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Old
09-17-2008, 09:57 AM
  #51
Kosikarzzz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Your list actually doesn't really offer much if you are expecting a 1st pairing (legitimate NHL level #2 defenseman) which is who you would want if you were looking for a pairing partner to complement Chara. Beside being a puck carrier, that player will have to have speed, a good shot, a playmaker and comfortably handle plus 20 minutes game after game.

Mathieu Schnieder is available on waivers, but he plays left side defense and at 39, he is now having trouble loggiing big minutes. Also at $5.625 million, I don't think the Bruins can afford him. Unfortunately $5 to $5.5 million is not unreasonable for a #2 defenseman these days.

As I said, if Salo is willing to waive his NTC, the Canucks have enough depth that they could trade him for help on the forward lines. Of your list, the only player that I saw to be interesting to the Canucks would be Zach Hamill, but he by himself would not be enough to get you a player of Salo's ability so you would have to also include the 2010 first round pick. Even then Gillis may back away because we would be trading away a major current roster player for players who won't start to contribute to the team for many years down the road, if at all. As the Canucks have $10 million still in cap space, besides Hamill & the pick, I wouldn't be surprised if Gilis also demanded a roster body to be included. Someone like Axelsson or Ference. Seems a lot for a 34 year old defenseman, but Salo is a level of defenseman that is highly sought after in the NHL & hard to come by. Over the past 5 years he has averaged over 30 points a season, plays over 22 minutes a night and is a bargain at just #3.5 million for the next three seasons. All this while still maintaining sound defensive play. The thing is we have five defensemen qualified to play as a #2 defenseman on the Canucks. We can afford to trade one because we have a bunch of prospects developing on the Moose who can't a roster spot on the Canucks.
I think you over estimate Sami Salo. You are asking for Hamill, 1st rounder & Axcellson or Alberts???

Biatch u crazy

I like Salo but he is 34 years old and if you would turn down a chance to flip an aging vet for a young 1st round prospect like Hamill you need to get off the juice. Salo is good and I have always liked him but he will be decreasing in value as the years go by. A 37 year old @ 3.5mill may or may not be a good player but at that time Hamill should be better.

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09-17-2008, 11:36 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Bieksa is a good prospect, but his style of play doesn't match what the Boston fan said the Bruins were looking for. Edler or Krajicek would be a better match, but Gillis wants the team to go in a youth movement so I doubt any of the three would be on the table unless Boston wanted to overpay.
Bieksa is not a prospect!

Umm not sure about a youth movement.

He's been grabbing people thats just finished their entry level contract so its more of a 'just when they should be hitting their stride' time.

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09-17-2008, 02:08 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Kosikarzzz View Post
I think you over estimate Sami Salo. You are asking for Hamill, 1st rounder & Axcellson or Alberts???

Biatch u crazy

I like Salo but he is 34 years old and if you would turn down a chance to flip an aging vet for a young 1st round prospect like Hamill you need to get off the juice. Salo is good and I have always liked him but he will be decreasing in value as the years go by. A 37 year old @ 3.5mill may or may not be a good player but at that time Hamill should be better.
Oh, I fully realise the talent level of Hamill, or at least the potential he could reach, but Hamill is still 19 years old (20 in six days). Even at a reasonable development pace he is not likely to even make any NHL team as a 4th line rookie for another 2 to 3 years. If he does make the team tthen, he will go through a normal eperience learning curve that all but the superstars pretty much go through. Hamill is a quality prospect, but he is no Crosby or Kovalchuk. That means he will not begin to become an impact player until 4 to 5 years from now. Any player drafted with the 2010 pick would be even more years down the road. The average tenure of an NHL GM is 3 to 4 years so to Gillis he would be trading a key roster player for futures that may benefit the Canucks eventually, but he himself may never see the results while he is with the team.

