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Leafs @ Detroit Red Wings - THU Oct 9 7PM EST- 08/09 Season Opener HNIC (part 2)

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10-10-2008, 01:32 PM
  #426
ULF_55
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I also felt Mitchell would not be on this team. Now having said he's 3rd and 4th line talent and from the looks of it was light years ahead of our other prospects at this years camp.

Hopefully the next wave of talent has something more to offer then 3rd and 4th line duties. If not we're in trouble.
I think there might be some gems in college, and a sleeper or two in junior.

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10-10-2008, 01:35 PM
  #427
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I also felt Mitchell would not be on this team. Now having said he's 3rd and 4th line talent and from the looks of it was light years ahead of our other prospects at this years camp.

Hopefully the next wave of talent has something more to offer then 3rd and 4th line duties. If not we're in trouble.
So Tlusty and Kulemin, younger than Mitchell, aren't prospects and Mitchell will never get better?

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10-10-2008, 01:35 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by EazyB97 View Post
There should actually be more of it this season, since PM played man to man and RW is playing a zone. There was alot of collapsing downlow, which is now common in the nNHL. It creates alot more blocked shots and support for players in dangerous areas. The man to man break-downs were very noticeable since it usually created scoring chances. Here a zone breakdown usually results in an open point shot, since the slot is overloaded.
Sorry, i'm not quite sure what your saying we'll see more of.Do you mean 2 or 3 guys attacking one opponent down low in the d-zone?

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10-10-2008, 01:35 PM
  #429
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I expect to see a Cap reduction next summer.

Leafs may not have so much space to work with.
Following the continuing 5-6 mil increase trend, the bottom should be around 45-46 mil next summer. At the moment we only have 41mil committed with IMO 4-5 players still to be moved before July 1st next summer.

I think after all is said and done the leafs will be entering July1st with only 30mil committed leaving 15mil just to reach the cap floor. I'm not entirely sold on Gabby but Jaybo I definitely am because of the possible aftermath trades which could occur.

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10-10-2008, 01:39 PM
  #430
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I think there might be some gems in college, and a sleeper or two in junior.
That's my hope. This group of youngsters:

Dale Mitchell
Christopher DiDomenico
Tyler Ruegsegger
Chad Rau
Matt Frattin

has definitely peaked my interest. We need at least at least one player in that group to become a top six player for our team and NOT a bottom pairing "dime a dozen" player.

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10-10-2008, 01:39 PM
  #431
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Ron Wilson was fired in San Jose and replaced because he couldn't do the later and is better at the former only.

His resume shows he can take weak or expansion teams and make them into playoff teams as he did in Washington, Anaheim and SJ but fails when the expectation is more then a playoff berth.
So he's the best guy for the job? Or, he's a loser?

Quite the morning, you have Fletcher both turning the Leafs into a defensive machine and a team that is primed for a bottom 5 finish. Which is it?

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10-10-2008, 01:51 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
So he's the best guy for the job? Or, he's a loser?

Quite the morning, you have Fletcher both turning the Leafs into a defensive machine and a team that is primed for a bottom 5 finish. Which is it?
The funny thing is all those times, other than last year, he lost to one team, the Detroit Red Wings. All three loses were to them. Pretty hard to beat them and not make you look bad.

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10-10-2008, 02:03 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I expect to see a Cap reduction next summer.

Leafs may not have so much space to work with.
I think you might be right, the cap has continually gone up since the new CBA and with the economic conditions in the States (even Canada) and some of the weaker franchises having finacial challenges, i would be suprised if it didn't happen.

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10-10-2008, 02:05 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
So he's the best guy for the job? Or, he's a loser?

Quite the morning, you have Fletcher both turning the Leafs into a defensive machine and a team that is primed for a bottom 5 finish. Which is it?
The explanation is of course...

It's like the guy at the Casino playing Roulette and a guy comes up to him and says 18 is going to win, so the guy bets 18 and it loses, the bettor says nuts, looks around, can't find the the other guy with the tip and so just continues on playing, betting different numbers, then after 20 or so spins of the wheel, 18 does come up and the tipster shows up and says see told you so.

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10-10-2008, 02:08 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by ugotmybeef View Post
The funny thing is all those times, other than last year, he lost to one team, the Detroit Red Wings. All three loses were to them. Pretty hard to beat them and not make you look bad.
If you remember one of the pre-season games the Red Wings trapped Antropov at the Leafs blue line, he turned it over and Detroit scored the winning goal. Exact same way the Sharks lost to Detroit two years ago except it was Marleau that time.

