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So... no shutdown line?

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Old
09-25-2008, 11:29 AM
  #51
Poochie_D
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If we have the puck, they can't score. 3 offensive lines.

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09-25-2008, 11:57 AM
  #52
Habitants
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i think that this line is a fantastic shut down line!

Higgins Plekanec S.K.

and i see no problem with

Tanguay koivu Lats
Akost lang Kovalev

at this point, other teams will have trouble matchin their lines with the habs.

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Old
09-25-2008, 12:01 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Poochie_D View Post
If we have the puck, they can't score. 3 offensive lines.
You're thinking too small. Quatre ligne d'attaque!

Kostitsyn-Plekanec-Kovalev
Tanguay-Lang-D'Agostini
Latendresse-Koivu-Kostitsyn
Higgins-Chipchura-Maxwell

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09-25-2008, 12:03 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
i think that this line is a fantastic shut down line!

Higgins Plekanec S.K.

and i see no problem with

Tanguay koivu Lats
Akost lang Kovalev

at this point, other teams will have trouble matchin their lines with the habs.
The potential worry I have is with burning these guys out over the long haul by having them kill penalties and defend tight leads, in addition to their regular offensive line duties.

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09-25-2008, 04:42 PM
  #55
Sam I Am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
i think that this line is a fantastic shut down line!

Higgins Plekanec S.K.

and i see no problem with

Tanguay koivu Lats
Akost lang Kovalev

at this point, other teams will have trouble matchin their lines with the habs.
These lines make alot of sense to me.

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Old
09-25-2008, 05:14 PM
  #56
zurg999
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I'm with the camp that's saying we need a dedicated, reliable shutdown line. Not so much for the regular season but for the playoffs, which amounts to the same thing anyway. Line matchups mean everything and any top line Carbo can put together right now would not go toe to toe with the likes of Heatley/Spezza or Datsyuk/Zetty. All that does is take away our best potential matchup.

I'm biased, but I'd really like to see a Chips/Higgy/Lats line working together for the season.

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09-26-2008, 11:01 AM
  #57
Lord Horse
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Originally Posted by zurg999 View Post
I'm with the camp that's saying we need a dedicated, reliable shutdown line. Not so much for the regular season but for the playoffs, which amounts to the same thing anyway. [B]Line matchups mean everything and any top line Carbo can put together right now would not go toe to toe with the likes of Heatley/Spezza or Datsyuk/Zetty. All that does is take away our best potential matchup.

I'm biased, but I'd really like to see a Chips/Higgy/Lats line working together for the season.
Thank you - this is exactly the point and I'm surprised at the naive view from "the other side" that thinks we can just ignore this fact and everything will be A-OK. Other top lines with real elite stars will have their way with our line 1, and can then sick THEIR checkers on our 2nd line. Can Koivu & Col. play through it? Sometimes - but if that's not consistent, then we're gonna have to hope line 3 can score lots of goals to get us out of trouble on some nights.

If Higgins-Kouiv-Tanguay is such a good defensive trio, are people going to suggest matching *them* up against Heatley/Spezza or Datsyuk/Zetterburg to shut them down? It will be a pasting

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Old
09-26-2008, 11:58 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post

Seriously, are you guys kidding me? smell the coffe and wake up, It's a big concern for us, We've always had a line that was specifically used to hold the other team's top line for the last couple of years and they've done a pretty good job too, we need atleast 2 defensive specialist on the team since Laraque is a lock on the 4th line, it's the big reason imo that Kyle Chipchura HAS to make the team this year, Bégin and Kosto skate faster but don't play the defensive game as well as Chipper can

edit: you can add that one to the list:

I am glad you are not the GM, making offers to the likes of Sundstrom, Bonk, Smolinsky just for the purpose of having a shutdown line...

Don't you think carbo and especially Gainey, as defensive specialist, did not think about this when they got Lang?

If they though there was a need, they would have acquired a defensive specialist.

If the GM, arguably one of the best defensive specialist of all time, don't think it is a big concern, I don't see why I should.

btw your insults are jus plain free and don't make your point more valid.

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Old
09-26-2008, 12:10 PM
  #59
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Pleks, Koivu and Lang are all good two way centres and have killed penalties in the NHL. As well Higgins, Kovalev, Tanguay have also been good PKers..... Sergei and Andrei are not bad in their own zone, and Lats is getting better with experience. These three lines will all be pretty good in their own end.

