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Brooks on Zherdev 09/19/08

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Old
09-20-2008, 07:16 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by leesmith View Post
I've seen that kind of laziness from Zherdev during much of his tenure here in Columbus. So it's not hard to believe what Brooks wrote.

Last season was the first season where Z actually applied himself, and even then, it only lasted for half the season. He's your problem now - until he leaves again for Russia next season.

Dan Fritsche, OTOH, was a good acquisition for the Blueshirts.
Wow, someone's bitter.

What's going to be truly comical is when Tyutin is the guy who actually bolts to Russia, while Zherdev remains in NY (which he says he already loves, especially Manhattan).

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09-20-2008, 07:29 AM
  #102
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From today's (Saturday) Post:

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Markus Naslund-Scott Gomez-Nikolai Zherdev line had another very quiet scrimmage, for whatever that's worth

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Old
09-20-2008, 07:42 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
Wow, someone's bitter.

What's going to be truly comical is when Tyutin is the guy who actually bolts to Russia, while Zherdev remains in NY (which he says he already loves, especially Manhattan).

It's not bitterness, dude, just disappointment.

For a guy that showed flashes of greatness from the day he arrived here, he NEVER played with ANY heart.

We sat through a big ordeal to get him snuck out of Russia in the middle of the night, which cost the club a bunch of coin, only to have him return there in the off season and friggin HOLD OUT there 2 years later.

Then he refused to learn any English, making us sign a bad contract to get Feds, in hopes that a mentor could help turn him around......it didn't work, and we WAY overpaid for Federov in the process.

On the ice....he's too cute ! Don't get me wrong, he's got unbelievable hands and puck handling skills, but you'll see, he consistently turns the puck over in the neutral zone and gives up odd man rushes.......it's just frustrating.

I'm not hating on the guy , really ! I've still got a ton of his gear, Jerseys, t-shirts, etc.. But I'm now convinced he will go down as another talent that goes unrealized.

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09-20-2008, 08:33 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Forechecker View Post
My feeling is that Zherdev is going to end up with either Drury or Dubinsky, with Callahan playing next to Gomez and Naslund, and Fritsche being the other RW.

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09-20-2008, 09:25 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
Wow, someone's bitter.

What's going to be truly comical is when Tyutin is the guy who actually bolts to Russia, while Zherdev remains in NY (which he says he already loves, especially Manhattan).
I don't think most Jackets' fans are bitter. We've just completely removed the rose colored glasses and stopped drinking the Kool Aid.

Some might want Zherdev to fail just so they can say "I told you so." But I think most would like Zherdev to get his head out of his rear, apply himself, and have a successful career.

Zherdev is just a frustrating player for a fan (much like how Jagr probably was). All the talent in the world, you just wish it would be there more often.

Fritsche on the other hand is an extremely hard worker with good wheels and decent with other abilities. If you could somehow smush the two together (taking the good qualities of both) you would have one hell of a hockey player.

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09-20-2008, 09:32 AM
  #106
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I'm definitely in the minority here, at least when it comes to Rangers fans, but I'm really not sold on Zherdev yet. And considering that I haven't been to these practices, and haven't seen him at training, I can only go by what people report. So far, it hasn't been a great start. Am I saying the guy is going to have the same issues he had in Colombus? No. But he has to earn my respect as a fan, especially with all the baggage he brings.

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09-20-2008, 09:36 AM
  #107
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i just read the prospects park article on zherdev and i read some quotes from renney and i have to say im in total agreement with him.....he says something along the lines of, "the creative mind is hard to defend"....and it is true....the one thing you dont want to do is take that away from a naturally gifted young player like zherdev and turn him into another run-of-the-mill player.......look at montreal....they nurture creativity while still playing a system....thats what renney is trying to do....let the kid develop correctly and let him get accustomed to his teammates and the new system but theone thing we cant have is to have people saying he is lazy and shouldnt be trying to be creative because if he isnt then who will be?.....there is a reason he was drafted so high....he has more natural talent than anyone on this team.....and thats scary

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09-20-2008, 09:54 AM
  #108
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This is a bit long, but just wanted to get it all out...

Zherdev came off arguably his best season in the NHL last season, yet the jackets traded him. They are a team who was dead last in scoring last year, but felt it better for them as a team to let his 60+ points walk. Why do they trade the only other guy in double digits in goal-scoring?

Some people will try to say that Zherdev wasn't a 'Hitchcock-type' player, but Hitchcock was instrumental in the acquisition of Huselius (some might put Huselius and Zherdev in the skilled but a bit light category). Hitchcock likes skill, loves it, but the player with skill also has to work. The theory about Hitchcock only liking grinders is simply not true.

