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Old
10-01-2008, 11:19 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Says who? I've been referring to the end of the 05-06' and on.

I never said Stafford was Mike Grier, but don't tell me these guys are all incapable of checking. Pominville was hammering people in the 05-06' playoffs. It was physicality by committee, because of the collective effort. It wasn't Grier hammering the whole opposing team while everyone else coasted around.
Pominville "hammering" people? Wha???

And no one accused anyone on that team of "coasting around". They still got in on the boards and worked for the puck, as did last year's team and the year before. But having a guy that is molded to plaster people into the wall makes a HUGE difference in how the other team goes into the wall to play the puck. And I don't care how big you are, it takes a certain wiring to be able to do that.

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10-01-2008, 11:23 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
They had a huge problem scoring against the Rangers and Ottawa. Both teams were bigger than Buffalo, but neither destroyed them physically. They were simply outplayed.
Ottawa outplayed them because they were the hottest team in the conference for 3 months running going INTO the playoffs. It was actually pretty predictable.

The Sabres had "trouble" scoring against the Rangers because :newsflash: the Rangers were good defensively and had a REALLY good goalie. But, the Sabres scored more than 3 goals a game against a team that allowed 2.5 a game. In the playoffs. I'm sick and freaking tired of hearing the Sabres were terrible offensivly in the playoffs, because you know what? Scoring goes down in the playoffs. That's the way it goes. Buffalo scored more goals against the Isles and the Rangers than they had averaged giving up in the regular season. They beat the Isles in 5, and they beat the team in the East that had the 2nd best record after the turn of the New Year (and the Sabres weren't first).

Ottawa was the better hockey team. It had nothing to do with lazyness, or any of that BS couch sitters like to blame their team of being. Ottawa was better. Period.

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10-01-2008, 11:35 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
Ottawa outplayed them because they were the hottest team in the conference for 3 months running going INTO the playoffs. It was actually pretty predictable.

The Sabres had "trouble" scoring against the Rangers because :newsflash: the Rangers were good defensively and had a REALLY good goalie. But, the Sabres scored more than 3 goals a game against a team that allowed 2.5 a game. In the playoffs. I'm sick and freaking tired of hearing the Sabres were terrible offensivly in the playoffs, because you know what? Scoring goes down in the playoffs. That's the way it goes. Buffalo scored more goals against the Isles and the Rangers than they had averaged giving up in the regular season. They beat the Isles in 5, and they beat the team in the East that had the 2nd best record after the turn of the New Year (and the Sabres weren't first).

Ottawa was the better hockey team. It had nothing to do with lazyness, or any of that BS couch sitters like to blame their team of being. Ottawa was better. Period.
WHY was Ottawa better? They were significantly less impressive on paper than in the 05-06' season, yet their result was much improved? What other variables could be involved in that, that made them better? Yeah they were on a "hot streak", but that isn't just a random occurance. They beat the Sabres to pucks. They simply out-worked them.

I really don't understand your logic. No one discussing the team on a message board is an NHL athlete. Everyone here is a "couch sitter" by comparison. Sometimes pro-sports teams play below their potential because they are out-hustled. It happens. It's pretty absurd that you consider that possibility "annoying".

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10-01-2008, 11:46 PM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
WHY was Ottawa better? They were significantly less impressive on paper than in the 05-06' season, yet their result was much improved? What other variables could be involved in that, that made them better? Yeah they were on a "hot streak", but that isn't just a random occurance. They beat the Sabres to pucks. They simply out-worked them.

I really don't understand your logic. No one discussing the team on a message board is an NHL athlete. Everyone here is a "couch sitter" by comparison. Sometimes pro-sports teams play below their potential because they are out-hustled. It happens. It's pretty absurd that you consider that possibility "annoying".
Goaltending. Emery of the 06-07 playoffs was significantly better than the 05-06 edition, when, by the way, the Senators severely outplayed the Sabres and were beat by the hotter goaltender.

Not to mention that just about every game in both seasons was a 1 goal game in the 3rd period (or overtime) where a single goal post, missed net, or missed check can mean the difference between victory and defeat. It's not like we were beat 5-2 every single game or anything.

As for your couch sitters comment, it doesn't take being an NHL athlete to understand that the other team playing extremely well can make you look bad. Believe it or not, you can play your ass off and still look bad, especially if the other team is taking away your strength.


