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Randy Jones (UPDATE -- Scheduled absence reduced -- Post #139)

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Old
10-12-2008, 12:57 PM
  #101
BillyShoe1721
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I say we go after Cam Barker

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10-12-2008, 01:03 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by mm6492 View Post
Jones played good in the playoffs and Parent was supposed to step us this year. I think he esxpected Jones to be the #3 with that contract
At his best, Randy Jones is a #4...and Parent is a rookie. I expect big things from Parent, but he wasn't going to be a legit 2nd pairing D the first half of this season.

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Yes guys are going to get hurt, but you are looking at 2 guys who were expected to be big, big contributors this season. I mean, if you take off any 2 members of any team's top-6 in the NHL, that team will be experiencing some trouble.
We're not talking about any team. We're talking about a team with the forward talent to compete for a Cup and then some...but completely lacking the support from the blue line. THAT is on Holmgren. He could have used the massive strength of this team to strengthen a major weakness on this team, or at least tried something other than the "see what sticks" strategy he did with this defense...not to mention the horrid contract he gave to Jones.

The intellectual approach to this teams construction showed a paucity of critical thinking...and now an obviously predictable situation (name a single season in recent memory where we haven't lost 2 D for significant stretches...) is leaving us with a pathetic NHL defensive corps.

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I mean, I just pointed out that we have 8 NHL d-men in the organization, not including Sbisa. How many more do you want, 10? You're expecting 3 NHL d-men to be happy playing for the Phantoms?
Well, the real question is whether you named 8 NHL d-men.

Clearly Making the Cut:
Timonen
Coburn

Questionable, but okay:
Jones - he struggled for vast swathes of last year and was a healthy scratch on the worst team in the league the year before.
Kukkonen - as a third pairing guy, he has a spot in this league.

Are they really NHL D?
Vaananen - didn't play in the league last year.
Eminger - healthy scratch on a Mediocre D for 75% of last season.
Parent - rookie, we'll find out.
Guenin - are we really serious with labeling him a NHL D? He's played 11 NHL games.

So, really, the problem isn't that 3 NHL guys would be playing for the Phantoms. It's that your stretching the bona fides of this group considerably. Best case scenario, the bottom two pairings are average for the NHL. Worst case scenario, they have no business being in the NHL.

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If the organization expects Sbisa to be important, I think they're insane, but what are they supposed to say publicly?

"We lost 2 expected members of our top-6 D, so Luca is a stopgap solution while we desperately try to get another veteran in here." Somehow I don't think that would be great for his confidence.
Isn't a matter of sanity or insanity. Holmgren constructed a situation where he has little choice. Certainly they should build the kid up while he is here.

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As I said in the GDT, it seems like we finally have some pieces. Eminger definitely looks talented and while I'm not a big Stevens guy, he is pretty good at developing young talent.
Eminger looked awful in that game. Blowing coverage, dumb passes in dangerous places...

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I dunno, we need to work on the team D and cutting down on turnovers, but I think there are the makings of a good defense in this group, I was particularly impressed with Vaananen who I thought played a very solid 20 minutes.
Vaananen was fine last night, but if he's playing 20 minutes a night for us this year...that's a problem.

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10-12-2008, 01:22 PM
  #103
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Why isn't he under the knife? What are we waiting for?


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Old
10-12-2008, 07:13 PM
  #104
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generally speaking, but does this make the flyers rush to get hatch back to the line up?

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10-12-2008, 07:37 PM
  #105
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generally speaking, but does this make the flyers rush to get hatch back to the line up?
they don't have the cap space right now even if they wanted to get him in there.

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10-12-2008, 07:38 PM
  #106
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I'll write a reply tmrw, I'm too tired right now.

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10-12-2008, 07:42 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
they don't have the cap space right now even if they wanted to get him in there.
ahh, okay. Thanks for clearing that up man.

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Old
10-12-2008, 08:19 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Vaananen was fine last night, but if he's playing 20 minutes a night for us this year...that's a problem.
Care to elaborate on that? This is a guy who has over 400 NHL games under his belt. Why not play him 20 minutes a night for the first little while until everyone gets healthy?