Zherdev's work ethic improved dramatically last year compared to what it had been. Last summer Zherdev came to North America (Ottawa) in August to train for the first time ever and Howson paid him a visit while he was up there which Zherdev indicated meant a lot to him. The relationship between Howson, Hitchcock and Zherdev was fine. There was no clash, yes, early last season Hitchcock threw Zherdev off the ice at practice for attempting that exact toe drag that Brooks was put off by and screwing up all the drills--but that was more about a coach establishing a standard than a clash. The jackets were a mess when Hitchcock first arrived and much needed to change. Maclean let Zherdev do whatever he wanted for fear of not wanting to upset the super star. That changed when Hitchcock arrived.

Hitchcock gave Zherdev plenty of credit for his work in the defensive zone, stating that he is better in his own end than a lot of highly skilled players. Last season Hitchcock gave Zherdev more trust and responsibility than he had ever had. He played him at key times in the game, in the dying minutes of the game down or up a goal, and he even gave him a go at the penalty kill. There were no restrictions on this guy to play any differently than anyone else on the team was expected to play. The toe-dragging just inside the offensive blueline all but went away and he started passing and really using his teammates more often. He was coming out of his shell and interacting more with his teammates, yet they traded him.

Why? Because he didn't fit with the team. For all the good and as much as he showed signs of being a team player, he STILL didn't fit within the construct of what the jackets were trying to build. The coaching staff and management did a lot to help him along, yet they still traded him. Will he fit in with what Renney is trying to build?

For those of you who say: as long as he puts the puck in the net I don't care how out of shape or lazy he is in the pre-season, you are simply not looking at the concept of team or the big picture. Do you think Gomez and Drury, two guys who have won it all and know what it takes to do so, are going to be swooned by his puck skills? All they see is a guy who is getting all this hype but came to camp out of shape, and now two practices into camp, is dogging it. THIS is why him being substandard at camp is significant. It is not only a time to get ready for the season, but a time to prove to your teammates that you are prepared and willing to do whatever it takes.

Over time players take notice of the fact that the skilled superstar continues to get ice time when he has done less and seems to care less. Over time the rest of the players begin to lose faith and trust in the coaching staff as a result. Now it is possible that because the blue jackets didn't have any depth and they were forced to play him, that they couldn't discipline him the right way and the Rangers will have more of a hammer, but how is it going to look when their big off-season acquisition is a healthy-scratch?

The jackets fans who have come over have said that he 'is always like this in pre-season' etc, well, that isn't entirely true. Hitchcock never allowed it. The problem with Zherdev, and it will be a problem for his teammates, is that HE decides when it is important to play. He doesn't just play hard because he wants to be a good teammate. He basically gave up after the trade deadline last year because he felt that the season was over. This attitude is counter to what the jackets were/are building so they moved him.

In Columbus he was fairly anonymous and was mostly protected. Two days into camp in one of the biggest hockey centers in N. America a writer has already highlighted his shortcomings for all the world to see. How will this affect him over time. Say what you want about Brooks, but he didn't just pull this out of nowhere.

I am sure he DOES love the bright lights of NYC because he was very much a guy who enjoys the night lift, however, in Columbus he couldn't hide as well as he will be able to in NYC. Also, there is a HUGE russian community in NYC which Zherdev will likely submerge himself him. Great for him personally, but professionally will that be good for him?

It will be very interesting to see which direction Zherdev decides to take his career. He is very skilled and will definitely score his share of highlight reel goals, but whether or not he is truly helping his team and whether or not he fits, is the real question.

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09-20-2008, 10:13 AM
  #109
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Zherdev came off arguably his best season in the NHL last season, yet the jackets traded him. They are a team who was dead last in scoring last year, but felt it better for them as a team to let his 60+ points walk. Why do they trade the only other guy in double digits in goal-scoring?
Because their defense was just as pathetic as their offense, and the UFA defensemen they targeted scoffed at the Blue Jackets offers and signed with other teams (for less many in some cases... it's widely been reported Columbus had a bigger $$$ offer for Redden).

Huselius however, was willing to sign in Columbus. So they replaced Z with Huselius and traded Z for what was then their biggest team need, defense (Toots).

This isn't to say they didn't fear Z would leave after this season... I just think the analysis in suggesting they took from their anemic offense just to get rid of Z. No, they took from their anemic offense because they were able to bring in an UFA forward, and unable to bring in any replacement on the backend.

