If he is so horrible defensively and so good offensively, why isn't he a forward?
I've been saying since we first saw him that he'd be a hell of an energy guy as a forward. I think he'd throw his body around and would be relentless. With all the D prospects we have it's something I would consider.
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Originally Posted by 417
Because he's 18-19 and still has tons of room for improvement defensively...
If you were bad defensively in juniors there are big chances you'll be even worst once you hit the NHL. It's not a switch you just turn on.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-18-2008 at 12:23 AM.
Like some said, he's still young and room for improvement. I remember, Sabres were saying the same thing about Brian Campbell while still with the 67's, and with patience and work, turned out to be better in his own end.
Like some said, he's still young and room for improvement. I remember, Sabres were saying the same thing about Brian Campbell while still with the 67's, and with patience and work, turned out to be better in his own end.
Some wanted to convert Brent Burns to a forward after he was drafted, I'm sure the Wild are glad that they didn't follow through on that plan.
Burns was a forward until he was drafted (he may have played defense previously, but he mainly played RW during his draft year), and converted by Lemaire while in the NHL.
Subban isn't bad defensively at all. He just takes so many chances in juniors, knowing he'll more than likely have the speed to recover from most of his own mistakes. People are concerned that this is something he won't get away with in the pros and rightly so. He just needs to tone it down and adjust his game a little.
I'd much rather see a guy that has to tone it down than the opposite!
Because he was good offensively you think he was bad defensively in juniors? Wrong.
But we are also talking about D. Sourray never got better on D. And watching Suban play you see him get beat in similar ways. But the main point I'm trying to make is the following. We have tons of D prospects if they all make it to the NHL in the next 2-3 seasons we'll run out of spots. By moving one as a forward we deepen our forward pool and right now that's not a bad thing.
Because he was good offensively you think he was bad defensively in juniors? Wrong.
But we are also talking about D. Sourray never got better on D. And watching Suban play you see him get beat in similar ways. But the main point I'm trying to make is the following. We have tons of D prospects if they all make it to the NHL in the next 2-3 seasons we'll run out of spots. By moving one as a forward we deepen our forward pool and right now that's not a bad thing.
Souray could never skate like Subban can.
Subban is improving.... he can be converted to the wing later if necessary. No need to do it now.
I think we are very deep on the wing with prospects and young talent. Even though they aren't prospects anymore I still consider AKost, SKost, Lats, as good winger talent.
If we are talking about converting him to centre, then maybe it helps us down the line.. as centre is a tougher position to learn then wing, and it is the spot we are weak. But if its to create a winger, i think it can be done later.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 09-18-2008 at 11:24 AM.
Subban is improving.... he can be converted to the wing later if necessary. No need to do it now.
I think we are very deep on the wing with prospects and young talent. Even though they aren't prospects anymore I still consider AKost, SKost, Lats, as good winger talent.
If we are talking about converting him to centre, then maybe it helps us down the line.. as centre is a tougher position to learn then wing, and it is the spot we are weak. But if its to create a winger, i think it can be done later.
All I said is it's something I'd consider. If you ask me between trading on our D prospects just so we dont lose him for nothing or trying PK up front I think I'd try the later.
People who say that Subban is BAD defensively just read a 3-year old article and decides to stick with it. From the games I've seen last year, defensively, I prefer Subban to Weber. Difference is that Subban take chances more than Weber and his mistakes appear bigger than they are. Weber's defensive play is purely positional but is also less energetic than Subban. And while we saw some deficiencies as far as Subban's stick work in front of the net maybe costing a goal, I also saw Weber being dominated on the boards and in front of the net and is not as energetic as the kid. Have confidence in both that they have what it takes to make it. But I'm just saying Subban is not as bad as people want him to be. He did a lot of improvement.
And I have a clear example of this. Was this during the Memorial Cup that Subban decided to take the puck from his zone to the offensive zone, shot, missed the net, the puck came immediately to the other team who then had a 2 on 1 on that play and scored. Then the analysts started to say that it was Subban's fault. Okay, maybe if you have a rush like this, be sure to at least shot on the goalie. But how about a winger taking Subban's place on D 'cause clearly, Subban was going to get himself out of position, still nobody took his place.
It all has to do with maturity and the kid is having fun but also realize that his rushes and mistakes will be costly in the NHL. Still, in the NHL whenever he wants to have those Bobby Orr rushes, a winger will then take his place on D.....
All I said is it's something I'd consider. If you ask me between trading on our D prospects just so we dont lose him for nothing or trying PK up front I think I'd try the later.
I'm not saying it isn't an option.... I'm just saying its not something we need to do right now. He can become a winger later if it becomes necessary. We never know though D prospects are more valuable than Winger prospects, and Fischer, McD, Weber, Tank, Emelin, or one or more of the others may still bust on D.
As far as this season goes you'd have to convince the Belleville Bulls to move him... I doubt that would be easy. The Bulls are trying to win too... and we don't really have control over them the way we do with the Bulldogs.
Regardless, I still say the only reason to move him immediately is if you think he can be a top 2 NHL centre. If its to be a winger... or a third/4th line centre then you might as well leave him on D.
The conversion to wing from defence or centre is easier than converting to centre, or converting to defence.
I'm not saying it isn't an option.... I'm just saying its not something we need to do right now. He can become a winger later if it becomes necessary. We never know though D prospects are more valuable than Winger prospects, and Fischer, McD, Weber, Tank, Emelin, or one or more of the others may still bust on D.