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10-12-2008, 08:23 PM
  #109
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I like Van, I think he played pretty well

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Old
10-13-2008, 12:02 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Care to elaborate on that? This is a guy who has over 400 NHL games under his belt. Why not play him 20 minutes a night for the first little while until everyone gets healthy?
Because he's not a 20 minute a night player. Frankly, Timonen and Coburn are the only D we have under contract that are.

Clearly he will be playing that role until we get healthy...and, look at the roster, would you be shocked if it went past the health problems? That's a problem.

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10-13-2008, 12:40 AM
  #111
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Vaananen kind of was a top 4 (if that) d-man when he was with Phoenix, kind of by default I think, it wasn't like they had guys behind him who were better than him and they only made the playoffs once, largely on smoke and mirrors, he was an improving young player and then he got hurt and clearly is not that anymore.

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10-13-2008, 01:37 AM
  #112
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Well, that's two of our top 6 out for the first 3-4 months of the season. Yeesh.

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10-13-2008, 02:32 AM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
generally speaking, but does this make the flyers rush to get hatch back to the line up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
they don't have the cap space right now even if they wanted to get him in there.

There's an article here (GDT maybe?) that says that if Jones and Parent go on LTIR we'll have the room for Hatch. Without knowing how bad his knees truly are, I wouldn't mind seeing Hatch play for us again, but I think that potentially opens a can of worms though. First, people (read: the NHL and other GMs) will think it was shady that he was there to begin with, and is suddenly healthy when we get key injuries to our blue line. Which leads to #2-to me, it would make if difficult to put him back on LTIR once Jones and/or Parent is ready.

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10-13-2008, 02:42 AM
  #114
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I say we go after Cam Barker
I love this post.

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10-13-2008, 05:20 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by dbr2 View Post
generally speaking, but does this make the flyers rush to get hatch back to the line up?

Quote:
Stevens said injured defenseman Derian Hatcher (knee) is not skating yet and "isn't close" to getting back into the lineup. . . .
source

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Old
10-13-2008, 11:28 AM
  #116
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Okay just a couple things.

1) I think nearly everybody was expecting Parent to become a 2nd pairing D by some point this season, I personally have said I expected it after around Game 50 and I thought it would be huge because he's the type of guy that will be able to play 21-22 solid minutes per night.

2) How do you know Holmgren didn't try to do anything? I mean, D right now is at a premium. Would you have been happy with a Lupul for Ohlund trade or something like that? The Flyers were definitely in the J-Bouw sweepstakes, I think it's obvious Holmgren has tried to improve, but top-4 D are just crazy expensive right now.

3) We've been over the Eminger on WSH situation 500x, Boudreau wanted a top-4 (Green, Poti, Schultz, Morrison) and then an extra 2 thugs (Jurcina, Erskine) for the bottom pairing. Also, Eminger is just a classic, classic needs a change of scenery type guy. I think his decision-making needs some work, but I think you can attribute that to a lot of things, he wasn't the only guy out there making mistakes. The key for him is confidence IMO.

4) I'm also a Vaananen believer, especially after seeing him last night, he won't give us much offensively, but he moves pretty well and is solid in his own end.

5) Injuries definitely happen, but I think it's unfair for Holmgren to expect 2 14-week injuries before the season even starts, that's definitely a strong kick in the teeth.

Anyways, it'll be interesting so see how the situation plays out in the future.

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Old
10-13-2008, 11:35 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobbyClarkeFan16 View Post
Care to elaborate on that? This is a guy who has over 400 NHL games under his belt. Why not play him 20 minutes a night for the first little while until everyone gets healthy?
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Because he's not a 20 minute a night player. Frankly, Timonen and Coburn are the only D we have under contract that are.

Clearly he will be playing that role until we get healthy...and, look at the roster, would you be shocked if it went past the health problems? That's a problem.
I am fine with Vaananen playing 20 minutes a night. Didnt he do that in Colorado? He played top 4 both in Phoenix and Colorado.

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Okay just a couple things.