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09-20-2008, 10:33 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by azrok22 View Post
Because their defense was just as pathetic as their offense, and the UFA defensemen they targeted scoffed at the Blue Jackets offers and signed with other teams (for less many in some cases... it's widely been reported Columbus had a bigger $$$ offer for Redden).
Their d was top 10 in the league in all numbers. Where they lacked was back end scoring and puck moving. Redden signed in NY because of his relationship with Perry Pern. The money was right in line with what the NYR had offered.

Quote:
Huselius however, was willing to sign in Columbus. So they replaced Z with Huselius and traded Z for what was then their biggest team need, defense (Toots).
They moved Z before they had any idea whether they would be able to replace him with Huselius or any other scoring winger. It was a risk, and it ended up paying off, but there were no guarantees in them replacing Zherdev's scoring.

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This isn't to say they didn't fear Z would leave after this season... I just think the analysis in suggesting they took from their anemic offense just to get rid of Z. No, they took from their anemic offense because they were able to bring in an UFA forward, and unable to bring in any replacement on the backend.
The fact that they moved Zherdev for blueliners just happed to be the case. Sure, they wanted to upgrade their d as well, but the fact that Zherdev was the movable commodity after being 2nd on the team in goal scoring after ALL he, and they, did to bring him along with the team is very telling.

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09-20-2008, 10:36 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
I think that's hardly what I'm doing. My point is whenever people hear the name "Brooks", like "Eklund", the conversation moves from the content to the source.

If people loathe Brooks so much, don't read him. If people know than Eklund is never right with his rumors, why talk about them?
The conversation moves from the content to the source because of the objectivity of the material. Brooks is not writing from facts, he is writing from the same half assed opinions he always has. Until Brooks starts writing based on facts, Shots on goal, game winning goals, points, etc... him and his articles will always be subject to criticism.

Personally I think you have to take Brooks with a grain of salt. Some times he has good articles, some times he does not. No body is perfect. My question is this, we all know Brooks and how he writes... him writing stuff like this is nothing new, so why is every body whining about it?

When its Eklund writing a rumor or piece all it ever is " Oh its just Eklund it cant be true"

But when its Brooks writing and we know he is full of **** in a particular article, why not just do the same thing, take it for what it is and leave it alone?

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09-20-2008, 10:38 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Lodewijk View Post
It's not bitterness, dude, just disappointment.

For a guy that showed flashes of greatness from the day he arrived here, he NEVER played with ANY heart.

We sat through a big ordeal to get him snuck out of Russia in the middle of the night, which cost the club a bunch of coin, only to have him return there in the off season and friggin HOLD OUT there 2 years later.

Then he refused to learn any English, making us sign a bad contract to get Feds, in hopes that a mentor could help turn him around......it didn't work, and we WAY overpaid for Federov in the process.

On the ice....he's too cute ! Don't get me wrong, he's got unbelievable hands and puck handling skills, but you'll see, he consistently turns the puck over in the neutral zone and gives up odd man rushes.......it's just frustrating.

I'm not hating on the guy , really ! I've still got a ton of his gear, Jerseys, t-shirts, etc.. But I'm now convinced he will go down as another talent that goes unrealized.
I see Alexei Koavlev all over again...

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09-20-2008, 10:43 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Lodewijk View Post
We sat through a big ordeal to get him snuck out of Russia in the middle of the night, which cost the club a bunch of coin, only to have him return there in the off season and friggin HOLD OUT there 2 years later.
?? Most foreign players go home during the offseason, unless they've been in the US so long that it's now their home. I don't see why you hold that against him. And from all the reading material on it, it sounds like him holding out had a lot to do with DM being a ****** general manager and lowballing him.

But yeah, I can't find myself getting too excited about him yet because who knows how well he works out. He could put up 60 points and not help the team a lot (in other words, Yashin syndrome), or he could do well and put up 70+ and be an important part of the team. I'm not sure yet what we'll get.

But I do get annoyed at the pointless **** like Brooks' article. It's training camp and no one except guys trying to make the team go all out. And is it really all Zherdev's fault that the line he's on isn't clicking? How many of us have sat around and said "you know, that line doesn't seem to make a lot of sense based on their playing styles", and yet we act surprised when it doesn't immediately click?

I'm perfectly willing to admit he could fail here, but I'm not ready to label him a failure in training camp.

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09-20-2008, 11:17 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Levitate View Post
And from all the reading material on it, it sounds like him holding out had a lot to do with DM being a ****** general manager and lowballing him.

Some fans would make that argument, but others like me, saw it as Doug holding his ground in not wanting to pay big money based on potential. That's what rookie contracts are for.