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10-10-2008, 03:04 PM
  #436
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I think there might be some gems in college, and a sleeper or two in junior.
(Maybe) Jimmy Hayes, Tyler Ruegsegger in the NCAA level and Christopher DiDomencio, Mikhail Stefanovich in the Junior level.

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10-10-2008, 03:30 PM
  #437
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Further to that, I'd illustrate how certain results have no bearing on whether an individual move is good or bad. For instance, if Grabovski scores 100 points, it does not negate the 4 draft pick swing on Kyle Wellwood. As another instance, should Toronto win all 82 games, it does not negate that some assets were not maximized.
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Excellent post, very well said. Agreed completely.
Wow .. You guys have some serious deep rooted issues to deal with ..

You've created the most idealistic hypothetical examples of 100 Grabovski and perfect unbeaten season and still you would feel compelled to criticize Fletcher. Instead anointing and praising Cliff for a job well done, you think that doesn't prove you wrong.

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10-10-2008, 03:54 PM
  #438
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Quite the morning, you have Fletcher both turning the Leafs into a defensive machine and a team that is primed for a bottom 5 finish. Which is it?
Its the same thing as in both can be true very easily, and not a contradiction as you believe.

The Columbus Blue Jackets last year were one of the better defensive teams in the NHL under coach Ken Hitchcock.. The 218 GA was good enough for Top 10 in least goals against surrendered in 2007-08. Goalie Pascal Leclaire (2.25 GAA, .919 SV%), recorded 9 shutouts (2nd best in the NHL).
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Final Standings in 2007-08

24. Toronto .......... 83 points
25. Columbus ....... 80

26. NY Islanders .... 79
27. St. Louis ......... 79
28. Atlanta ........... 76
29. Los Angeles ..... 71
30. Tampa Bay ...... 71
Columbus finished with 80 points and only 1 point above a lottery position and from picking 4th in the draft, despite their impressive defensive play and top notch goaltending.

This years Toronto team will be last years Columbus team in comparison to expected results. Going to be in a lot close lower scoring games and the goals against is going to come down in the process. Leafs gave up 260 goals against last year with Toskala playing 66 games and if they reach 218 that is a 42 goal improvement which is an excellent improvement.

Not sure why you think good defensive team means you can't be a bottom finisher as I have shown you with the Columbus model.


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10-10-2008, 04:09 PM
  #439
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Its the same thing as in both can be true very easily, and not a contradiction as you believe.

The Columbus Blue Jackets last year were one of the better defensive teams in the NHL under coach Ken Hitchcock.. The 218 GA was good enough for Top 10 in least goals against surrendered in 2007-08. Goalie Pascal Leclaire recorded 9 shutouts (2nd best in the NHL).


Columbus finished with 80 points and only 1 point above a lottery position and from picking 4th in the draft, despite their impressive defensive play and top notch goaltending.

This years Toronto team will be last years Columbus team in comparison to expected results. Going to be in a lot close lower scoring games and the goals against is going to come down in the process. Leafs gave up 260 goals against last year with Toskala playing 66 games and if they reach 218 that is a 42 goal improvement which is an excellent improvement.

Not sure why you think good defensive team means you can't be a bottom finisher as I have shown you with the Columbus model.
Toronto will have to score 38 fewer goals this season for the model to work.

I know it's coming so please spare us the mathematical calculations that will prove that scenario will happen.

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10-10-2008, 04:23 PM
  #440
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Toronto will have to score 38 fewer goals this season for the model to work.

I know it's coming so please spare us the mathematical calculations that will prove that scenario will happen.
One of your greatest weaknesses is that you don't review the stats enough when forming your conclusions.

Columbus plays in the easiest division in the NHL with 3 teams (STL, CHI, and Columbus) have never made the playoffs in a Cap World and still finished only 1 point out of the draft lottery with STL and CHI finishing below them in the standings. You claim the NE Div is the toughest in the NHL in comparison. Do you think that is going to matter this year?.

Sundin scored 32 goals and Mats is not here in case you didn't notice, that just took a 30 goal scorer (78 point player) out of the line-up right there from last years total to explain goals for declining potentially by removing a teams best player. Who is replacing Mats statistically on the current roster?

So let me get this straight so I know what point your trying to make.. Your arguing that Fletcher did an excellent job based on what you saw last night, and your expectations are a much improved team over what Ferguson's Leafs 7th last team from 2007-08 delivered?