1) I think nearly everybody was expecting Parent to become a 2nd pairing D by some point this season, I personally have said I expected it after around Game 50 and I thought it would be huge because he's the type of guy that will be able to play 21-22 solid minutes per night.

2) How do you know Holmgren didn't try to do anything? I mean, D right now is at a premium. Would you have been happy with a Lupul for Ohlund trade or something like that? The Flyers were definitely in the J-Bouw sweepstakes, I think it's obvious Holmgren has tried to improve, but top-4 D are just crazy expensive right now.

3) We've been over the Eminger on WSH situation 500x, Boudreau wanted a top-4 (Green, Poti, Schultz, Morrison) and then an extra 2 thugs (Jurcina, Erskine) for the bottom pairing. Also, Eminger is just a classic, classic needs a change of scenery type guy. I think his decision-making needs some work, but I think you can attribute that to a lot of things, he wasn't the only guy out there making mistakes. The key for him is confidence IMO.

4) I'm also a Vaananen believer, especially after seeing him last night, he won't give us much offensively, but he moves pretty well and is solid in his own end.

5) Injuries definitely happen, but I think it's unfair for Holmgren to expect 2 14-week injuries before the season even starts, that's definitely a strong kick in the teeth.

Anyways, it'll be interesting so see how the situation plays out in the future.
Nice post.

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Old
10-13-2008, 12:37 PM
  #118
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Randy Jones is on LTIR as of today. Theoretically opening up another contract spot.

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10-13-2008, 01:14 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Okay just a couple things.

1) I think nearly everybody was expecting Parent to become a 2nd pairing D by some point this season, I personally have said I expected it after around Game 50 and I thought it would be huge because he's the type of guy that will be able to play 21-22 solid minutes per night.
Expectations and reality are two different things. High prospects always have high expectations attached to them...sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. Thinking Parent might develop into a 2nd pairing guy this year (and I do believe he has a good chance of it), doesn't make him one today and doesn't mean he ever will be one. If he doesn't...what then? We got nothing.

Quote:
2) How do you know Holmgren didn't try to do anything? I mean, D right now is at a premium. Would you have been happy with a Lupul for Ohlund trade or something like that? The Flyers were definitely in the J-Bouw sweepstakes, I think it's obvious Holmgren has tried to improve, but top-4 D are just crazy expensive right now.
Crazy expensive...and Crazy necessary. They're expensive because you absolutely have to have 'em if you're going to consistently compete. You want to win? Pay the price.

Holmgren may very well have tried to do something this offseason...but he didn't get it done, and that's on him. Sports results, at the end of the day, are one of the few binary things in life. There's lots of gray area until the final whistle, but once it sounds you either won or lost...either got the guy you need, or didn't.

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3) We've been over the Eminger on WSH situation 500x, Boudreau wanted a top-4 (Green, Poti, Schultz, Morrison) and then an extra 2 thugs (Jurcina, Erskine) for the bottom pairing. Also, Eminger is just a classic, classic needs a change of scenery type guy. I think his decision-making needs some work, but I think you can attribute that to a lot of things, he wasn't the only guy out there making mistakes. The key for him is confidence IMO.
That's all fine and good...but can you really not see how effing Flyer-biased that narrative you just told is? If Eminger was good enough, he's on the ice for the Caps...it's that simple. The rest of what you wrote is rationalization for why he wasn't on the ice. He very may well turn it around here, but after 200 NHL games it's far more likely he is getting to be what he is with a quickness...a guy touted as a two-way player with a career high of 20 pts isn't getting me excited.

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4) I'm also a Vaananen believer, especially after seeing him last night, he won't give us much offensively, but he moves pretty well and is solid in his own end.
He's a third pairing guy. Fine at what he does, but nothing special and certainly not someone we want to be banking on for 20 minutes a night--meaning a pivotal player for this team this year. That's how weak our D is.

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5) Injuries definitely happen, but I think it's unfair for Holmgren to expect 2 14-week injuries before the season even starts, that's definitely a strong kick in the teeth.
Before, during...whatever, it doesn't really matter. You have to have the ability to play with significant injuries on your roster. We don't have that ability. That's on the GM.