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Old
09-26-2008, 01:10 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Pleks, Koivu and Lang are all good two way centres and have killed penalties in the NHL. As well Higgins, Kovalev, Tanguay have also been good PKers..... Sergei and Andrei are not bad in their own zone, and Lats is getting better with experience. These three lines will all be pretty good in their own end.
I'm not convinced by the argument that most of our forwards are 'pretty good' in their own zone and that it would cut it for 60 minutes of playoff hockey. Out of the last 6 post-lockout Cup finalists, 5 of those teams had at least 1 reliable defensive forward/specialist. Some teams(Anaheim) relied heavily upon one, whereas others(Detroit) played so well as a team they were forgotten about. Looking at our roster, we have some responsible energy players, as well as some 2-way players but not one I'd even remotely call a defensive specialist.

As for the 'puck possession' short answer, that's very true. For the first 55 minutes, at least. Then the refs put the whistle away in the last 5 mins. That's when the other team digs down and goes all out to hook, clutch and tenaciously strip that puck away. That's where you need that gritty defensive-minded player to play smart and safe hockey.

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Old
09-26-2008, 01:17 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
I'm not convinced by the argument that most of our forwards are 'pretty good' in their own zone and that it would cut it for 60 minutes of playoff hockey. Out of the last 6 post-lockout Cup finalists, 5 of those teams had at least 1 reliable defensive forward/specialist. Some teams(Anaheim) relied heavily upon one, whereas others(Detroit) played so well as a team they were forgotten about. Looking at our roster, we have some responsible energy players, as well as some 2-way players but not one I'd even remotely call a defensive specialist.

As for the 'puck possession' short answer, that's very true. For the first 55 minutes, at least. Then the refs put the whistle away in the last 5 mins. That's when the other team digs down and goes all out to hook, clutch and tenaciously strip that puck away. That's where you need that gritty defensive-minded player to play smart and safe hockey.
My guess is that Detroit is the model for the Habs this year. I mean...I think I remember the Zetterberg/Datsyuk line being praised for the PK time against the Crosby line....

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Old
09-26-2008, 02:01 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
I'm not convinced by the argument that most of our forwards are 'pretty good' in their own zone and that it would cut it for 60 minutes of playoff hockey. Out of the last 6 post-lockout Cup finalists, 5 of those teams had at least 1 reliable defensive forward/specialist. Some teams(Anaheim) relied heavily upon one, whereas others(Detroit) played so well as a team they were forgotten about. Looking at our roster, we have some responsible energy players, as well as some 2-way players but not one I'd even remotely call a defensive specialist.

As for the 'puck possession' short answer, that's very true. For the first 55 minutes, at least. Then the refs put the whistle away in the last 5 mins. That's when the other team digs down and goes all out to hook, clutch and tenaciously strip that puck away. That's where you need that gritty defensive-minded player to play smart and safe hockey.
Ding Ding! I'm bookmarking this post for when we're in the first round and we give up a goal in the last 3 minutes. With our best "defensive" players on the ice.

The "Gainey & Carbo were defensive specialists, they know what they're doing" argument is wishful thinking - 100% I am convinced that they too would agree with the post quoted above and will try their best to get not a better #4 D but a checking specialist *like themselves* - which we have not had on the team forever.

We're following the Detroit model, sure, but they have just *little* more on the elite talent side than we do, both on offense and defense.

When I get a few minutes I'd like to take a look who might be available to fill in this kind of role... anyone on waivers, I wonder?

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Old
09-26-2008, 02:38 PM
  #63
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A. Kost - Pleks - Kovy is your third line, since they can go toe to toe with any line in the league