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10-10-2008, 04:49 PM
  #441
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Its the same thing as in both can be true very easily, and not a contradiction as you believe.

The Columbus Blue Jackets last year were one of the better defensive teams in the NHL under coach Ken Hitchcock.. The 218 GA was good enough for Top 10 in least goals against surrendered in 2007-08. Goalie Pascal Leclaire recorded 9 shutouts (2nd best in the NHL).


Columbus finished with 80 points and only 1 point above a lottery position and from picking 4th in the draft, despite their impressive defensive play and top notch goaltending.

This years Toronto team will be last years Columbus team in comparison to expected results. Going to be in a lot close lower scoring games and the goals against is going to come down in the process. Leafs gave up 260 goals against last year with Toskala playing 66 games and if they reach 218 that is a 42 goal improvement which is an excellent improvement.

Not sure why you think good defensive team means you can't be a bottom finisher as I have shown you with the Columbus model.
I have to disagree, I think outside of HAVING to lower our GAA total... were a team nothing like Columbus. Columbus is comparable to Minnesota in that they absolutely have to play a defensive game to have any hope of Winning a hockey game. They lack quality offensive depth and as such have to play a suffocating defensive system. We, contrary to popular belief, have alot more potential offensive capabilities or stored skill (if you will), and can compete offensively with most teams. We have one of the better offensive D's in the league, highlighted by one of the NHL's best in Kaberle, followed by Stralman/Colaiacovo/Kubina who are also quality puck moving defensemen. You might even be able to add Van Ryn to the list as well. Our forward group IMO is more offensively capable this year then last, even without Sundin. Stajan was moved from 2nd line Center to 4th line center, which alone is a significant example of the increased offensive depth within this team. Devereaux/Kilger/Wellwood/Tucker were replaced with Hagman/Kulemin/Grabovski/Moore which on skill basis is also rather significant upgrade.


In a nutshell.... Columbus plays a much more defensive system then Wilson does.. and our roster isn't anything remotely comparable to last years Blue Jacket team. So generally speaking, there really isn't anything comparable about us.

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10-10-2008, 04:55 PM
  #442
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I have to disagree, I think outside of HAVING to lower our GAA total... were a team nothing like Columbus. Columbus is comparable to Minnesota in that they absolutely have to play a defensive game to have any hope of Winning a hockey game. They lack quality offensive depth and as such have to play a suffocating defensive system. We, contrary to popular belief, have alot more potential offensive capabilities or stored skill (if you will), and can compete offensively with most teams. We have one of the better offensive D's in the league, highlighted by one of the NHL's best in Kaberle, followed by Stralman/Colaiacovo/Kubina who are also quality puck moving defensemen. You might even be able to add Van Ryn to the list as well. Our forward group IMO is more offensively capable this year then last, even without Sundin. Stajan was moved from 2nd line Center to 4th line center, which alone is a significant example of the increased offensive depth within this team. Devereaux/Kilger/Wellwood/Tucker were replaced with Hagman/Kulemin/Grabovski/Moore which on skill basis is also rather significant upgrade.


In a nutshell.... Columbus plays a much more defensive system then Wilson does.. and our roster isn't anything remotely comparable to last years Blue Jacket team. So generally speaking, there really isn't anything comparable about us.
at least Columbus had top line talent. Wow your going to use one game, however against the best, team to outlay what we're capable of. Give me a break? We're going to go with our highs and lows (more lows) this season. We're lack consistency and the game breaking skills to win if we're not in the lead.

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10-10-2008, 04:56 PM
  #443
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Can't wait to see fans morale after the month of October.

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10-10-2008, 04:58 PM
  #444
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Can't wait to see fans morale after the month of October.
my morale is where it should be right now, along with the heart attacks I have now.

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10-10-2008, 04:59 PM
  #445
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if i could be bothered id go back and find the prediction thread for this game coz i kno that after 3 pages i was the first to predict a win, and i also predicted the aftermath of "this is our year", i also predicted we lose the next 9 lol

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10-10-2008, 05:17 PM
  #446
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at least Columbus had top line talent. Wow your going to use one game, however against the best, team to outlay what we're capable of. Give me a break? We're going to go with our highs and lows (more lows) this season. We're lack consistency and the game breaking skills to win if we're not in the lead.
Nash's career high is 69 points, Kaberle's is 67...... Zherdev is overrated... Mess was talking about last years Columbus Blue Jackets. So please tell me how they had so much more "Top End Talent" then we do now. Better yet, compare last years Blue Jackets Roster to our current roster... you'll notice that outside of Nash and some over the hill vets, they still looked like an expansion team.