I have been one of the strongest critics of Stevens from the word go, but I'll flat out tell you that this team, this year, is a terribly flawed one from the management side. They've given Stevens a really raw deal on the blue line and did NOTHING to fix this teams personnel problems from last year. Last year the system wasn't tailored to the personnel we had, but our personnel were consistent and you knew what you were going to get. This year we got a whole lot of ???? and basically the hope that some of them will work out. If you want to give Holmgren the thumbs up on this offseason, that's fine. I'm not. He's too committed to his forwards, and has failed to construct a balanced team.

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10-13-2008, 01:17 PM
  #120
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I am fine with Vaananen playing 20 minutes a night. Didnt he do that in Colorado? He played top 4 both in Phoenix and Colorado.
His ice-time plummted following the car accident and other injuries.

His final two years in the league he played 13 and 14 minutes a night. Sure, he may have improved since then...but I'm not buying him as a 20 minute a night player.

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10-13-2008, 01:41 PM
  #121
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His ice-time plummted following the car accident and other injuries.

His final two years in the league he played 13 and 14 minutes a night. Sure, he may have improved since then...but I'm not buying him as a 20 minute a night player.
It's not like we have a lot of options.

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10-13-2008, 01:42 PM
  #122
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It's not like we have a lot of options.
Not arguing that...noting that this is the problem.

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10-13-2008, 02:11 PM
  #123
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Expectations and reality are two different things. High prospects always have high expectations attached to them...sometimes fairly, sometimes unfairly. Thinking Parent might develop into a 2nd pairing guy this year (and I do believe he has a good chance of it), doesn't make him one today and doesn't mean he ever will be one. If he doesn't...what then? We got nothing.
Parent is as close to a guarantee as you get. Good size, good speed, calm, smart, etc. If he doesn't become a legit 2nd pairing shutdown D, I would be totally floored. Even in a playoff race atmosphere as a rookie last year, I thought he did okay. He made mistakes, but I thought he did alright. He's an important part of this team's future.

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Originally Posted by Jester
Crazy expensive...and Crazy necessary. They're expensive because you absolutely have to have 'em if you're going to consistently compete. You want to win? Pay the price.

Holmgren may very well have tried to do something this offseason...but he didn't get it done, and that's on him. Sports results, at the end of the day, are one of the few binary things in life. There's lots of gray area until the final whistle, but once it sounds you either won or lost...either got the guy you need, or didn't.

That's all fine and good...but can you really not see how effing Flyer-biased that narrative you just told is? If Eminger was good enough, he's on the ice for the Caps...it's that simple. The rest of what you wrote is rationalization for why he wasn't on the ice. He very may well turn it around here, but after 200 NHL games it's far more likely he is getting to be what he is with a quickness...a guy touted as a two-way player with a career high of 20 pts isn't getting me excited.
Okay, so let me get this straight. You accuse me of panicking during Phillies games and then are prepared to completely write off our Defense after 1 game of an 82 game season?

Eminger is definitely someone with potential. He literally has all the tools, what he needs is A) Confidence and B) a solid, defensive partner to cover him. I don't think he has the best instincts in the world, but with a solid defensive partner alongside him, I think he'll be alright.

I mean, Coburn was playing 11 minutes a night on the Thrashers before he came here, were you writing him off then? It's pretty obvious that Eminger has good, raw talent and I'm glad Homer took a shot at him rather than overpaying for some vet.

I don't want to get too complacent, but this team's window is open pretty much for the next 5-10 years and doesn't even fully open until next year. I'm willing to watch a couple experiments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
He's a third pairing guy. Fine at what he does, but nothing special and certainly not someone we want to be banking on for 20 minutes a night--meaning a pivotal player for this team this year. That's how weak our D is.
We'll see, apparently he took that year off last year in the SEL to really work on his speed which had been the thing holding him back after his injuries in Colorado. I don't want to make assumptions 1 game in, but based on Saturday's performance, I'd be okay with him getting 18-19 minutes and being a big PKer.