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10-01-2008, 11:49 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
WHY was Ottawa better? They were significantly less impressive on paper than in the 05-06' season, yet their result was much improved? What other variables could be involved in that, that made them better? Yeah they were on a "hot streak", but that isn't just a random occurance. They beat the Sabres to pucks. They simply out-worked them.

I really don't understand your logic. No one discussing the team on a message board is an NHL athlete. Everyone here is a "couch sitter" by comparison. Sometimes pro-sports teams play below their potential because they are out-hustled. It happens. It's pretty absurd that you consider that possibility "annoying".
No whats absurd is you inability to grasp what a physical player in the NHL is. Combined with your lack of understanding of how not having enough size and physical players are what did the Sabres in the 07 playoffs not laziness.

The Sabres were small and not very physical going into those 07 playoffs. Teams had begun to play the trap or variations of it to slow down their offense. It forced a team that relied on speed and finesse to get caught in a dump and chase game more often than not. Something they were ill equiped to handle. But their speed and skill on offense was enough to get them by when the few opporutinites to run and gun presented themselves in the first two rounds. But Ottawa had just as much speed as Buffalo so that advantage was negated. The Sens were also bigger and more physical. So they pounded the Sabres defense night after night. They were able to overwhelm them as the series went on.

The Sabres weren't "lazy" in those playoffs. They were forced to play outside their comfort zone because teams would try to take away their skating room with the trap. Ottawa took it one step further by punishing them physically.

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10-01-2008, 11:55 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
What exactly is the point of this?

Pointing out how the team is soft without Goose, Rivet, Mair, Kaleta and Weber is hardly panicking nor is it incorrect.

It shows how important those guys are going to be and why.
I said nothing about toughness.

I agree with you about how important those guys are and how important toughness is. In fact, I'm kind of mocking people freaking out about a preseason loss when those guys are missing.

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10-02-2008, 12:00 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
No whats absurd is you inabiltiy to grasp what a physcial player in the NHL is. Combined with your lack of understanding of how not having enough size and physical playerd are what did the Sabres in the 07 playoffs not laziness.

The Sabres were small and not very physical going into those 07 playoffs. Teams had begun to play the trap or variations of it to slow down their offense. It forced a team that relied on speed and finesse to get caught in a dump and chase game more ofetn than not. Something they were ill equiped to handle. But their speed and skill on offense was enough to get them by when the few opporutinites to run and gun presented themselves in the first two rounds. But Ottawa had just as much speed as Buffalo so that advantage was negated. The Sens were also bigger and more physical. So they pounded the Sabres defense night after night. They were able to overwhelm them as the series went on.

The Sabres weren't "lazy" in those playoffs. They were forced to play outside their comfort zone because teams would try to take away their skating room with the trap. Ottawa took it one step further by punishing them physically.

Ottaw on "paper" outplayed Buffalo most of that season head to head.
Your first statement is flat-out untrue. I don't know where you even came up with that. My first two or three posts in this thread were calls for the team to move guys like Max, CMac, and Tallinder for a more physical presence. All i'm arguing is that physicality alone is not why the Sabres didn't succeed in 06-07'. You can ignore the fact that bad habits can develop with success all you want.

When I say lazy, I don't just mean not skating. I'm talking about not finishing checks and making bad passing decisions.

I don't disagree the team needs to be more physical, and needs to bring in more physical players. The fact that you guys refuse to acknowledge that hustling and effort are variable and played at least some role is bizzare. All teams experience that from time to time.

The Sabres were often referred to as the "hardest working team in hockey" during the 05-06' season. They probably weren't the most talented and they weren't the most physical. Can you say the same thing about the team in 06-07'?

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10-02-2008, 12:01 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vcv View Post
I said nothing about toughness.

I agree with you about how important those guys are and how important toughness is. In fact, I'm kind of mocking people freaking out about a preseason loss when those guys are missing.
What exactly was the point of your post? That somehow we shouldn't complain about things we percieve as flaws?

That this team doesn't actually have flaws and that we're just nitpicking?

In all honesty, that post struck me as complaining about people complaining...except that the orignial people are commenting about what they percieve as flaws on their hockey team's board. How boring would it be if we just toed the line with Quinn?

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10-02-2008, 12:06 AM
  #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Your first statement is flat-out untrue. I don't know where you even came up with that. My first two or three posts in this thread were calls for the team to move guys like Max, CMac, and Tallinder for a more physical presence. All i'm arguing is that physicality alone is not why the Sabres didn't succeed in 06-07'. You can ignore the fact that bad habits can develop with success all you want.