The hardest player to acquire in the NHL is a superstar goalie. They are rare. The Canucks have one, Boston doesn't, but Boston has two serviceable #1 NHL level goalies so they will do, unless you come up against one of the superstars in the playoffs. Unless a team has a very foolish GM (Luongo was traded twice), teams won't trade a superstar goalie, so the only way to get one is generally through the draft and a long development process. Trading average #1 NHL level gaolies is quite common though.

The next hardest player for a team to acquire is a true #1 NHL level defenseman. Boston has one in Chara. The Canucks don't have a true #1 NHL level defenseman, but they have three true #2 NHL level defensemen in Salo, Ohlund and Mitchell plus they have two close to reaching that level (two or three years) in Bieksa and Edler.
Boston doesn't have a true #2 NHL level defenseman. The closest they have is Stuart who is still playing like a #3 or #4 level defenceman and Wideman who plays like a #4 or #5 specialist. Teams don't trade #1 defensemen unless forced to (Pronger). Either you develop them through the system or acquire them as a UFA (Chara, Neidermayer, Jovocop). Team will occationally trade a #2 level defenceman, but they carry high trade value and are seldom involved in a quanty for quality trade like what has been suggested here. They are usually in a major one for one trade. A true #2 defenseman either pairs with the team's #1 or anchors the team's second pairing. He has to be capable of logging major minutes night after night and should the team's #1 defenseman be injured, the #2 should be able to step in and carry the load of a #1 for at least half a season.

The next hardest player for a team to acquire is a true NHL first line center. Again generally the team has to draft and develop that player or acquire one as a UFA. Hamill has the potential to become a first line center, but he is still 4 to 5 years away at least. Other than Henrik Sedin, the Canucks don't have another first line center nor do they have any prospects developing. Both White and Hodgson are projected to be quality second line centers. If Hamill was closer to reaching first line center potential, I could see a #2 defenseman - first line center swap, but he is not close. A good pick would have to be added.

It is unlikely Salo will be available because he would have to waive a NTC and he likes Vancouver and the team. But your comments that he is too old and on the decline just doesn't hold water. Salo just turned 34 fifteen days ago. The better NHL defensemen, & Salo is one, generally are in their prime between 30 to 38 after which they decline rapidly (Schnieder at age 39). Not only is Salo mid prime, he is signed for the next 3 seasons very much below the going rate for a #2 or #3 NHL defenseman.

If the Bruins are still in a rebuilding mode, then they keep the young players like Hamill, but if Boston feels they now have a competitive team, the team's acheilies heel is their defense. The team has one strong defenseman and a whole bunch of defensemen playing at a #5, #6 or #7 NHL level (whether they have more potential to play better or not). I'm thinking Gillis and AV are more likely to be happier to keep Salo anyway.


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09-17-2008, 02:13 PM
  #54
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Bieksa is not a prospect!

Umm not sure about a youth movement.

He's been grabbing people thats just finished their entry level contract so its more of a 'just when they should be hitting their stride' time.
No he's not, but he's not yet a vet either.

Gillis has said that if Sundin doesn't sign,the team is commited to developing the team's prospects so it is prudent for the team to leave room for them when they are ready to move up either now, or over the next two seasons. That is why he doesn't want to sign UFA's including Sundin long term. One or two seasons max.

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09-17-2008, 03:41 PM
  #55
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Oh, I fully realise the talent level of Hamill, or at least the potential he could reach, but Hamill is still 19 years old (20 in six days). Even at a reasonable development pace he is not likely to even make any NHL team as a 4th line rookie for another 2 to 3 years. If he does make the team tthen, he will go through a normal eperience learning curve that all but the superstars pretty much go through. Hamill is a quality prospect, but he is no Crosby or Kovalchuk. That means he will not begin to become an impact player until 4 to 5 years from now. Any player drafted with the 2010 pick would be even more years down the road. The average tenure of an NHL GM is 3 to 4 years so to Gillis he would be trading a key roster player for futures that may benefit the Canucks eventually, but he himself may never see the results while he is with the team.