The way I saw it, and Nikki was my favorite player, was that he wanted big boy money....... but up to that point, he had not fulfilled ANY of the things asked of him over the early part of his career. I mean it was like he wasn't even trying.

The team had to BEG him to learn a little English so he could communicate a little better with his coaches and teammates.....and he blew it off.

Like I said, Z was my favorite Jacket. But I was completely ready for the club to stand their ground and play without him that year......he was acting like a spoiled prima-donna.



Disclaimer ----- I am in NO WAY a DM fan.......but I do think he got this one right.

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09-20-2008, 11:55 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Lodewijk View Post
Some fans would make that argument, but others like me, saw it as Doug holding his ground in not wanting to pay big money based on potential. That's what rookie contracts are for.

The way I saw it, and Nikki was my favorite player, was that he wanted big boy money....... but up to that point, he had not fulfilled ANY of the things asked of him over the early part of his career. I mean it was like he wasn't even trying.

The team had to BEG him to learn a little English so he could communicate a little better with his coaches and teammates.....and he blew it off.

Like I said, Z was my favorite Jacket. But I was completely ready for the club to stand their ground and play without him that year......he was acting like a spoiled prima-donna.



Disclaimer ----- I am in NO WAY a DM fan.......but I do think he got this one right.
I don't know about in Columbus, but there are guys here in New York that won't let him get away with that type of attitude, of that is indeed what he begins to exhibit.

Drury will take him to task, as will Gomez, as would Dubinsky I'm sure, just as would several others.

To me, Zherdev is a prime example of how not to develop a superstar.

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09-20-2008, 12:05 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
I don't know about in Columbus, but there are guys here in New York that won't let him get away with that type of attitude, of that is indeed what he begins to exhibit.
Adam Foote, Micheal Peca, Freddy Modin, Fedorov--Columbus had their guys as well.

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To me, Zherdev is a prime example of how not to develop a superstar.
Yet Nash seems to be coming along fine. Zherdev is where Zherdev is because of Zherdev.

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09-20-2008, 12:46 PM
  #117
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Adam Foote, Micheal Peca, Freddy Modin, Fedorov--Columbus had their guys as well.
And apparently they didn't do their jobs. If they let him get away with what they did without taking him to task, they're at fault for letting if affect the team.


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Yet Nash seems to be coming along fine. Zherdev is where Zherdev is because of Zherdev.
Nash hasn't yet broken 70 points in his career, something tells me that isn't "coming along fine".

You're honestly going to sit there and try to tell me that Columbus did a good job in developing Zherdev? They should've let him develop over in Russia for a few seasons, then bring him over and ease him into an NHL role, perhaps even having him start in the AHL. Is that what they did? No, they had him in the midst of a battle between continents, like a Stretch Armstrong doll being pulled in both directions. It's a wonder he was even able to do as well as he did.

And what about the on-ice development itself? Before this past year, was Zherdev nurtured like a prospect should be? Were his strengths emphasized or was he like a square peg being pounded into a round hole? Was he given ample opportunity to perform (and fail, which is how you learn) without being reprimanded and demoted by the then general manager?

I think you see where I'm going with this..

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09-20-2008, 12:57 PM
  #118
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You're right, it's all Columbus' fault and Zherdev will be a 200 point superstar in New York. Developing a player is all on the management and the player is just along for the ride.

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Old
09-20-2008, 12:58 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post

To me, Zherdev is a prime example of how not to develop a superstar.
Zherdev is not a superstar. Hes not even really a star at this point.

Its all about potential with him, potential he has yet to meet. And its not because of the organization or his environment, or whatever excuses you want to come up with. Its because of him.

Lets hope, as Ranger fans, he realizes all that potential real soon.

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09-20-2008, 01:09 PM
  #120
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You're right, it's all Columbus' fault and Zherdev will be a 200 point superstar in New York. Developing a player is all on the management and the player is just along for the ride.
Way to not address any of my actual points and just use a broad, sweeping generalization to respond to my post.

Where did I ever say it was all Columbus' fault? And where did I ever say Zherdev will succeed in New York?

Quite the contrary, I believe Zherdev is as responsible for his lack of development is the Jackets management, but make no mistake, the Jackets did not attempt to develop him properly, which undoubtedly helped shape the player we see today. See my above post for individual concerns.

As for whether he succeeds or not, it's up to him, but it also depends on Tom Renney. If Renney can continue what Hitchcock began last year, Zherdev could very well realize his potential. Yet he could just as easily (and probably moreso) fail and completely fade into oblivion.


