So I just picked up my Esposito figure in a habs uniform and it got me thinking. Had the Habs kept Esposito over Vachon would Dryden have ever suited up for the Habs in 71? Would he have gone on to success elsewhere? Would Esposito have as many or more cups than Dryden has? I know Espo was a hell of a goalie.
If the Habs keep Espo, and he becomes their #1 tender, they don't win the 1971 cup. They are probably more legit contenders in 74, 75, and 1980 but have more trouble winning in 76-79.
So I just picked up my Esposito figure in a habs uniform and it got me thinking. Had the Habs kept Esposito over Vachon would Dryden have ever suited up for the Habs in 71? Would he have gone on to success elsewhere? Would Esposito have as many or more cups than Dryden has? I know Espo was a hell of a goalie.
It's a bit before my time, but just looking at their ages, Esposito was already 25 when he made his rookie debut (2 years older than Vachon and 4 years older than Dryden). Teams don't generally bet their future on 25 year old rookies.
Vachon had played well in the regular season and was excellent in the playoffs that year. It wasn't until Dryden's stunning playoff performance that Vachon lost his job.
IF Esposito had stayed with Montreal, then it's tough to say, but Esposito's record in the playoffs is not encouraging. Aside from his excellent performance in 70-71, his playoff record is spotty at best, and the Blackhawks were a pretty good team in the early-mid 70s.
Would Dryden be as successful elsewhere? Personally, I don't think so (unless it was Boston or Philadelphia). He tended to give up a lot of rebounds and wasn't terribly mobile. With Montreal's defensive corp, this wasn't a big problem (as Phil Esposito would attest to), since Dryden was usually very reliable on the first shot.
Bowman liked Dryden precisely because he was reliable and consistent...not qualities that Esposito was noted for. IMO, Dryden was the type of goalie that wouldn't lose games, but he wasn't going to steal many either. Esposito could steal games, but he could lose them for you too. I just don't think that Esposito's somewhat erratic play would sit well in Montreal for very long even if he had taken Vachon's job.
Dryden needed to have good D to play well, but he was also the type of goalie that a good team needs to be a great team.
If the Habs keep Espo, and he becomes their #1 tender, they don't win the 1971 cup. They are probably more legit contenders in 74, 75, and 1980 but have more trouble winning in 76-79.
I dont understand? You think they have MORE trouble winning in Lafleur's prime years than the other way around? Even with Espo the Habs dont win as much. Like mentioned before he could be inconsistent. Dryden was more solid. Esposito also had a great team in Chicago but failed to do anything with it. He has a surprisingly under par playoff record for a HHOFer goalie. You'd think more from him.
I dont understand? You think they have MORE trouble winning in Lafleur's prime years than the other way around? Even with Espo the Habs dont win as much. Like mentioned before he could be inconsistent. Dryden was more solid. Esposito also had a great team in Chicago but failed to do anything with it. He has a surprisingly under par playoff record for a HHOFer goalie. You'd think more from him.
I said the Habs would have had more trouble winning the cup in the dynasty years of 1976-79 if they had Espo, rather than Dryden. They still would have won some, but it would have been tougher and I'm not convinced they win all 4. That 1979 would have been tough.
They don't win in 1971 with Espo. I don't have an opinion on 1973.
I think they would have been in better shape in 1974 since Dryden held out, and in 1975 when Dryden had the worst year of his NHL career. I also think they would have been better in 1980 with Espo, since Dryden was retired. They would have been more of a contender these three years with Espo, but I'm not convinced they win one of those.
I think that Ken Dryden was a somewhat overrated goalie who had the luxury of playing on some powerhouse teams.
On the other side of the coin, Tony Esposito was a guy who IMO, played too long and should have retired earlier than he did. I saw him play at the end of his career and he was really slow.
The Habs would have had all of the success that they had in the seventies and probably even a bit more if they'd had Tony in the nets instead of Dryden.
I think the Habs would have had just as much success if not more with Tony O as their goalie from 1968 to 1982. Chicago was no where near the team Montreal was and Esposito still managed 7 consecutive 30+ win seasons. I can't comment on his consistency but I doubt the Habs would have suffered any for his replacing Dryden.
I think the Habs would have had just as much success if not more with Tony O as their goalie from 1968 to 1982. Chicago was no where near the team Montreal was and Esposito still managed 7 consecutive 30+ win seasons. I can't comment on his consistency but I doubt the Habs would have suffered any for his replacing Dryden.
In 1971 Chicago was pretty clearly the better team. Dryden outplayed Esposito in the finals and that is the only reason the Habs won that series.
I think that Ken Dryden was a somewhat overrated goalie who had the luxury of playing on some powerhouse teams.
On the other side of the coin, Tony Esposito was a guy who IMO, played too long and should have retired earlier than he did. I saw him play at the end of his career and he was really slow.
The Habs would have had all of the success that they had in the seventies and probably even a bit more if they'd had Tony in the nets instead of Dryden.
Yea.... What about Hasek?