When I say lazy, I don't just mean not skating. I'm talking about not finishing checks and making bad passing decisions.

I don't disagree the team needs to be more physical, and needs to bring in more physical players. The fact that you guys refuse to acknowledge that hustling and effort are variable and played at least some role is bizzare. All teams experience that from time to time.

The Sabres were often referred to as the "hardest working team in hockey" during the 05-06' season. They probably weren't the most talented and they weren't the most physical. Can you say the same thing about the team in 06-07'?
In the regular season, yes, it crops up from time to time. In the playoffs? Again, it comes down to how players are wired. I don't believe for a second that players aren't skating their ass off every second they're on the ice doing their best to win.

And it's hilarious that you term "bad passing decisions" as lazy. I mean....what? And finishing checks is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say players aren't wired a certain way. I don't care how much you yell at someone or how much they want it, certain players are NEVER going to run people into the glass going full speed. It's just not going to happen.

And again you bring up 05-06....you know when they had McKee and Grier pouding people into the glass from the top 4 of the defense and the top 9 of the offense, although I must admit I completely missed people calling them "the hardest working team in hockey"

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10-02-2008, 12:09 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
What exactly was the point of your post? That somehow we shouldn't complain about things we percieve as flaws?

That this team doesn't actually have flaws and that we're just nitpicking?

In all honesty, that post struck me as complaining about people complaining...except that the orignial people are commenting about what they percieve as flaws on their hockey team's board. How boring would it be if we just toed the line with Quinn?
No, I don't care about people talking about flaws (except for the flaws that shouldn't be flaws with our actual line-up playing).

It was mostly a light-hearted jab. No need to take offense to it.

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10-02-2008, 12:10 AM
  #111
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My head hurts from reading the 2nd half of this thread.

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10-02-2008, 12:12 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
In the regular season, yes, it crops up from time to time. In the playoffs? Again, it comes down to how players are wired. I don't believe for a second that players aren't skating their ass off every second they're on the ice doing their best to win.

And it's hilarious that you term "bad passing decisions" as lazy. I mean....what? And finishing checks is EXACTLY what I'm talking about when I say players aren't wired a certain way. I don't care how much you yell at someone or how much they want it, certain players are NEVER going to run people into the glass going full speed. It's just not going to happen.

And again you bring up 05-06....you know when they had McKee and Grier pouding people into the glass from the top 4 of the defense and the top 9 of the offense, although I must admit I completely missed people calling them "the hardest working team in hockey"
That was probably just around here.

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10-02-2008, 12:14 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by vcv View Post
No, I don't care about people talking about flaws (except for the flaws that shouldn't be flaws with our actual line-up playing).

It was mostly a light-hearted jab. No need to take offense to it.
I see you edited your response to JJ since I last saw it...in that case I kind of agree

I'll be the first to admit I haven't seen a second of Sabres hockey in the pre-season (my computer sucks too much for live on-line streams and I don't have NHL network because I'm getting Center Ice). Everything I'm saying in this thread is based on last seasons play, and my knowledge of what our roster is going to be this season.

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10-02-2008, 12:15 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
That was probably just around here.
I was around here as well as on another message board I left at the end of that season. I didn't see "hardest working team in hockey".

In fact, I saw a lot of people complaning about their work ethic when they went on a long losing streak not long before the playoffs began.

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10-02-2008, 12:17 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I see you edited your response to JJ since I last saw it...in that case I kind of agree
I have a bad habit of doing that. Wait at least 5 minutes before replying to any of my posts

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10-02-2008, 12:20 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by jflory81 View Post
I was around here as well as on another message board I left at the end of that season. I didn't see "hardest working team in hockey".

In fact, I saw a lot of people complaning about their work ethic when they went on a long losing streak not long before the playoffs began.
Could of sworn I heard that phrase somewhere. Maybe Rick, Jim, or one of the other MSG guys said something to that effect at some point.

I was impressed either way.

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10-02-2008, 01:02 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Your first statement is flat-out untrue. I don't know where you even came up with that. My first two or three posts in this thread were calls for the team to move guys like Max, CMac, and Tallinder for a more physical presence.
I came up with it after you asserted in a post that Paille and Stafford should be able to be like Grier. They just had to be more willing to use their bodies and they could be like Grier. Then made the bizare statement that Grier being 20lbs heavier didn't seem to matter since he was only an inch or so taller.