As far as this season goes you'd have to convince the Belleville Bulls to move him... I doubt that would be easy. The Bulls are trying to win too... and we don't really have control over them the way we do with the Bulldogs.
Regardless, I still say the only reason to move him immediately is if you think he can be a top 2 NHL centre. If its to be a winger... or a third/4th line centre then you might as well leave him on D.
The conversion to wing from defence or centre is easier than converting to centre, or converting to defence.
It's obviously only something you can do once he's in your farm system. I never talked about doing it now. I should add a precision to my statement. "It's Something I'd consider in the foreseeable future if the conditions are right."
I dont know why everyone is jumping on this...it's not like I said "It's something that should be done now".
People who say that Subban is BAD defensively just read a 3-year old article and decides to stick with it. From the games I've seen last year, defensively, I prefer Subban to Weber. Difference is that Subban take chances more than Weber and his mistakes appear bigger than they are. Weber's defensive play is purely positional but is also less energetic than Subban. And while we saw some deficiencies as far as Subban's stick work in front of the net maybe costing a goal, I also saw Weber being dominated on the boards and in front of the net and is not as energetic as the kid. Have confidence in both that they have what it takes to make it. But I'm just saying Subban is not as bad as people want him to be. He did a lot of improvement.
And I have a clear example of this. Was this during the Memorial Cup that Subban decided to take the puck from his zone to the offensive zone, shot, missed the net, the puck came immediately to the other team who then had a 2 on 1 on that play and scored. Then the analysts started to say that it was Subban's fault. Okay, maybe if you have a rush like this, be sure to at least shot on the goalie. But how about a winger taking Subban's place on D 'cause clearly, Subban was going to get himself out of position, still nobody took his place.
It all has to do with maturity and the kid is having fun but also realize that his rushes and mistakes will be costly in the NHL. Still, in the NHL whenever he wants to have those Bobby Orr rushes, a winger will then take his place on D.....
Yep I remember that play. Of all people it should have been Shawn Matthias to drop back but it just ended up being a mental breakdown.
But people are starting to hit the nail on the head. It isnt that hes bad defensively, its just he takes chances. He likes rushing the puck and is encouraged to do so in the OHL. Im sure coaches in the AHL will change that and he will become more responsible while still the major threat he is on offense.
Subban isn't bad defensively at all. He just takes so many chances in juniors, knowing he'll more than likely have the speed to recover from most of his own mistakes. People are concerned that this is something he won't get away with in the pros and rightly so. He just needs to tone it down and adjust his game a little.
I'd much rather see a guy that has to tone it down than the opposite!
I work for the Bulls and get to watch every home game so I saw Subban live over 40 times last year and then a dozen more times on TV, and I just want to quote this because it's bang on.
In his own end, he's solid. Strong along the boards and doesn't get caught out of position often. The only time he gets into trouble is between the blue lines when he's on the rush. He'll end up losing the puck or turning it over and getting caught.
As for turning it down, I watched him very closely in the WJC because of his Habs and Bulls connection and as I'm sure most of you remember, he was basically the #7 defense man. I was impressed with the way he played at that level. He kept it really simple and didn't mess around, didn't take any chances. He's got excellent coaches in Belleville and once he gets to Hamilton he'll get exposed to Lever, he'll be fine.
It's obviously only something you can do once he's in your farm system. I never talked about doing it now. I should add a precision to my statement. "It's Something I'd consider in the foreseeable future if the conditions are right."
I dont know why everyone is jumping on this...it's not like I said "It's something that should be done now".
Ya, let's turn him into Dandenault!
Haha, I'm jk. I also asked why we couldn't turn him into a FW once and I got jumped on.
I can't really comment on anything since all I've seen of him were his few shifts at the WJC.
People who say that Subban is BAD defensively just read a 3-year old article and decides to stick with it. From the games I've seen last year, defensively, I prefer Subban to Weber. Difference is that Subban take chances more than Weber and his mistakes appear bigger than they are. Weber's defensive play is purely positional but is also less energetic than Subban. And while we saw some deficiencies as far as Subban's stick work in front of the net maybe costing a goal, I also saw Weber being dominated on the boards and in front of the net and is not as energetic as the kid. Have confidence in both that they have what it takes to make it. But I'm just saying Subban is not as bad as people want him to be. He did a lot of improvement.
And I have a clear example of this. Was this during the Memorial Cup that Subban decided to take the puck from his zone to the offensive zone, shot, missed the net, the puck came immediately to the other team who then had a 2 on 1 on that play and scored. Then the analysts started to say that it was Subban's fault. Okay, maybe if you have a rush like this, be sure to at least shot on the goalie. But how about a winger taking Subban's place on D 'cause clearly, Subban was going to get himself out of position, still nobody took his place.
It all has to do with maturity and the kid is having fun but also realize that his rushes and mistakes will be costly in the NHL. Still, in the NHL whenever he wants to have those Bobby Orr rushes, a winger will then take his place on D.....
I also thought Subban looked better defensively than Weber. Subban may not be great defensively, but I think he is decent and strong enough to make the NHL as a defenseman. He has the hockey sense to read the plays, but holy crap does he take risks, like you mentioned. These risks also caused some bad penalties as well. That is why players go to the AHL. To fix technical and metal parts of their game. Just look at Valentenko, started the season taking huge risks by going for the big hits. Took himself out of position a lot. When he settled down, he was very good.
