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Can a contract be rejected for being too low?

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Old
09-18-2008, 03:07 PM
  #1
Harold Snepsts
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Can a contract be rejected for being too low?

This is from a discussion that's started on the Red Wings site regarding Teemu Selanne. Say for example he wants to come back with Anaheim and out of the kindness of his heart, agrees to sign for league minimum.

I thought the NHLPA would get its knickers in a twist about a player signing for what is clearly well below his market value. Can they officially or unofficially nix this deal?

I seem to remember them getting up in arms about a couple players contracts in years past, but I'm old and details are fuzzy. So I thought I'd throw it out to the knowledgeable people here.

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09-18-2008, 03:30 PM
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AnaheimDucks90
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I think it is the decision from the player who underwrite the contract. Selanne f.E. is old enough to decide what a contract he sign. In the past some contracts were questionable imo.

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09-18-2008, 03:35 PM
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Carlos Ranger
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The PA might get the players agent to convince the player he shouldn't have to take a huge discount, but in the end no, there is no rule prohibiting any legally structured contracts.

but the reality is no star player will be signing for league minimum to help any team no matter how loyal you might think he is, especially in this economy. hockey is still a job.

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09-18-2008, 03:35 PM
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Harold Snepsts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnaheimDucks90 View Post
I think it is the decision from the player who underwrite the contract. Selanne f.E. is old enough to decide what a contract he sign. In the past some contracts were questionable imo.
That's the thing, I seem to remember the NHLPA getting up in arms about a few players contracts in the past because they were signing for such a discount, but I can't remember who those players or what the details were.

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09-18-2008, 03:36 PM
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Zen Arcade
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I think the PA complained about Lemieux's salary being too low when he came back in 01.

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09-18-2008, 03:41 PM
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Aztec59
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I think I read somewhere that the NHL has no rule. However the NHLPA does not like it and hands out significant fines.

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09-18-2008, 03:44 PM
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Drake1588
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Yes. If the contract is below the individual player minimum or above the individual player maximum, it can be rejected for being outside the boundaries set according to the CBA. Beyond that, no. There will be grumbling, but not actual rejection. Gauging a player's nebulous "market worth" is impossible to quantify.

There was an isolated incident not long ago where Mario Lemieux tried to pay himself less than many considered him worth, but that was a specific conflict of interest question, since he was both owner and player. That was an exception. For a simple player, willing to take pay cuts to play on a certain team, there is no reason why not. Detroit's been assembling a stacked roster for years on this very basis, with numerous players willing to take $1M to $2M less than their market value annually to play on an annual contender.

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09-18-2008, 03:45 PM
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Arastiroth
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The previous CBA had a few situations where the NHLPA was upset about how much a player was earning. For example, the NHLPA was upset about Mario Lemieux signing for too little when he came out of retirement to play for the Penguins. They wanted him to sign for his market value (which was far more than the million or so he signed for) since it would push the average salary up, which was an important number in the previous CBA. Also, the NHLPA wanted players to get as much money as possible because it would, as a whole, continue to push other players salaries up too.

The old CBA's system was like a rising bar of comparables for player salaries, where if one person became overpaid other people would use him as a comparison for themselves and then they'd all get paid as much as he did, and this would repeat over and over (to oversimplify it).

With the new CBA, there is basically one big pie that is sent to the players each year, so someone signing for less than his market value only saves more of the pie for the other players to have. Because of this, there is a lot less pressure from the PA on the players to sign for as much as they can. It's possible though that there is still some pressure on the absolute best players to try and get as much as they can, so the artificial upper limit (the most a player IS making) can be pushed towards the cap limit (the most a player CAN make).

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09-18-2008, 03:48 PM
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Epatt001
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the p.a. may try to encourage players not to give hometown discounts, etc, but i dont think that they can legally dictate how much or a little a player deems to be an acceptable contract.

i can see players agents pushing hard for their clients not to take too much a discount. plain and simple the agents make less money, if this happens.

realistically i can see selanne sigining for a small contract that is filled with bonuses.that is if burkie can find a suitor for schneider.

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09-18-2008, 03:52 PM
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GoKings57
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Didn't Ray Bourqe catch a lot of flack over the contracts he signed when he was in Boston? I remember reading that somewhere.

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09-18-2008, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Snepsts View Post
That's the thing, I seem to remember the NHLPA getting up in arms about a few players contracts in the past because they were signing for such a discount, but I can't remember who those players or what the details were.
This was only an issue with Mario Lemieux - who was both a player and an owner - effectively paying himself. The NHLPA filed a grievence because an artificially low salary would reduce the Average League Salary, potentially making fewer players eligible for Group V UFA status. As a result Lemiuex agreed to have an indpendent arbiter set his salary.

