the Conn Smythe trophy in 1969, killing the Bruins who by that time had Orr and Esposito. Tragically, he sustained a serious complex fracture of the leg. The first surgery was unsuccessful, so he was operated on again. The second operation helped, but he lost some of his skating ability. He compensated for that with his outstanding defensive play. He knew how to position himself so that a forward coming down the wing would have to take extra strides to get into scoring position. He was bigger and stronger than Lapointe and better defensively, although Lapointe was good too. While I'm at at, I'd like to mention Jacques Laperriere, one of the smartest defensive Dmen ever.
A healthy Savard would've been on that level just below Orr where you find the Potvin's , Harvey's and Bourque's but the injuries pushed him to the level just below that.

Still, I think Guy Lapointe gets pushed to #3 of the big 3 too easily. I loved his game, he was really proactive physically, and would play with a lot of emotion, great offensive jump, as good a point man as anyone.

He didn't have the pure vision and smarts that Savard did, but really neither did Robinson. The difference between those 3 was so miniscule, it makes great tavern talk. Lapointe usually played with the youngest guy too, whether it was Nyrop,Langway or Englom.

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Originally Posted by mabus View Post
You do realise that you're calling Guy Lafleur's 60 goal performance great, while dismissing Shutt's 60 goal performance as being unimpressive right?

Fact is, I don't care what era it is. 60 goals in the NHL in ANY previous era has >ALWAYS< been impressive. Since you ask, yes, I did see Shutty play, and i was sure as heck impressed with him, so was the Hall of fame for whatever it's worth.



I dunno, you've compared Shutty to Bernie Nichols, and Markus Naslund. I just don't see it. Shutty broke the NHL record for most goals in a single season... I think that's a bigger accomplishment than you're acknowledging.
I think we make the mistake of gauging players from great teams too easily. A guy like Shutt was going to be a bigtime goal scorer on any team. Maybe he wasn't as complete as a Bill Barber but he was up there. ON a great team though, he had a role and it was to play off Lafleur. I don't consider that leeching in any way.

Risebrough and Lambert were 3rd or 4th line players on that team and played the disturber role. Both played higher up the food chain when their teams weren't as good, Riser in Calgary and Mario on the mid 80's Habs.

You can't dismiss them as merely grinders because they provided exactly what the team needed.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-17-2008 at 11:49 PM.
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09-17-2008, 05:42 PM
  #45
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I dunno, you've compared Shutty to Bernie Nichols, and Markus Naslund. I just don't see it. Shutty broke the NHL record for most goals in a single season... I think that's a bigger accomplishment than you're acknowledging.
Corey didn't compared Shutt to Nicholls, I did. He compared him to Mats Naslund, not Markus. IMO I compared Shutt to Nicholls in the sense that, while being good players, both never dominate and needed to be surrounded to reach their full potential. They were the kind of player that, had they land in the wrong environnement, would have probably never made it to such heights. Guys like Lafleur, Lach, Dionne or even Kovalchuk can succeed anywhere. Shutt and Nicholls are to a point great but expandable players.

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heretic !
Making things in perspective is what I call it.

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09-17-2008, 05:50 PM
  #46
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Corey didn't compared Shutt to Nicholls, I did. He compared him to Mats Naslund, not Markus. IMO I compared Shutt to Nicholls in the sense that, while being good players, both never dominate and needed to be surrounded to reach their full potential. They were the kind of player that, had they land in the wrong environnement, would have probably never made it to such heights. Guys like Lafleur, Lach, Dionne or even Kovalchuk can succeed anywhere. Shutt and Nicholls are to a point great but expandable players.



Making things in perspective is what I call it.
There aren't that many of what I call 'stand alone' players, Lafleur was one and Shutt wasn't. I don't think that can be argued. He would have been a top player on any team, probably not that far from what he ended up as, a 10-12 year career averaging 30-35 goals, but obviously his team enhnaces his fame.

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