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Originally Posted by Jester
Before, during...whatever, it doesn't really matter. You have to have the ability to play with significant injuries on your roster. We don't have that ability. That's on the GM.
Dude seriously, name me any team in the league that wouldn't be in trouble after loosing 2 top-6 D like this. You think Detroit would be just fine if they lost Kronwall and Stuart? Would MTL be fine without Hamrlik and O'Byrne? Would SJ be fine without Ehrhoff and Murray?

In a non-cap world, I can see this argument. But you just can't have infinite depth in the cap world. I mean, is our loss in 2004 Clarkie's fault for not adding more defensemen?

Homer obviously realized that there was a problem, that's why you don't see Hatcher, Smith, and Modry around the locker room anymore. He chose a solution, one that you disagree with.

That's fine, but to take one game, our first game of the season against a team that had already played 3, and use it as evidence that his strategy has completely failed is just stupid.

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10-13-2008, 03:06 PM
  #124
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Parent is as close to a guarantee as you get. Good size, good speed, calm, smart, etc. If he doesn't become a legit 2nd pairing shutdown D, I would be totally floored. Even in a playoff race atmosphere as a rookie last year, I thought he did okay. He made mistakes, but I thought he did alright. He's an important part of this team's future.
There are, quite literally, 60 guys in the world capable of playing that role. 60. Is Parent a good prospect with a good upside? Absolutely. Does that mean he's a shoe-in to be one of those 60? No.

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Okay, so let me get this straight. You accuse me of panicking during Phillies games and then are prepared to completely write off our Defense after 1 game of an 82 game season?
My views have nothing to do with the first game of the season. I've been expressing these views since June.

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Eminger is definitely someone with potential. He literally has all the tools, what he needs is A) Confidence and B) a solid, defensive partner to cover him. I don't think he has the best instincts in the world, but with a solid defensive partner alongside him, I think he'll be alright.
Eminger is a 1st round bust through the first 200 games of his NHL career. That's what he is. A reclamation project...most reclamation projects don't get reclaimed.

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I mean, Coburn was playing 11 minutes a night on the Thrashers before he came here, were you writing him off then? It's pretty obvious that Eminger has good, raw talent and I'm glad Homer took a shot at him rather than overpaying for some vet.
Coburn had played in 38 games before coming to the Flyers...he hadn't been given a chance. Eminger has played in over 200...he was given a lot of chances and didn't make muster. Big difference and a poor comparison.

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I don't want to get too complacent, but this team's window is open pretty much for the next 5-10 years and doesn't even fully open until next year. I'm willing to watch a couple experiments.
Yes...the next 5-10 years with a contract structure that is ossifying heavily in favor of spending on the forwards.

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We'll see, apparently he took that year off last year in the SEL to really work on his speed which had been the thing holding him back after his injuries in Colorado. I don't want to make assumptions 1 game in, but based on Saturday's performance, I'd be okay with him getting 18-19 minutes and being a big PKer.
A marginal NHL player went and played well in a weaker league? Shocking...Kukkonen was a stud in the Finnish league.

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Dude seriously, name me any team in the league that wouldn't be in trouble after loosing 2 top-6 D like this. You think Detroit would be just fine if they lost Kronwall and Stuart? Would MTL be fine without Hamrlik and O'Byrne? Would SJ be fine without Ehrhoff and Murray?
There's a difference between struggling and having Option A be an 18 y/o kid, who is now our 2nd pairing defenseman. That's a developing greek tragedy. Meanwhile, guy who left the NHL to play in the SEL is now playing on our "1st pairing," and Timonen is going to be playing 30 minutes a night in an attempt to keep some semblance of a competitive defense on the ice.

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In a non-cap world, I can see this argument. But you just can't have infinite depth in the cap world. I mean, is our loss in 2004 Clarkie's fault for not adding more defensemen?
Trading Weinrich and Therien away looks pretty damn stupid in retrospect...no?

In a cap world it's even more important to structure your team in an intelligent fashion. Most important positions: goalie, defense, center.