The hardest player to acquire in the NHL is a superstar goalie. They are rare. The Canucks have one, Boston doesn't, but Boston has two serviceable #1 NHL level goalies so they will do, unless you come up against one of the superstars in the playoffs. Unless a team has a very foolish GM (Luongo was traded twice), teams won't trade a superstar goalie, so the only way to get one is generally through the draft and a long development process. Trading average #1 NHL level gaolies is quite common though.

The next hardest player for a team to acquire is a true #1 NHL level defenseman. Boston has one in Chara. The Canucks don't have a true #1 NHL level defenseman, but they have three true #2 NHL level defensemen in Salo, Ohlund and Mitchell plus they have two close to reaching that level (two or three years) in Bieksa and Edler.
Boston doesn't have a true #2 NHL level defenseman. The closest they have is Stuart who is still playing like a #3 or #4 level defenceman and Wideman who plays like a #4 or #5 specialist. Teams don't trade #1 defensemen unless forced to (Pronger). Either you develop them through the system or acquire them as a UFA (Chara, Neidermayer, Jovocop). Team will occationally trade a #2 level defenceman, but they carry high trade value and are seldom involved in a quanty for quality trade like what has been suggested here. They are usually in a major one for one trade. A true #2 defenseman either pairs with the team's #1 or anchors the team's second pairing. He has to be capable of logging major minutes night after night and should the team's #1 defenseman be injured, the #2 should be able to step in and carry the load of a #1 for at least half a season.

The next hardest player for a team to acquire is a true NHL first line center. Again generally the team has to draft and develop that player or acquire one as a UFA. Hamill has the potential to become a first line center, but he is still 4 to 5 years away at least. Other than Henrik Sedin, the Canucks don't have another first line center nor do they have any prospects developing. Both White and Hodgson are projected to be quality second line centers. If Hamill was closer to reaching first line center potential, I could see a #2 defenseman - first line center swap, but he is not close. A good pick would have to be added.

It is unlikely Salo will be available because he would have to waive a NTC and he likes Vancouver and the team. But your comments that he is too old and on the decline just doesn't hold water. Salo just turned 34 fifteen days ago. The better NHL defensemen, & Salo is one, generally are in their prime between 30 to 38 after which they decline rapidly (Schnieder at age 39). Not only is Salo mid prime, he is signed for the next 3 seasons very much below the going rate for a #2 or #3 NHL defenseman.

If the Bruins are still in a rebuilding mode, then they keep the young players like Hamill, but if Boston feels they now have a competitive team, the team's acheilies heel is their defense. The team has one strong defenseman and a whole bunch of defensemen playing at a #5, #6 or #7 NHL level (whether they have more potential to play better or not). I'm thinking Gillis and AV are more likely to be happier to keep Salo anyway.
You lose all credit right there. If you watched any of Dennis Wideman last year you'd realize he's a capable #3 if not low-end #2 and is still young. I have no idea what you mean by "specialist". And you're overrating Salo's value if you ask me. He's missed 15-23 games each year since the lockout and is getting up there in age.

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09-17-2008, 04:41 PM
  #56
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How about,

To Boston: Phillipe Boucher

To Dallas: Tommy Cross and Boston's 5th

Dallas gets a young defenseman several years away, sheds salary and picks up a badly needed defensive prospect.

Boston gets a legit PP guy, a good puck mover who plays the body well, and an excellent teammate at a very reasonable salary of 2.5 million.

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09-17-2008, 05:11 PM
  #57
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You lose all credit right there. If you watched any of Dennis Wideman last year you'd realize he's a capable #3 if not low-end #2 and is still young. I have no idea what you mean by "specialist". And you're overrating Salo's value if you ask me. He's missed 15-23 games each year since the lockout and is getting up there in age.
Specialist - actually a positive - I think Wideman is a smart player and can be a good power play (specialist) quarterback. Being on the Westcoast, I don't follow the Bruins game by game. The games I watched, I felt Wideman was not playing well. That doesn't mean I don't think he's not capable or at least potentially capable. Also I'm not saying how he's used on the Bruins, only how he plays comparable to what is expected from a #3 - #5 around the league. Ohlund is used as Vancouver's #1, but his skill level and how plays is like a #2 as does Mitchell and as does Salo. On any given night any of those three play like they are the best defenseman on the Canucks, but over the season none control a game like Chara can or Jovo did. Defensively though, they often play better throughout the year than either. They just don't have that special something that makes them stand out and determine the outcome of a game once in a while.

