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Toronto Philly trade proposal

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Old
10-11-2008, 06:00 PM
  #51
Raging Bull
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I think it's a fair deal on both sides of the table. How was Giroux's training camp?

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10-11-2008, 06:04 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Raging Bull View Post
I think it's a fair deal on both sides of the table. How was Giroux's training camp?
Decent, i think expectations were a bit high so I guess some people were disappointed. Had a goal last night in his first game for the Phantoms though

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Old
10-12-2008, 09:54 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Acekicker123 View Post
Hartnell + Giroux + 1st for Kaberle + 3rd.

Works capwise I think.
Too much for Kaberle IMHO.

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Old
10-12-2008, 01:47 PM
  #54
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im still hanging with giroux..dont want to trade him away and then kill myself when he shows how good he can really be

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Old
10-12-2008, 05:28 PM
  #55
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For the 2nd thread Ive read in a row about proposals for Kabby...

Leafs (and Kabby) turned down Carter and a 1st for Kabby...Why would we take less of an offer for Kabby?...

Leafs say No..

Carter >>>>>> Hartnell (Carter is also younger)
1st <=>Giroux (Who knows how picks turn out)

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Old
10-12-2008, 05:55 PM
  #56
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Leafs would be dumb not to do that trade. Start building up some offensive potential in their lineup.

They're not in this to win now, so might as well try and build an actual team. Kaberle is expendable.

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Old
10-12-2008, 06:13 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappo619 View Post

Leafs (and Kabby) turned down Carter and a 1st for Kabby...Why would we take less of an offer for Kabby?...

Leafs say No..
First of all you don't even know that the Leafs turned it down. In fact the knowledge that they asked Kaberle and he turned it down suggests that they were looking to do the trade.

And umm... just because something was the case 8 months ago doesn't make it the case now. Things change including the Leafs hardly improving their offense and Carter showing how dominant he can be.

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Old
10-12-2008, 06:38 PM
  #58
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Carter is a vey good young player, and had a good last 20 games, so that did change. Alex steen was a ppg player for the last 20-25 games too.

What changed more than anything is that Carter went from an entry deal to maing 5 million per season. Now he is in the same tax bracket as Eric Staal, Mark Savard, Ryan Getzlaf, Rick Nash, patrice bergeron, Roy, Pominville (80 pt players), Olli Jokinen etc

Jeff Carter is a 30g 50 pt player. He is in the salary range of stanley cup champions, 80-100pt forwards or rocket richard winners. Contemporaries like O sullivan, brown, etc make much less.

Kaberles contemporaries contracts got higher (streigh and hainsey (ugh), campbell, boyle) are either half as good and making slightly more or not quite as good making 2-3 million more.

So yes carter did slightly increase his value with his play but Iwould argue decreased his value by his contract. Kaberle's value has skyrocketed just by the fact that he is now cheaper than ron freakin hainsey.

So Philly has to add more this time

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Old
10-12-2008, 07:05 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cappo619 View Post
For the 2nd thread Ive read in a row about proposals for Kabby...

Leafs (and Kabby) turned down Carter and a 1st for Kabby...Why would we take less of an offer for Kabby?...

Leafs say No..

Carter >>>>>> Hartnell (Carter is also younger)
1st <=>Giroux (Who knows how picks turn out)
The Leafs ACCEPTED Carter and a 1st for Kaberle. Kaberle refused to waive his NTC.

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Old
10-12-2008, 07:06 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
Carter is a vey good young player, and had a good last 20 games, so that did change. Alex steen was a ppg player for the last 20-25 games too.

What changed more than anything is that Carter went from an entry deal to maing 5 million per season. Now he is in the same tax bracket as Eric Staal, Mark Savard, Ryan Getzlaf, Rick Nash, patrice bergeron, Roy, Pominville (80 pt players), Olli Jokinen etc

Jeff Carter is a 30g 50 pt player. He is in the salary range of stanley cup champions, 80-100pt forwards or rocket richard winners. Contemporaries like O sullivan, brown, etc make much less.

Kaberles contemporaries contracts got higher (streigh and hainsey (ugh), campbell, boyle) are either half as good and making slightly more or not quite as good making 2-3 million more.

So yes carter did slightly increase his value with his play but Iwould argue decreased his value by his contract. Kaberle's value has skyrocketed just by the fact that he is now cheaper than ron freakin hainsey.

So Philly has to add more this time

This is pretty much all wrong. Carter's value is higher now than it was then (definitely NOT lower), and Kaberle didn't waive his NTC to come to Philly. This deal is not going to happen. Neither side would do it as of right now.

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Old
10-12-2008, 07:58 PM
  #61
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I fail to see why I am wrong, because people said so?
how is his value higher?
He went from being a good young 23g 42 pt player (only full season) making his rookie salary to being a 29 goal 53 point player making 5 million. He almost makes as much as gagne right now.
His production does not equal his contract at all.

You do realize that Kaberle and Carter had the same number of points last year and kaberle is a defenseman? Kabs last 3 years were 53,58,67 pts.

Simple test. Look up NHL numbers and see who is at .5 million either way of both salaries and rank the players. I would say that Kab would be at the top of his class, carter would be at the bottom or close to it. Not saying he is a bad player but come on does anyone honestly believe that Carter is going to be a top 10 forward, because Kaberle is a top 10 defenseman.

I see no reason why Carter's value has gone up or even close to it. He scored 6 more goals and got like 3 million dollars for it. The increase in demonstratable production is vastly diminished by exponential cost. Kaberle is now 2.5 less then redden, campbell, boyle etc....