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Homer obviously realized that there was a problem, that's why you don't see Hatcher, Smith, and Modry around the locker room anymore. He chose a solution, one that you disagree with.
What solution? He started collecting third pairing D and praying to God that one of 'em would "step up," and signed Randy Jones to an egregiously poor contract that was backed by some of the dumbest logic I've ever seen in print. Why they didn't take him to arbitration, or see if someone would make him an offer remains inexplicable.

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That's fine, but to take one game, our first game of the season against a team that had already played 3, and use it as evidence that his strategy has completely failed is just stupid.
As noted, my thought process--as you well know, btw--has nothing to do with that one game. The entire situation on defense is a mess, that's not really deniable.

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10-13-2008, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
There are, quite literally, 60 guys in the world capable of playing that role. 60. Is Parent a good prospect with a good upside? Absolutely. Does that mean he's a shoe-in to be one of those 60? No.
I would love for you to name me 60 guys with Parent's speed, defensive instinct, size and outlet pass ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
My views have nothing to do with the first game of the season. I've been expressing these views since June.
True, but believe it or not, 1 game doesn't prove that your views are right or wrong. If the D is still crap in game 40, then yes there is a problem. But it's way too early to be making judgments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Eminger is a 1st round bust through the first 200 games of his NHL career. That's what he is. A reclamation project...most reclamation projects don't get reclaimed.

Coburn had played in 38 games before coming to the Flyers...he hadn't been given a chance. Eminger has played in over 200...he was given a lot of chances and didn't make muster. Big difference and a poor comparison.
I honestly don't see how giving a kid playing time for years as an 18, 19, and 20 year-old on awful defensive teams is "giving him a chance." I mean, it's giving him a chance to fail, but how many kids are going to succeed in that situation? Especially a kid like Eminger whose strength is tools, not instincts (no harm in admitting that, it's true).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Yes...the next 5-10 years with a contract structure that is ossifying heavily in favor of spending on the forwards.
They have some limited flexibility. Lupul is very tradeable, so is Carter and they have 10 mill coming off in 3 years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
A marginal NHL player went and played well in a weaker league? Shocking...Kukkonen was a stud in the Finnish league.
My point wasn't about Vaananen in the SEL, my point was that he realized he needed to adapt to the new NHL and he went to the SEL specifically so that he could work on doing that and considering he looked to have average speed on Saturday, I'd say early results are positive. Realistically his ceiling is a No.4, but that's not too bad especially if they can move him down to the 3rd pairing later in the year once everyone is healthy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
There's a difference between struggling and having Option A be an 18 y/o kid, who is now our 2nd pairing defenseman. That's a developing greek tragedy. Meanwhile, guy who left the NHL to play in the SEL is now playing on our "1st pairing," and Timonen is going to be playing 30 minutes a night in an attempt to keep some semblance of a competitive defense on the ice.
C'mon man, your 18 year-old kid has been Option A for 1-2 games, why else do you think they made the Alberts trade? And they've specifically said that they want to cut Kimmo's time by 5-6 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
Trading Weinrich and Therien away looks pretty damn stupid in retrospect...no?
Yes, I'm sure Chris Therien would have saved our season, too bad we weren't playing against Jagr.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
In a cap world it's even more important to structure your team in an intelligent fashion. Most important positions: goalie, defense, center.
Canes won a Cup with forwards and Pitt made it to the Finals with great forwards and good team defense and the last 2 defensive oriented teams that have won have had Hall of Fame caliber defensemen anchoring their bluelines, we're not going to have anybody like that any time soon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester
What solution? He started collecting third pairing D and praying to God that one of 'em would "step up," and signed Randy Jones to an egregiously poor contract that was backed by some of the dumbest logic I've ever seen in print. Why they didn't take him to arbitration, or see if someone would make him an offer remains inexplicable.
Are we still freaking out about the 2-year Randy Jones contract? I mean, if that's Holmgren's worst move as a GM, then we are sitting pretty.

I asked you this over the summer and I'll ask you again, what would you have done differently? Name me realistic players that you would have targeted outside of J-Bouw who is obviously going to cost 2 arms and a leg. From what Muir was saying in his column, it sounded like his price would be Carter, JVR, and a 1st.

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