HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Buffalo @ Minnesota | 8 PM EST

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-01-2008, 11:12 PM
  #76
Fan-of-#9
Registered User
 
Fan-of-#9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southern Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Yeah. Mythical definitions.
Ya, like the mythical definition that stated Campbell didn't have the prerequisites to be considered the Sabres #1 blueliner.

Fan-of-#9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:13 PM
  #77
Stone87
Registered User
 
Stone87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Rochester
Country: United States
Posts: 1,748
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Grier, McKee....Dumont was bigger than most of our forwards, although he didn't apply it enough.

Where was the toughness in 06-07? Oh wait, despite overwhelming skill, that's why we lost in the CF.
Don't forget Fitzpatrick and Jeff Jillson

Stone87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:15 PM
  #78
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9 View Post
Ya, like the mythical definition that stated Campbell didn't have the prerequisites to be considered the Sabres #1 blueliner.
Exactly.

Oh wait, you thought that point was supposed to HELP your cause??

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:15 PM
  #79
Fan-of-#9
Registered User
 
Fan-of-#9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southern Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar2866 View Post
That's not what he's saying and you know it. Gerbe can be the kind of tough you want all he wants, but it's not going to stop him from getting pushed around and off the puck, like a bunch of our other forwards, which is what he is claiming. Enough.
Actually, I'm following him just fine.

Fan-of-#9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:18 PM
  #80
Fan-of-#9
Registered User
 
Fan-of-#9's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Southern Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,775
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Exactly.

Oh wait, you thought that point was supposed to HELP your cause??
Riiight. Campbell's value fell somewhere in between Tallinder and Kalinin.


Fan-of-#9 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:21 PM
  #81
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fan-of-#9 View Post
Riiight. Campbell's value fell somewhere in between Tallinder and Kalinin.

Strawman.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:23 PM
  #82
Megaera
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,669
vCash: 500
I think the talk about Gerbe making the team is a bit premature. He would probably be better served getting lots of playing time in Portland. Let him force his way onto the team with his play.

Megaera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:24 PM
  #83
Ghills23
Registered User
 
Ghills23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Buffalo
Country: United States
Posts: 2,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JStone87 View Post
Don't forget Fitzpatrick and Jeff Jillson
and Mr. Doug Janik

Ghills23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:24 PM
  #84
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Grier, McKee....Dumont was bigger than most of our forwards, although he didn't apply it enough.

Where was the toughness in 06-07? Oh wait, despite overwhelming skill, that's why we lost in the CF.
Except for the fact that they added both Stafford and Paille, who are about the same size as Dumont. They also added Spacek, who can be physical at times.

The difference was a drop off in work ethic and tenacity. This was probably a result of being able to get by on raw skill for so long, as well as being able to coast for 2 and 1/2 periods and pull out wins at the end.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:27 PM
  #85
ohheyimmark
Registered User
 
ohheyimmark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Boston
Posts: 3,079
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Except for the fact that they added both Stafford and Paille, who are about the same size as Dumont. They also added Spacek, who can be physical at times.

The difference was a drop off in work ethic and tenacity. This was probably a result of being able to get by on raw skill for so long, as well as being able to coast for 2 and 1/2 periods and pull out wins at the end.
Spacek brings nowhere near the physicality, or toughness, in both senses, than McKee did. Paille and Stafford also did not bring what Grier brought. I'd even argue that JPD was better than those two in that department as well. The difference was a drop off in both ethic and actual size used.

ohheyimmark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:29 PM
  #86
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Except for the fact that they added both Stafford and Paille, who are about the same size as Dumont. They also added Spacek, who can be physical at times.

The difference was a drop off in work ethic and tenacity. This was probably a result of being able to get by on raw skill for so long, as well as being able to coast for 2 and 1/2 periods and pull out wins at the end.
If you're trying to tell me that Paille, Stafford, and Spacek could replace Grier and McKee, you're out to lunch. And again, Spacek is a Sabre I like a lot.

Toughness (in hockey terms) is about size and will. There's a reason Dumont was mentioned as a sidenote. Hell, I called Dumont "fairy" for the first 3-4 seasons he was with Buffalo.

Fact is, you need guys with size that are wired to run people into the glass. Rivet is a good start. Gerbe doesn't come close to meeting the specs.