Steen NHL 235 48 75 123 .53 ppg
Carter 226 66 66 132 .58 ppg

Obviously carter is the better player, no doubt, but he is barely getting more points then steen. Would you trade steen for timonen?

Im not saying it has to happen or anything but value wise, Kaberle probably has the best non entry deal in hockey. Carter does not have a great contract. Carter is no where near worth kaberle. Kaberle is the far superior player on the far better contract.

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Old
10-12-2008, 09:33 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
I fail to see why I am wrong, because people said so?
how is his value higher?
He went from being a good young 23g 42 pt player (only full season) making his rookie salary to being a 29 goal 53 point player making 5 million. He almost makes as much as gagne right now.
His production does not equal his contract at all.

You do realize that Kaberle and Carter had the same number of points last year and kaberle is a defenseman? Kabs last 3 years were 53,58,67 pts.

Simple test. Look up NHL numbers and see who is at .5 million either way of both salaries and rank the players. I would say that Kab would be at the top of his class, carter would be at the bottom or close to it. Not saying he is a bad player but come on does anyone honestly believe that Carter is going to be a top 10 forward, because Kaberle is a top 10 defenseman.

I see no reason why Carter's value has gone up or even close to it. He scored 6 more goals and got like 3 million dollars for it. The increase in demonstratable production is vastly diminished by exponential cost. Kaberle is now 2.5 less then redden, campbell, boyle etc....


Steen NHL 235 48 75 123 .53 ppg
Carter 226 66 66 132 .58 ppg

Obviously carter is the better player, no doubt, but he is barely getting more points then steen. Would you trade steen for timonen?

Im not saying it has to happen or anything but value wise, Kaberle probably has the best non entry deal in hockey. Carter does not have a great contract. Carter is no where near worth kaberle. Kaberle is the far superior player on the far better contract.
interesting comparison.

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Old
10-12-2008, 09:41 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
I fail to see why I am wrong, because people said so?
how is his value higher?
He went from being a good young 23g 42 pt player (only full season) making his rookie salary to being a 29 goal 53 point player making 5 million. He almost makes as much as gagne right now.
His production does not equal his contract at all.

You do realize that Kaberle and Carter had the same number of points last year and kaberle is a defenseman? Kabs last 3 years were 53,58,67 pts.

Simple test. Look up NHL numbers and see who is at .5 million either way of both salaries and rank the players. I would say that Kab would be at the top of his class, carter would be at the bottom or close to it. Not saying he is a bad player but come on does anyone honestly believe that Carter is going to be a top 10 forward, because Kaberle is a top 10 defenseman.

I see no reason why Carter's value has gone up or even close to it. He scored 6 more goals and got like 3 million dollars for it. The increase in demonstratable production is vastly diminished by exponential cost. Kaberle is now 2.5 less then redden, campbell, boyle etc....


Steen NHL 235 48 75 123 .53 ppg
Carter 226 66 66 132 .58 ppg

Obviously carter is the better player, no doubt, but he is barely getting more points then steen. Would you trade steen for timonen?

Im not saying it has to happen or anything but value wise, Kaberle probably has the best non entry deal in hockey. Carter does not have a great contract. Carter is no where near worth kaberle. Kaberle is the far superior player on the far better contract.
its unfair to just use points as a comparison. it really neglects the other strong points of his game.

also, the flyers were kind of forced to pay for potential. if philly didn't give him 5, i'm positive some other team would have done it with an offersheet. a player is worth whatever teams think he is worth; it's not as clear cut as we would like to think.

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Old
10-12-2008, 09:41 PM
  #64
mercury
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Krazy View Post
I fail to see why I am wrong, because people said so?
how is his value higher?
Yes, Carter's value is higher now than it was then. I honestly do not think either team would do the deadline deal now, so it's a moot point.

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Old
10-12-2008, 10:28 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by LEIFey View Post
its unfair to just use points as a comparison. it really neglects the other strong points of his game.

also, the flyers were kind of forced to pay for potential. if philly didn't give him 5, i'm positive some other team would have done it with an offersheet. a player is worth whatever teams think he is worth; it's not as clear cut as we would like to think.
Steen's strongest asset is his defensive play, so I think a points comparison would be more tilted in Carter's favour than Steen's IMO.

What Carter has over Steen isn't all-around ability. It's potential, and lots of it.

Both are similar right now points wise, but Steen's potential tops out at 50-60 points while Carter likely in the 80 point range.

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10-12-2008, 10:49 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Flyersguru View Post
He'd be a sour puss in the locker room because he was traded.
That doesn't make any sense.

He would be a sour puss in the dressing room of the team that he decided he would like to play for? Why would he accept the trade if he didn't want to play there?

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10-12-2008, 10:51 PM
  #67
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i highly doubt the flyers trade lupul so soon after resigning him. plus, not enough salary going back to toronto.
Yeah probably a good point.

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Old
10-12-2008, 11:24 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acekicker123 View Post
Steen's strongest asset is his defensive play, so I think a points comparison would be more tilted in Carter's favour than Steen's IMO.

What Carter has over Steen isn't all-around ability. It's potential, and lots of it.

Both are similar right now points wise, but Steen's potential tops out at 50-60 points while Carter likely in the 80 point range.
i wasn't making a comparison of either player, just stating that points is a single way to look at a multisided issue.

i admit i haven't seen much of steen, but carter is no poor shake at defensive ability. he's also a very good two-way player with pretty good all-around ability (could pass more, or at the very least hit the net more with that sick shot).

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Old
10-13-2008, 10:48 AM
  #69
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Lupul + Nodl or 1st for Kab at trade deadline when Phil are in the playoffs and Tor arent

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