Second...Read my post again, and tell me once when I speculated what we're capable of? Mess compared us to last years Columbus Team, and I cited the differences.

Sometimes I wish god supplied stupid people with owner manuals to their brains....

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10-10-2008, 05:33 PM
  #447
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I have to disagree, I think outside of HAVING to lower our GAA total... were a team nothing like Columbus. Columbus is comparable to Minnesota in that they absolutely have to play a defensive game to have any hope of Winning a hockey game. They lack quality offensive depth and as such have to play a suffocating defensive system. We, contrary to popular belief, have alot more potential offensive capabilities or stored skill (if you will), and can compete offensively with most teams. We have one of the better offensive D's in the league, highlighted by one of the NHL's best in Kaberle, followed by Stralman/Colaiacovo/Kubina who are also quality puck moving defensemen. You might even be able to add Van Ryn to the list as well. Our forward group IMO is more offensively capable this year then last, even without Sundin. Stajan was moved from 2nd line Center to 4th line center, which alone is a significant example of the increased offensive depth within this team. Devereaux/Kilger/Wellwood/Tucker were replaced with Hagman/Kulemin/Grabovski/Moore which on skill basis is also rather significant upgrade.

In a nutshell.... Columbus plays a much more defensive system then Wilson does.. and our roster isn't anything remotely comparable to last years Blue Jacket team. So generally speaking, there really isn't anything comparable about us.
My whole original point before I had to explain it was that Columbus was a TOP 10 defensive team in goals against and also finished just outside the draft lottery..

Thus the two items are not mutually exclusive or a contradiction as was suggested I was arguing against myself. The Blue Jackets are the example of that that I gave where its possible.

I was giving Wilson a lot of credit as well as the new players because as you say they will never play the full trap so being as good as Columbus defensively and is likely a generous stretch on my part. The fact that the Div is tougher and the Conference much higher scoring then the West all factors playing against Leafs be as good as Columbus.

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10-10-2008, 06:10 PM
  #448
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Can't wait to see fans morale after the month of October.
Morale stay high with much beer!!

Honestly, as long as I see improvement, and continue to see this speed, forecheck, and grit along with what appears to be ACTUAL coaching, I'm a happy Spaz.

And about Wilson, no he may not have success in the playoffs, but right now I'm more worried about implementing a system and developing youngsters to solid, two-way games. And that my friends, Wilson excels at.


And for the sleeper prospect picks, I have very high hopes for Chris DiDomenico and Jimmy Hayes. Tyler Ruegsegger, Mikhail Stefanovich, and Dale Mitchell could surprise.

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10-10-2008, 06:29 PM
  #449
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One of your greatest weaknesses is that you don't review the stats enough when forming your conclusions.

Columbus plays in the easiest division in the NHL with 3 teams (STL, CHI, and Columbus) have never made the playoffs in a Cap World and still finished only 1 point out of the draft lottery with STL and CHI finishing below them in the standings. You claim the NE Div is the toughest in the NHL in comparison. Do you think that is going to matter this year?.

Sundin scored 32 goals and Mats is not here in case you didn't notice, that just took a 30 goal scorer (78 point player) out of the line-up right there from last years total to explain goals for declining potentially by removing a teams best player. Who is replacing Mats statistically on the current roster?

So let me get this straight so I know what point your trying to make.. Your arguing that Fletcher did an excellent job based on what you saw last night, and your expectations are a much improved team over what Ferguson's Leafs 7th last team from 2007-08 delivered?
Your biggest weakness is that you think that stats can prove anything, like Steve Sullivan at any point in his career was a better player than Mats Sundin. Don't see anything more silly than that but you proved it once with STATS!!!

I didn't draw any conclusions based on one game, that's kind of a silly thing to do.

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10-11-2008, 03:43 AM
  #450
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I'm not sure who said it, but there was a quote from somebody on the Wings (player or coach, once again I am not sure) after last night's game that said "That was like playing the Sharks all over again. Ignore the names, and they played the exact game the Sharks do."

Now, of course that would make sense because it's the same coach and same system. I just found that in just one game of the regular season, it was felt that the "system" has already been implemented to a tee.

Hayes, Ruegsegger, Dido and Stefanovich I feel are the best out of the "next crop" that seemingly have the best potential at being a top 6er in the NHL.

I'm not saying they will, just they certainly have the best potential.

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