You basically dismiss physical play to being nothing other than effort. You're not the only one on this board that does this. Where in reality its a skill like any other in hockey. Like shooting, skating and passing each player is at a certain skill level. Working at it a player can get better but will not get to the level of someone thats a natural. That applies to any skill.

Quote:
All i'm arguing is that physicality alone is not why the Sabres didn't succeed in 06-07'. You can ignore the fact that bad habits can develop with success all you want.
What bad habits developed with success am I ignoring? The Sabres had the right mix in 05-06. They had just enough size, physical players and worker bees to play a dump and chase game if that was needed as well as absorb another teams physical play.

When those players leave and are not replaced with similar players. Why are you shocked that the team can't play the same way anymore?

Is it bad habits or not having the right mix of players? I would argue its not having the right mix.


Quote:
When I say lazy, I don't just mean not skating. I'm talking about not finishing checks and making bad passing decisions.
That gets back to the above. They majority of the team were players that don't really play that way (following through on hits). So to expect them to all play outside of their usually game is a tad unrealistic.

As for the bad passing decisons that gets into the discussion on how teams played against them. Much of the bad passes came about because of various defensive postures opposing teams took. Combine that with the physical play from those teams forcing many of our players (especially dmen) to rush their passes and you get lots of bad passing decisions.




Quote:
I don't disagree the team needs to be more physical, and needs to bring in more physical players. The fact that you guys refuse to acknowledge that hustling and effort are variable and played at least some role is bizzare. All teams experience that from time to time.
I agree they are variable. But I still point to the reason being the smaller Sabres were ground down over the course of the playoffs. Thats a lot different than being lazy.


Quote:
The Sabres were often referred to as the "hardest working team in hockey" during the 05-06' season. They probably weren't the most talented and they weren't the most physical. Can you say the same thing about the team in 06-07'?
The only time I ever heard the Sabres refered to the hardest working team in hockey was when Nolan was here.

As for talent, they 05-06 team was deeper, bigger and more physical than the 06-07 version.


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10-02-2008, 01:14 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I came up with it after you asserted in a post that Paille and Stafford should be able to be like Grier. They just had to be more willing to use their bodies and they could be like Grier. Then made the bizare statement that Grier being 20lbs heavier didn't seem to matter since he was only an inch or so taller.

You basically dismiss physical play to being nothing other than effort. You're not the only one on this board that does this. Where in reality its a skill like any other in hockey. Like shooting, skating and passing each player is at a certain skill level. Working at it a player can get better but will not get to the level of someone thats a natural. That applies to any skill.


What bad habits developed with success am I ignoring? The Sabres had the right mix in 05-06. They had just enough size, physical players and worker bees to play a dump and chase game if that was needed as well as absorb another teams physical play.

When those players leave and are not replaced with similar players. Why are you shocked that the team can't play the same way anymore?

Is it bad habits or not having the right mix of players? I would argue its not having the right mix.




That gets back to the above. They majority of the team were players that don't really play that way (following through on hits). So to expect them to all play outside of there usually game is a tad unrealistic.

As for the bad passing decisons that gets into the discussion on how teams played against them. Much of that came about because of various defensive postures opposing teams took. Combined with the physical play from those teams forced many of our players (especially dmen) to rush their passes.






I agrre but I still point to the reason being the smaller Sabres being ground down over the course of the playoffs. Thats a lot different than being lazy.




The only time I ever heard the Sabres refered to the hardest working team in hockey was when Nolan was here.

As for talent, they 05-06 team was deeper, bigger and more physical than the 06-07 version.
There's a lot here, all good points by the way. I bolded the part that I think gets to the main point of the argument.

I certainly agree that's true to some extent. I guess we disagree about the ratio (for lack of a better word) natural talent and effort play in physicality. The Sabres need more of both. They need to look to bring in another guy that fits that mold, and they also need more out of the guys they already have.

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10-02-2008, 01:35 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
There's a lot here, all good points by the way. I bolded the part that I think gets to the main point of the argument.

I certainly agree that's true to some extent. I guess we disagree about the ratio (for lack of a better word) natural talent and effort play in physicality. The Sabres need more of both. They need to look to bring in another guy that fits that mold, and they also need more out of the guys they already have.
I'm not sure what you mean with the bolded.


I'm just saying each player has a certain level of ability at skating, shooting, passing and physical play. The ones naturally gifted at any of those things are usually going to be the best ones at those things. Being really good at one does not preclude the ability to be really good at any of the others btw. Iginla being an example of a player thats good in all areas.