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Old
09-26-2008, 02:45 PM
  #64
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The lines teams put out depend on their personnel. It was not so long ago that some poster might have opened a thread lamenting that the Habs didn't have a second offensive line. No, the Habs, don't have a line of Gainey, Jarvis, and some RW. Gainey as GM didn't feel it was necessary to recapture the past, judging from the way he acquired (or promoted) scorers and cleared out most of the defensive specialists. Defense is a team concept. It's unrealistic to expect to shut down Crosby and Malkin or Crosby and Hossa backed by an offensive Dman like Gonchar, or Heatley-Spezza-Alfredsson, or Datsyuk-Zetterberg-Holmstrom, for a complete game. A good line with no glaring weaknesses and a center capable of winning his share of faceoffs can help, along with putting out the best defensive Dmen and having a solid goaltender. If Price plays up to his potential and Carbonneau doesn't put out Brisebois against elite lines, I have no great concerns about the Habs being annihilated. If a game comes down to its final minutes of regular time, Carbonneau could elect to put together mixed lines and Dmen to stave off the first lines of opposing teams (something he didn't always do over the past 2 seasons). In OT, I'd use a different strategy: Go with the best offensive lines, because you already have a point and there's no law of physics that says Crosby or Spezza can't be scored against in a 5-minute interval.

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Old
09-26-2008, 03:00 PM
  #65
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As far as I know, Higgins, Koivu, Tanguay, Kovalev, Pleks are all decent defensively. I don't know about Lang but usuallly veterans are at least capable of playing defensively (read : usually). The Kost brothers I have my doubts about but they will learn, just not going to be great on defense this year I think. I'm not too worried about our defense.

Having 3 good/decent 2 way lines is better than having 2 scoring lines and 1 shutdown line... This way we can actually produce chances on defense; it's a pain for the other team to have to be careful even on their PP cause they know if they mess up, our players can still score.

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Old
09-26-2008, 03:18 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
Ding Ding! I'm bookmarking this post for when we're in the first round and we give up a goal in the last 3 minutes. With our best "defensive" players on the ice.

The "Gainey & Carbo were defensive specialists, they know what they're doing" argument is wishful thinking - 100% I am convinced that they too would agree with the post quoted above and will try their best to get not a better #4 D but a checking specialist *like themselves* - which we have not had on the team forever.

We're following the Detroit model, sure, but they have just *little* more on the elite talent side than we do, both on offense and defense.

When I get a few minutes I'd like to take a look who might be available to fill in this kind of role... anyone on waivers, I wonder?

Then Why Lang?

And to replace who? we are already overstack in the bottom lines

The only one I see is Chips, which I am not sure he is ready
There won't be any elite defensive specialist on waivers ala madden or Maltby...

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Old
09-26-2008, 03:29 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Sam I Am View Post
The best "shutdown line" is a strong defensive trio with a heavy counterpunch. Remember, the other team's top line is not necessarily very good at checking. If well constituted, a checking line with offensive abilities can be very hard for the other team to handle.

I propose:

Higgins Plekanec S.K.

All three can cover even the fastest of opponents...and make them pay for getting caught up ice.
I agree that based on our personal this would be our best "shutdown" line, but overall I still believe in the value of true specialists, though they are hard to come by. So given that we have no "defensive specialists" (Madden, Draper, Lethinen etc...) a fast line of defensively responsible players would be the best option. Really though, you can't go wrong with players who can play a solid two-way game.

Giving your line a shot would leave us with this:

A.Kost-Lang-Kovy
Higgins-Pleks-S.Kost
Tanguay-Koivu-Latendresse

Which is actually three really balanced lines. I'd be intrigued to see this lineup in action.


That said, I hate breaking up the A.Kost-Pleks-Kovy line, as I feel it can match up with nearly any line in the Eastern Conference, (save perhaps Pittsburgh and Ottawa's top lines) making the standard notion of "our no.3 vs their no.1" kind of unnecessary. Generally if we go strength vs. strength our top line can create chances while negating the other top line. If the opposition tries to shut us down (Madden's line vs. Pleks line for example) we have the depth in Koivu and Lang to create some chances at ES.

I don't know if Carbo is just going to roll 3 or 4 lines no matter what or try matchups, but overall I think our 2nd and 3rd lines can definitely create some opportunities at even strength if teams try to line match with us. The nonsense that was going on at times last year of trying the 4th line against top lines didn't work and likely won't be attempted again. (Lapierre just isn't cut to be a shutdown guy.)

That said, most Stanley Cup winners do have at least one or two of those defensive specialists though, (Draper, Pahlsson, Brind'Amour etc...) and there's no denying that they are extremely valuable players. This is a weakness in our lineup that could come back to hurt us in the playoffs when the games become tighter and defensive and physical play are ratcheted up.