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09-17-2008, 05:27 PM
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Specialist - actually a positive - I think Wideman is a smart player and can be a good power play (specialist) quarterback. Being on the Westcoast, I don't follow the Bruins game by game. The games I watched, I felt Wideman was not playing well. That doesn't mean I don't think he's not capable or at least potentially capable. Also I'm not saying how he's used on the Bruins, only how he plays comparable to what is expected from a #3 - #5 around the league. Ohlund is used as Vancouver's #1, but his skill level and how plays is like a #2 as does Mitchell and as does Salo. On any given night any of those three play like they are the best defenseman on the Canucks, but over the season none control a game like Chara can or Jovo did. Defensively though, they often play better throughout the year than either. They just don't have that special something that makes them stand out and determine the outcome of a game once in a while.
I thought Wideman improved tremendously last year, he was much more than a specialist.

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09-17-2008, 06:00 PM
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Specialist - actually a positive - I think Wideman is a smart player and can be a good power play (specialist) quarterback. Being on the Westcoast, I don't follow the Bruins game by game. The games I watched, I felt Wideman was not playing well. That doesn't mean I don't think he's not capable or at least potentially capable. Also I'm not saying how he's used on the Bruins, only how he plays comparable to what is expected from a #3 - #5 around the league. Ohlund is used as Vancouver's #1, but his skill level and how plays is like a #2 as does Mitchell and as does Salo. On any given night any of those three play like they are the best defenseman on the Canucks, but over the season none control a game like Chara can or Jovo did. Defensively though, they often play better throughout the year than either. They just don't have that special something that makes them stand out and determine the outcome of a game once in a while.
I read someone being called a PP specialist as a bad thing because it implies that the rest of his game isn't that great, which it actually is, his play is good in all three zones and he's a strong passer. And I wasn't debating Ohlund, Mitchell and Salo all being #2 defenseman.

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09-17-2008, 06:01 PM
  #60
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Schneider?

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09-17-2008, 06:03 PM
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Schneider?
Cap room becomes a problem.

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09-17-2008, 06:05 PM
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To Toronto: Kessel, 1st 09, Zach Hamil

To Boston: Kaberle

Chara-Kaberle would just be epic, best pairing in the league IMO

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09-17-2008, 06:15 PM
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To Toronto: Kessel, 1st 09, Zach Hamil

To Boston: Kaberle

Chara-Kaberle would just be epic, best pairing in the league IMO
I'm not a Boston fan but I'm not sure I'd trade Kessel and Hamil straight up for Kaberle let alone add a first as well.

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09-17-2008, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Hi-wayman View Post
Specialist - actually a positive - I think Wideman is a smart player and can be a good power play (specialist) quarterback. Being on the Westcoast, I don't follow the Bruins game by game. The games I watched, I felt Wideman was not playing well. That doesn't mean I don't think he's not capable or at least potentially capable. Also I'm not saying how he's used on the Bruins, only how he plays comparable to what is expected from a #3 - #5 around the league.
Wideman was unbelievable for the B's last year. He had to work his way into the top pair and that took until December, but from then on, he literally played 29+ minutes a night of plus hockey. He actually led the B's in +/- for most of the year. He plays the PP, the PK. And when Chara went down, he carried the defense, double shifting with two different partners (one being a rookie) and was still a plus player. Most of his points (like 31 of his 36) came after December, after he was added to the PP. So because of that, because he'll be starting off on the PP this year, I expect another jump in offensive production.

In short, he's a VERY good #3, and a borderline/potential #2.