Drafted in 1984 didnt come to the NHL until 6 years later and just retired in 2008. What if Hasek played on the Pens, Blues and Kings over his career? He played on a good Hawks team, a good Sens team and the Wings.
Esposito might have been a better goalie had he played his career with the Habs. I highly doubt Dryden would have his W-L record he does if he played with the Hawks.
The Hawks were a good team in parts of the 70's but the Habs were great and where does poor Rogie land and how did his career end up?
I wonder what would happen if Dryden was traded to LA instead of Rogie?
Dryden was a tall goalie who didnt have to do much because he had a powerhouse. When he did make saves he was "rebound man." IMO, Dryden looks a lot better on paper then he did on the ice.
Albeit I have only seen him play 10-12 times on vintage tape but he reminded me of a Sean Burke but only less.
In 1971 Chicago was pretty clearly the better team. Dryden outplayed Esposito in the finals and that is the only reason the Habs won that series.
I agree but sometimes I think Dryden's whole reputation was based on 71. He was good after that but was never the difference. Poor Tony was pathetic in that final game in 71 & it really hurts his legacy.
I agree but sometimes I think Dryden's whole reputation was based on 71. He was good after that but was never the difference. Poor Tony was pathetic in that final game in 71 & it really hurts his legacy.
Though Tony O had that horrible goal in game 7, he actually had better numbers for the playoffs that year than Dryden and beat a tremendous Rangers team in the semi-finals.
I agree but sometimes I think Dryden's whole reputation was based on 71. He was good after that but was never the difference. Poor Tony was pathetic in that final game in 71 & it really hurts his legacy.
People always say the Habs could have put anyone in net and they would have still won. Well, as soon as Dryden was gone, even though the Habs still had alot of talent, the Habs were a pathetic playoff team in 1974 and then 1980 onwards until Roy showed up. Dryden was as important to their success as anybody. He was the perfect goalie for the type of team they had.
Last edited by Psycho Papa Joe: 10-07-2008 at 06:54 PM.
People always say the Habs could have put anyone in net and they would have still won. Well, as soon as Dryden was gone, even though the Habs still had alot of talent, the Habs were a pathetic playoff team in 74 and 80 onwards until Roy showed up. Dryden was as important to their success as anybody. He was the perfect goalie for the type of team they had.
For all those you denegrate Dryden's skill level or importance to the Canadiens, one has to only look at the 1980 to 1983 playoffs to see how important he was to that team. It tends to be forgotten that in those year's the Habs were still aregular season power only to be routinely beaten in the playoffs by a hot goaltender who clearly outplayed his Montreal counterparts, think Meloche in 1980 for the North Stars, Moog in 1981 for the Oilers, and Sauve for the Sabres in 1983.
As for Tony O, undoubtedly a great goalie in his own right, I would argue that Dryden outplayed him twice in the finals (1971 & 1973), and especially in 1971 when Chicago probably had the superior team, in 1973 neither one played fantastically IMO.
With that being said, to me one of the most defining points to me for a goaltender is playoff performance, and in some ways Tony was sometimes found to be lacking, an area in which Dryden excelled.
Drafted in 1984 didnt come to the NHL until 6 years later and just retired in 2008. What if Hasek played on the Pens, Blues and Kings over his career? He played on a good Hawks team, a good Sens team and the Wings.
Esposito might have been a better goalie had he played his career with the Habs. I highly doubt Dryden would have his W-L record he does if he played with the Hawks.
The Hawks were a good team in parts of the 70's but the Habs were great and where does poor Rogie land and how did his career end up?
I wonder what would happen if Dryden was traded to LA instead of Rogie?
Dryden was a tall goalie who didnt have to do much because he had a powerhouse. When he did make saves he was "rebound man." IMO, Dryden looks a lot better on paper then he did on the ice.
Albeit I have only seen him play 10-12 times on vintage tape but he reminded me of a Sean Burke but only less.
The fact is that Dryden did win 6 cups in his time with the team. I'd say that for 3 of them , 76,77,78, you could argue that Mtl was easily the superior team. You could argue that he didn't have a great 79 playoff.
It's easy to denigrate a player because of th eteam around him, it's one of the more common arguemnets here, but Mtl made a conscious decison when evaluating their goalie talent that Dryden was the guy who could win.
I'd say that Tony Esposito would have a few rings if he'd have remained a Hab, I'd guess that Rogie would have a few more, but Dryden won. Keep in mind that during much of the 70's team run, their biggest problem was motivation. I'm not being cocky as a Hab fan, I'm going by what the players have said.
They'd often start slowly, give up chances, sleep walk thru a period or 2 until they woke up. Dryden kept them in it until they started playing.
I remember reading Bobby Clarke quotes after they beat Montreal one night. The Flyers were insulted and fired up because Mtl played Michel Larocque against them.
Gerry Cheevers was a great goalie on a great Bruins team. As a kid, I argued that Cheevers was irrelevant because of Orr and co., but how many did the B's win without Cheevers ?