And I guarentee you that no matter how much skill the Sabres had (that 05-06 team had quite a lot of it) that Grier and McKee would still be running people into the glass.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:34 PM
  #87
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockstar2866 View Post
Spacek brings nowhere near the physicality, or toughness, in both senses, than McKee did. Paille and Stafford also did not bring what Grier brought. I'd even argue that JPD was better than those two in that department as well. The difference was a drop off in both ethic and actual size used.
I'm not arguing they didn't downgrade in size and toughness by losing those three guys. I'm saying the difference isn't as extreme as it's being made out to be, and it doesn't explain all the difficulties the offense has had with consistency. Gaustad also played a bigger role in 06-07' and 07-08' than he did in 05-06'. Kotalik also took on a much more physical role.

Regardless, a trade to bring in a guy who brings a combination of what Drury and Grier brought would be very helpful. Basically a Rivet for the offense.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:42 PM
  #88
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
I'm not arguing they didn't downgrade in size and toughness by losing those three guys. I'm saying the difference isn't as extreme as it's being made out to be, and it doesn't explain all the difficulties the offense has had with consistency. Gaustad also played a bigger role in 06-07' and 07-08' than he did in 05-06'. Kotalik also took on a much more physical role.

Regardless, a trade to bring in a guy who brings a combination of what Drury and Grier brought would be very helpful. Basically a Rivet for the offense.
Disagree completely there. Kotalik was one of the most physical Sabres during the 05-06 playoffs, and it was his hit that eliminated Havlat (a renouned Sabre killer up to that point) from the 05-06 Ottawa series.

As for Gaustad, yeah he moved up and provided more physicality, but who took his place? Not anyone who was overly physical, I'll tell you that...

That 06-07 team had an abundance of skill where they could deal with getting pushed around off of the puck and still win hockey games. Lose Briere and Drury (neither of whom were "tough") and we all saw where that went last season. This team still has as much skill as any team in the league. The toughness is lacking severely.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:45 PM
  #89
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 34,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
I'm not arguing they didn't downgrade in size and toughness by losing those three guys. I'm saying the difference isn't as extreme as it's being made out to be, and it doesn't explain all the difficulties the offense has had with consistency. Gaustad also played a bigger role in 06-07' and 07-08' than he did in 05-06'. Kotalik also took on a much more physical role.

Regardless, a trade to bring in a guy who brings a combination of what Drury and Grier brought would be very helpful. Basically a Rivet for the offense.

You seem to be missing the point. Stafford and Paille didn't play enough to matter as replacements. Not to mention at that point neither played any where near the physical game Grier brought.


Dumont 6'1 205lbs replaced by Pommer 6' 185lbs. A drop of 20lbs for the FIRST line right winger.

Grier was replaced by no one. When he was here he and Drury were the 2nd line.

When the team had barely enough size and toughness to begin with the top two lines got smaller and softer.

Also until Rivet got here no one replaced McKee's physical role either.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:49 PM
  #90
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Disagree completely there. Kotalik was one of the most physical Sabres during the 05-06 playoffs, and it was his hit that eliminated Havlat (a renouned Sabre killer up to that point) from the 05-06 Ottawa series.

As for Gaustad, yeah he moved up and provided more physicality, but who took his place? Not anyone who was overly physical, I'll tell you that...

That 06-07 team had an abundance of skill where they could deal with getting pushed around off of the puck and still win hockey games. Lose Briere and Drury (neither of whom were "tough") and we all saw where that went last season. This team still has as much skill as any team in the league. The toughness is lacking severely.
Well I think you're kind of making my point here. Briere and Drury weren't physical guys, but they were mentally tough and led by example. The team still has plenty of talent, as you said, but the guys who were leading up the mental toughness department are gone, until guys like Roy and Poms can grow into that role.

I don't disagree with your point though. They aren't physical enough. If Stafford and Paille were to play to their absolute full potential in that area, it would help a lot. But, i'm definitely for bringing in a guy to help in that department.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:53 PM
  #91
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Well I think you're kind of making my point here. Briere and Drury weren't physical guys, but they were mentally tough and led by example. The team still has plenty of talent, as you said, but the guys who were leading up the mental toughness department are gone, until guys like Roy and Poms can grow into that role.

I don't disagree with your point though. They aren't physical enough. If Stafford and Paille were to play to their absolute full potential in that area, it would help a lot. But, i'm definitely for bringing in a guy to help in that department.
Mental toughness is certainly another attribute, but physical toughness has been lacking for a long time with this team...

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-01-2008, 11:54 PM
  #92
Megaera
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: New York City
Posts: 1,669
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Well I think you're kind of making my point here. Briere and Drury weren't physical guys, but they were mentally tough and led by example.
And yet the team couldn't cut it in the playoffs even with them because they lacked physical toughness. I think that's the point jflory is trying to make. It's simply not enough for a team to be mentally tough. What this team needed in 06-07 and continues to need (although Rivet will help) is physical toughness and to bring it back to the original argument, that is not what Gerbe brings for all his good and promising qualities.