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09-17-2008, 06:46 PM
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Cap room becomes a problem.
Now that Schnieder has cleared waivers and likely will be recalled back, personally I (even as a Canucks fan) think he would be a better deal for Boston than Salo. Salo is younger, but as a temporary fix, the Ducks will have topay half his salary if recalled. Schnieders play might be slipping a bit, but he's still a good #2 - #3 defenseman and doesn't cost you anything in trade.

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09-17-2008, 06:48 PM
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Wideman was unbelievable for the B's last year. He had to work his way into the top pair and that took until December, but from then on, he literally played 29+ minutes a night of plus hockey. He actually led the B's in +/- for most of the year. He plays the PP, the PK. And when Chara went down, he carried the defense, double shifting with two different partners (one being a rookie) and was still a plus player. Most of his points (like 31 of his 36) came after December, after he was added to the PP. So because of that, because he'll be starting off on the PP this year, I expect another jump in offensive production.

In short, he's a VERY good #3, and a borderline/potential #2.
Well that's good to hear. Sounds like you have a keeper. The Bruins have been out of the limelight too long.

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09-17-2008, 06:58 PM
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Now that Schnieder has cleared waivers and likely will be recalled back, personally I (even as a Canucks fan) think he would be a better deal for Boston than Salo. Salo is younger, but as a temporary fix, the Ducks will have topay half his salary if recalled. Schnieders play might be slipping a bit, but he's still a good #2 - #3 defenseman and doesn't cost you anything in trade.
No re-call waivers in the off season.
If he's claimed at any point until the start of the season, the Ducks are clear of him and the team claiming covers 100% of his salary.

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09-17-2008, 06:59 PM
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I read someone being called a PP specialist as a bad thing because it implies that the rest of his game isn't that great, which it actually is, his play is good in all three zones and he's a strong passer. And I wasn't debating Ohlund, Mitchell and Salo all being #2 defenseman.
No, I meant it as a compliment. Generally to me it means the player is much more versitile and is usually a good two way player. It also sounds like the few games I watched of the Bruins were off days for him and he actually has a good future in the NHL. I might be a Canuck fan, but I like to see good talent on all teams. It means the hockey will be entertaining.

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09-17-2008, 07:02 PM
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No re-call waivers in the off season.
If he's claimed at any point until the start of the season, the Ducks are clear of him and the team claiming covers 100% of his salary.
well that's a bummer. I can't see his value at $5.635 mil, but at half that he would have been a good pickup. What if they recall him during the season?

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09-17-2008, 07:03 PM
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well that's a bummer. I can't see his value at $5.635 mil, but at half that he would have been a good pickup.
Yeah, as a Bruins fan, I'm not sure I want him, but at 2.8 it would have been a lot more tempting.

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09-17-2008, 07:06 PM
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well that's a bummer. I can't see his value at $5.635 mil, but at half that he would have been a good pickup. What if they recall him during the season?
He will definitely be traded before then. Anaheim has to get under the cap before the season starts.

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09-17-2008, 07:06 PM
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Yeah, as a Bruins fan, I'm not sure I want him, but at 2.8 it would have been a lot more tempting.
We had to play against him last year. He still has lots to contrribute.

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09-17-2008, 07:16 PM
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He will definitely be traded before then. Anaheim has to get under the cap before the season starts.
The Ducks can get under the cap by trading or demoting a lesser player ($1.3 Mil cap space) and then recall Schnieder during the season. Burke might be more willing to eat half his salary than give up picks or whatever he would have to include to get someone to take Schnieder in trade. What he wants to do is sign Selane, but that could wait until after the season started.

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09-17-2008, 07:19 PM
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I'm surprised the Bruins didn't give up a third or foruth rounder to land Schneider , I was shocked he was put on waivers and even more so he cleared. The trade market right now is non existent.

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09-17-2008, 07:21 PM
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We had to play against him last year. He still has lots to contrribute.
I wouldn't argue that.
Realistically though, we aren't contenders this year, and I'd rather Lashoff got some ice time and started to become a full time NHL'er.

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