But given our roster, I think that going with three lines that can create offence and limit the chances they give up is going to be the best way to win games.

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Old
09-26-2008, 08:36 PM
  #68
Lord Horse
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Originally Posted by CH4THECUP View Post
Then Why Lang?

And to replace who? we are already overstack in the bottom lines

The only one I see is Chips, which I am not sure he is ready
There won't be any elite defensive specialist on waivers ala madden or Maltby...
A right-handed shot, who isn't terrible at faceoffs. That's why Lang.

The only acceptable 4th liner on this team is BGL, the rest are only on the team because we lack a defensive specialist.

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Old
09-26-2008, 09:12 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Who on the top 3 lines is not defensively aware?

All three lines can play tit for tat with any other three lines and still have room for some scoring chances. That's huge.
Yeah, I don't mind that, but I'll always be a traditionalist. A team needs a shutdown line for late third period when it gets tight.

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Old
09-26-2008, 09:36 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
A right-handed shot, who isn't terrible at faceoffs. That's why Lang.

The only acceptable 4th liner on this team is BGL, the rest are only on the team because we lack a defensive specialist.
Gainey, Jarvis, and Carbonneau are too old.

Would you rather have had Gainey sign a defensive specialist instead of Tanguay or Lang?

The fourth line players can't easily be traded or bought out now. Wait until next year, when Dandenault, Bégin, and Kostopoulos will be gone.

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Old
09-27-2008, 09:57 AM
  #71
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I agree. that would be quite a line to watch. They would be like a pack of wolves. Begin, Laps and Kost can do ok as can sku. Maxwell will be a gem in that area. Im dreaming but maybe futur selke.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habitants View Post
i think that this line is a fantastic shut down line!

Higgins Plekanec S.K.

and i see no problem with

Tanguay koivu Lats
Akost lang Kovalev

at this point, other teams will have trouble matchin their lines with the habs.

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Old
10-07-2008, 12:57 AM
  #72
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Had to bring this back as Carbo himself explains why there is not shutdown line:

from RDS
http://www.rds.ca/canadien/chroniques/261144.html

Quote:
"Il n'y a plus de trio défensif, dit-il. C'était le style d'une époque où on retrouvait deux trios offensifs, un trio défensif et un autre capable d'apporter de l'énergie tout en étant fiable défensivement."

Carbo a bien sûr la chance de miser sur des joueurs de talent.

"Il y a plus de profondeur dans l'équipe, admet-il. Les joueurs peuvent tous s'exprimer en attaque tout en étant responsables défensivement."
translated:

Quote:
"There are no more shutdown lines," he said. "That was during an era when we saw 2 offensive lines, a shutdown line and one that brought energy while being solid defenders."

Carbo is lucky to have so many skilled players.

"There's better depth in the team," he admits. "Everyone can play offense while staying defensively responsible."
So there's a change in philosophy - you have it right from the coach.

What's interesting is at the end:

Quote:
"On doit s'assurer d'employer des défenseurs d'expérience dans certaines circonstances", fait-il valoir.
translation:

Quote:
"We have to make sure we us experienced defensemen in certain circumstances," he said.
So it'll all go, firewagon hockey, back to the future. How will our defense hold up when called on? What effect, if any, do you think this will have on our defensive makeup? Or have those changes already been put through (as it seems to me)?

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Old
10-07-2008, 01:02 AM
  #73
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So it'll all go, firewagon hockey, back to the future. How will our defense hold up when called on? What effect, if any, do you think this will have on our defensive makeup? Or have those changes already been put through (as it seems to me)?
I think for now its go with what we got...

ie
Markov - Komi
Hammer - Breezy
Gorges - O'B

to start the season and once Cube is healthy....

Markov - Komi
Hammer - O'B
Bouillion - Gorges


We definetely will be evaluating this unit to start the season and if necessary a top 4 D can be added before the trade deadline.

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Old
10-07-2008, 01:14 AM
  #74
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I miss Dackel, Juneau and Johnson so much.

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Old
10-07-2008, 03:59 AM
  #75
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Our 3 lines can generate more offense in total than those of the opposing teams. Who cares if their first line scores more goals than ours some nights, our 2nd and third line will score more than theirs.

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