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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Zherdev is not a superstar.

Hes not even really a star at this point.

Its all about potential with him, potential he has yet to meet. And its not because of the organization or his environment, or whatever excuses you want to come up with. Its because of him.

Lets hope, as Ranger fans, he realizes all that potential real soon.
That's exactly my point. I don't see that Zherdev was brought along and "nurtured" properly, and had he been, I believe the kid would be a superstar and would be the face of the Jackets. For the Rangers, it's almost a lose-lose, because without that lack of development (meaning had he developed as was expected of him), the Jackets would never have let him go.

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09-20-2008, 01:19 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Lodewijk View Post
It's not bitterness, dude, just disappointment.

For a guy that showed flashes of greatness from the day he arrived here, he NEVER played with ANY heart.

We sat through a big ordeal to get him snuck out of Russia in the middle of the night, which cost the club a bunch of coin, only to have him return there in the off season and friggin HOLD OUT there 2 years later.

Then he refused to learn any English, making us sign a bad contract to get Feds, in hopes that a mentor could help turn him around......it didn't work, and we WAY overpaid for Federov in the process.

On the ice....he's too cute ! Don't get me wrong, he's got unbelievable hands and puck handling skills, but you'll see, he consistently turns the puck over in the neutral zone and gives up odd man rushes.......it's just frustrating.

I'm not hating on the guy , really ! I've still got a ton of his gear, Jerseys, t-shirts, etc.. But I'm now convinced he will go down as another talent that goes unrealized.
Wow that really sounds like Kovalev when he broke into the NHL with the Rangers except for the part of learning English, Kovy was always a good kid.

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09-20-2008, 01:28 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by nyrJeff View Post
And apparently they didn't do their jobs. If they let him get away with what they did without taking him to task, they're at fault for letting if affect the team.
Right. Zherdev came to Rangers camp out of shape and is dogging it the first two days, yet he is 'getting away with it'. How is this happening? Why hasn't anyone tuned him in yet? I think you know where I am going with this.

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Nash hasn't yet broken 70 points in his career, something tells me that isn't "coming along fine".
Nash has never had a center to play with. If you had watched him over the last year and a half you would know what I am refering to. Anytime he goes to any international competition, he dominates. He's fine.

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You're honestly going to sit there and try to tell me that Columbus did a good job in developing Zherdev?
I don't really think Columbus did a great job of anything until recently. I don't necessarily think they should have done the things you have suggested differently, but to absolve Zherdev the responsibility of where he is in his career is naive. Maclean probably really did muck up his dealings with Zherdev in the beginning, but since Hitchcock and Howson arrived things were righted with Zherdev. They cleared the slate and it is time for both sides to stop blaming the past.

My original point was that this past year was likely his best year as a team player and NHL player and the jackets still moved him.


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09-20-2008, 02:10 PM
  #123
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willen- Great post and you make allot of very good pts and your reasoning is excellent!

However, there is one thing id like to point out, you mentioned Drury and Gomez -- and that might be a big diffrence between the two teams. CBJ have not been a established team with a solid platform during Z time there, and CBJ have not had leadership like Drury and Gomez. I am big Vyborny fan myself -- but I don't think he is that type of leader, and Federov and Nash both have big attitude problems. Feds is what he is, and Nash have also had problems with showing up in shape.

Like, nothing negative about CJB, but its a young organization. I am sure that it would have been easier for Z to take the step to the NHL if it had been for a established organization like Detroit for example.

Anyway, it certainly remains to be seen if Z have what it takes to be a core player on a contender.

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09-20-2008, 02:25 PM
  #124
Edge
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Without question Zherdev is a risk.

But the price was worth the gamble IMO.

Maybe Zherdev is never a star, but for Brooks to mention him in the same sentence as Brendl is just plain retarded.

I don't think Brendl ever put up 25-30 goals in the AHL, let alone the NHL like Zherdev has done twice.

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09-20-2008, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge View Post
Without question Zherdev is a risk.

But the price was worth the gamble IMO.

Maybe Zherdev is never a star, but for Brooks to mention him in the same sentence as Brendl is just plain retarded.

I don't think Brendl ever put up 25-30 goals in the AHL, let alone the NHL like Zherdev has done twice.
I agree, definitely worth the risk

Although some people may disagree, I thought Tyutin could have played with a little more heart at times too. People just didn't criticize him as much because he was very likable... and he would lay a huge hit ever so often.

Maybe Hitchcock can transform him into a 30-40 point, first pairing defenseman. I just don't see it though

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