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09-18-2008, 07:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztec59 View Post
I think I read somewhere that the NHL has no rule. However the NHLPA does not like it and hands out significant fines.
"We are going to fine you, because you don't make enough money."

LOL.

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09-18-2008, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GoKings57 View Post
Didn't Ray Bourqe catch a lot of flack over the contracts he signed when he was in Boston? I remember reading that somewhere.
Considering Jeremy Jacobs perenially low-balled Bourque and then unofficially decreed that no one would make more than Bourque, I don't know what flack he was supposed to catch.

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09-18-2008, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Irish Blues View Post
Considering Jeremy Jacobs perenially low-balled Bourque and then unofficially decreed that no one would make more than Bourque, I don't know what flack he was supposed to catch.
I just remember reading somewhere that the NHLPA was perpetually miffed at Bourque for accepting those contract offers, when he could've/should've gotten so much more on the open market.

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09-18-2008, 08:24 PM
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Seem to recall the PA not being overly enthused at some of the contracts that Brodeur has signed.

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09-18-2008, 09:10 PM
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How much did Kariya/Selanne sign for with Colorado? Didn't Kariya opt for like a one-year $1M contract or something after being paid $10M the year before?

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09-18-2008, 09:10 PM
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Theridion
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IIRC, Kariya signed a 1 mil dollar deal with colorado when he left the Ducks (I think he we due 8 mil or so probably, he was coming off a 10 mil contract). He did it to win a cup with selanne/sakic/forsberg...

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09-18-2008, 09:14 PM
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kmad
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Originally Posted by shepherd17 View Post
How much did Kariya/Selanne sign for with Colorado? Didn't Kariya opt for like a one-year $1M contract or something after being paid $10M the year before?
Kariya and Selanne signed for a one year, 7 million dollar package... Kariya at 1.2 mil, Selanne at 5.8. Everyone was outraged, and they pencilled the Avalanche in for the Cup.

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09-18-2008, 09:16 PM
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kdb209
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Originally Posted by Theridion View Post
IIRC, Kariya signed a 1 mil dollar deal with colorado when he left the Ducks (I think he we due 8 mil or so probably, he was coming off a 10 mil contract). He did it to win a cup with selanne/sakic/forsberg...
He also did it, so that he would still qualify as a UFA the next season.

He did not yet qualify for Group III UFA status (31 yo under the old CBA). He became a UFA because the Ducks chose not to qualify him. By signing for less than the league average and signing just a 1 yr contract, he qualified for Group V UFA status the next offseason (10+ years pro experience and earning less than teh Average League Salary), and could get his big payday then. Had he signed for a larger salary, he would actually have been an RFA after that year.

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09-18-2008, 11:37 PM
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Alpha190
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
He also did it, so that he would still qualify as a UFA the next season.

He did not yet qualify for Group III UFA status (31 yo under the old CBA). He became a UFA because the Ducks chose not to qualify him. By signing for less than the league average and signing just a 1 yr contract, he qualified for Group V UFA status the next offseason (10+ years pro experience and earning less than teh Average League Salary), and could get his big payday then. Had he signed for a larger salary, he would actually have been an RFA after that year.
That is correct, I remember the league avg salary was at 1.8M and Kariya signed at 1.2M

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09-19-2008, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
He also did it, so that he would still qualify as a UFA the next season.

He did not yet qualify for Group III UFA status (31 yo under the old CBA). He became a UFA because the Ducks chose not to qualify him. By signing for less than the league average and signing just a 1 yr contract, he qualified for Group V UFA status the next offseason (10+ years pro experience and earning less than teh Average League Salary), and could get his big payday then. Had he signed for a larger salary, he would actually have been an RFA after that year.
I also remember when that happened...i was like "dang, that kid's the smartest man in hockey"

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Old
09-19-2008, 05:04 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aztec59 View Post
I think I read somewhere that the NHL has no rule. However the NHLPA does not like it and hands out significant fines.
What authority does the NHLPA have to fine its members for signing contracts they wish to sign?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I think the PA complained about Lemieux's salary being too low when he came back in 01.
They did. I know they also weren't happy with the low contract Brodeur negotiated for himself (nor were the agents happy since he cut them out of the process).

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Old
09-19-2008, 10:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
I think the PA complained about Lemieux's salary being too low when he came back in 01.

on the books it ended up being the league average

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