Megaera is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:01 AM
  #93
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
You seem to be missing the point. Stafford and Paille didn't play enough to matter as replacements. Not to mention at that point neither played any where near the physical game Grier brought.

Dumont 6'1 205lbs replaced by Pommer 6' 185lbs. A drop of 20lbs for the FIRST line right winger.

Grier was replaced by no one. When he was here he and Drury were the 2nd line.

When the team had barely enough size and toughness to begin with the top two lines got smaller and softer.

Also until Rivet got here no one replaced McKee's physical role either.
Well they should be. Grier isn't that much bigger than Paille and Stafford. Twenty pounds heavier yes, but hardly taller. He was simply more willing to use his size on a regular basis. Paille and Stafford have that ability, and played plenty last year. (Yes I know Stafford had injury problems for a good part of the season that limited him)

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:02 AM
  #94
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Megaera View Post
And yet the team couldn't cut it in the playoffs even with them because they lacked physical toughness. I think that's the point jflory is trying to make. It's simply not enough for a team to be mentally tough. What this team needed in 06-07 and continues to need (although Rivet will help) is physical toughness and to bring it back to the original argument, that is not what Gerbe brings for all his good and promising qualities.
We will never know if the team in 06-07' was physically tough enough or not, because they played lazy for most of the playoffs.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:03 AM
  #95
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
We will never know if the team in 06-07' was physically tough enough or not, because they played lazy for most of the playoffs.
Disagree 100%

They got beat. They weren't lazy. There's nothing more annoying to me than internet posters claiming a team was lazy, especially in the playoffs. Fact is, some players aren't wired to run people through the boards. The Sabres lineup happened to be filled with them.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:06 AM
  #96
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Disagree 100%

They got beat. They weren't lazy.
Turning it on for 10 minutes a game to pull out wins is a pretty clear pattern of laziness, or at least inconsistency in effort.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:09 AM
  #97
joshjull
Moderator
 
joshjull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hamburg,NY
Country: United States
Posts: 34,310
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Well they should be. Grier isn't that much bigger than Paille and Stafford. Twenty pounds heavier yes, but hardly taller. He was simply more willing to use his size on a regular basis. Paille and Stafford have that ability, and played plenty last year. (Yes I know Stafford had injury problems for a good part of the season that limited him)

Is the underlined a joke?

As for Stafford and Paille. Paille has a history of being physical, Stafford does not. There is a difference between being physical for a finesse player (Stafford) and being a player that imposes themselves physically (Grier). Paille could develop that more at this level since he has done it at other levels. But you'r wasting your time if you think Stafford is going to become that player.

Btw, who cares how much Stafford and Paille played last year? The earlier discussion was about the drop in physical play the year after Dumont and Grier left. That would be 06-07.

joshjull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:09 AM
  #98
jflory81
Irken Elite
 
jflory81's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 21,033
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to jflory81
Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Turning it on for 10 minutes a game to pull out wins is a pretty clear pattern of laziness, or at least inconsistency in effort.
And when did that happen in the playoffs?

They may have lacked some urgency at points during the season, but the fact is they averaged a healthy goals per game against three of the best defensive teams in the East.

jflory81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:14 AM
  #99
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
Is the underlined a joke?

As for Stafford and Paille. Paille has a history of being physical, Stafford does not. There is a difference between being physical for a finesse player (Stafford) and being a player that imposes themselves physcially (Grier). Paille could develop that more at this level since he has done it at other levels. But you'r wasting your time if you think Stafford is going to become that player.

Btw, who cares how much Stafford and Paille played last year? The earlier discussion was about the drop in physical play the year after Dumont and Grier left. That would be 06-07.
Says who? I've been referring to the end of the 05-06' and on.

I never said Stafford was Mike Grier, but don't tell me these guys are all incapable of checking. Pominville was hammering people in the 05-06' playoffs. It was physicality by committee, because of the collective effort. It wasn't Grier hammering the whole opposing team while everyone else coasted around.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-02-2008, 12:15 AM
  #100
ColonelForbin
Registered User
 
ColonelForbin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,147
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
And when did that happen in the playoffs?

They may have lacked some urgency at points during the season, but the fact is they averaged a healthy goals per game against three of the best defensive teams in the East.
They had a huge problem scoring against the Rangers and Ottawa. Both teams were bigger than Buffalo, but neither destroyed them physically. They were simply outplayed.

ColonelForbin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.