The guys who are "naturals", or as Jflory put it were wired to be physical, are the guys that don't have to think about it they just do it. That mentality and instinct can't be taught. Its not unlike a great passer that can see the ice better than other players or a great shooter who just reacts when the puck is on their stick. Those instincts can't be taught. They are just talents/instincts these players have.


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10-02-2008, 03:10 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
I'm not sure what you mean with the bolded.


I'm just saying each player has a certain level of ability at skating, shooting, passing and physical play. The ones naturally gifted at any of those things are usually going to be the best ones at those things. Being really good at one does not preclude the ability to be really good at any of the others btw. Iginla being an example of a player thats good in all areas.

The guys who are "naturals", or as Jflory put it were wired to be physical, are the guys that don't have to think about it they just do it. That mentality and instinct can't be taught. Its not unlike a great passer that can see the ice better than other players or a great shooter who just reacts when the puck is on their stick. Those instincts can't be taught. They are just talents/instincts these players have.
Ability and mentality are two different things. I don't view physicality as being in the same category as shooting, deking, stickhandling, etc. when you're talking about skills. Basically every player in the NHL who is a competent skater has the ability to finish a check if they make the decision to do so. The same can not be said about the other hockey skills. Many players in the league can't stickhandle like Connolly or deflect shots like Vanek no matter how hard they try and regardless of what their mentality is.

On the other hand, nearly any player could make a concious decision to go out of their way to throw more hits and be more physical. It may not be their natural mentality, but there isn't the same ability barrier as there is with other hockey skills. I'm basing this off of the fact that i've seen it happen. Players who wouldn't be characterized as physical hit from time to time.

Basically to sum up, I'd consider physicality maybe 30% ability and 70% mentality, while the other hockey skills are maybe 70% ability and 30% mentality. (These are just made up, arbitrary numbers, but I just thought it might help illustrate what i'm saying)

But once again, i'm not disagreeing with the fact that having guys with a natural mentality to be physical is key. If you want a consistently physical team, you need guys like that.


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10-02-2008, 07:06 AM
  #121
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Basically to sum up, I'd consider physicality maybe 30% ability and 70% mentality...
Agreed, more or less.

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10-02-2008, 08:22 AM
  #122
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Agreed, more or less.
i think there is a difference between being physical vs being a pest.

gaustad & mair come off as physical guys.

someone like kaleta comes off more as a pest.

i can see gerbe being a pest, but i can't really put him in the physical bucket.

but before this leads into a large debate, i think pests can be just as effective as controlling a game/affecting opponents as physical players.

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10-02-2008, 09:26 AM
  #123
hottytoddy
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We better not suck like that during the regular season.

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10-02-2008, 10:10 AM
  #124
misterchainsaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ColonelForbin View Post
Ability and mentality are two different things. I don't view physicality as being in the same category as shooting, deking, stickhandling, etc. when you're talking about skills. Basically every player in the NHL who is a competent skater has the ability to finish a check if they make the decision to do so. The same can not be said about the other hockey skills. Many players in the league can't stickhandle like Connolly or deflect shots like Vanek no matter how hard they try and regardless of what their mentality is.

On the other hand, nearly any player could make a concious decision to go out of their way to throw more hits and be more physical. It may not be their natural mentality, but there isn't the same ability barrier as there is with other hockey skills. I'm basing this off of the fact that i've seen it happen. Players who wouldn't be characterized as physical hit from time to time.

Basically to sum up, I'd consider physicality maybe 30% ability and 70% mentality, while the other hockey skills are maybe 70% ability and 30% mentality. (These are just made up, arbitrary numbers, but I just thought it might help illustrate what i'm saying)

But once again, i'm not disagreeing with the fact that having guys with a natural mentality to be physical is key. If you want a consistently physical team, you need guys like that.
If you have to decide to be physical while you're on the ice, you're going to be a half step behind what a natural hitter would be who acts on instinct (in all assets of the game), and you won't be as effective. That's why some players only hit "from time to time". If it were that easy, everyone would be finishing their checks.

It also can take players out of their effective game. I wouldn't want Vanek thinking too much about hitting, because then he's not acting on instinct doing what he does best, getting into areas to swoop up loose pucks and screen the goaltender. You really can't think too much out on the ice.

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10-02-2008, 11:38 AM
  #125
Dubi Doo
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