It's too easy to discount great players, esp. goalies because of their teams. Keep in mind that when Pollock made his choice between the 3, Dryden wasn't the asiest route to take. He clearly had career asoirations outside of hockey, wasn't simply glad to be there and wouldn't sign the 1st piece of paper put in front of him.
They felt strongly that he was the guy and he never gave them reason to doubt it. Maybe they did in 74 when he stayed home, but that's a different story.
It's a bit before my time, but just looking at their ages, Esposito was already 25 when he made his rookie debut (2 years older than Vachon and 4 years older than Dryden). Teams don't generally bet their future on 25 year old rookies.
Vachon had played well in the regular season and was excellent in the playoffs that year. It wasn't until Dryden's stunning playoff performance that Vachon lost his job.
IF Esposito had stayed with Montreal, then it's tough to say, but Esposito's record in the playoffs is not encouraging. Aside from his excellent performance in 70-71, his playoff record is spotty at best, and the Blackhawks were a pretty good team in the early-mid 70s.
Would Dryden be as successful elsewhere? Personally, I don't think so (unless it was Boston or Philadelphia). He tended to give up a lot of rebounds and wasn't terribly mobile. With Montreal's defensive corp, this wasn't a big problem (as Phil Esposito would attest to), since Dryden was usually very reliable on the first shot.
Bowman liked Dryden precisely because he was reliable and consistent...not qualities that Esposito was noted for. IMO, Dryden was the type of goalie that wouldn't lose games, but he wasn't going to steal many either. Esposito could steal games, but he could lose them for you too. I just don't think that Esposito's somewhat erratic play would sit well in Montreal for very long even if he had taken Vachon's job.
Dryden needed to have good D to play well, but he was also the type of goalie that a good team needs to be a great team.
That's one of the best responses I think I ever read...good job!
At 26, and 2 years old then Rogie, with Dryden in the system, Pollock would try and protect a vet like Gump and keep a good youngster like Vachon.
This is going back, but I remember seeing Dryden play in 70-71 for the Voyageurs who I believe were in Mtl that year. Not positive, it could have been just a promotional game in MTl, but I remember Dryden playing one night. I can't say I remember the game other than thinking he looked good.
I don't remember an issue around the team that year demanding a goalie change, but I remember that it wasn't a happy year as it was clear that the CH weren't the premier team in the league. Boston was th eflavour that year, the team everyone wanted to see.
I'd be curious as to whether Pollock had a master plan involving Dryden, or in desperation, figured Rogie's having a tough time, we have to try something. Sometimes things just work out and you go with them.
This is going back, but I remember seeing Dryden play in 70-71 for the Voyageurs who I believe were in Mtl that year. Not positive, it could have been just a promotional game in MTl, but I remember Dryden playing one night. I can't say I remember the game other than thinking he looked good.
I don't remember an issue around the team that year demanding a goalie change, but I remember that it wasn't a happy year as it was clear that the CH weren't the premier team in the league. Boston was th eflavour that year, the team everyone wanted to see.
I'd be curious as to whether Pollock had a master plan involving Dryden, or in desperation, figured Rogie's having a tough time, we have to try something. Sometimes things just work out and you go with them.
Last year when Sam Pollock passed away, Ken Dryden wrote an excellent piece on him that appeared in Les Canadiens (the team magazine devoted to the Habs). In that article Dryden revealed that in fact he had never been far from Pollock's thoughts, going back to the late 1960's.
In 1970-71 the Canadiens had a good year, but after missing the playoffs the year before, they were still a little skittish about their team, especially the unpredicatbility of their goaltending, whether it be Vachon or Phil Myre who also saw action that year. That year the Voyageurs played in Montreal, so Pollock was well aware of Dryden's capabilities.
If I recall correctly, the possibility of facing Boston in the first round was pretty much set with a couple of weeks to go in the season. By bringing Dryden up for a couple of games, the Habs were able to judge where he was at in his development.
When he went 6-0 to close the seaon, I think Pollock, McNeil etc .. decided to start him simply because the team had had very little success against the Bruins that season. Of course, the Bruins hadn't seen much of Dryden, so there was a surprise factor involved as well. As huge underdog's the thinking was probably that worst case scenerio we can always bring Vachon back in.
Last year when Sam Pollock passed away, Ken Dryden wrote an excellent piece on him that appeared in Les Canadiens (the team magazine devoted to the Habs). In that article Dryden revealed that in fact he had never been far from Pollock's thoughts, going back to the late 1960's.
In 1970-71 the Canadiens had a good year, but after missing the playoffs the year before, they were still a little skittish about their team, especially the unpredicatbility of their goaltending, whether it be Vachon or Phil Myre who also saw action that year. That year the Voyageurs played in Montreal, so Pollock was well aware of Dryden's capabilities.
If I recall correctly, the possibility of facing Boston in the first round was pretty much set with a couple of weeks to go in the season. By bringing Dryden up for a couple of games, the Habs were able to judge where he was at in his development.
When he went 6-0 to close the seaon, I think Pollock, McNeil etc .. decided to start him simply because the team had had very little success against the Bruins that season. Of course, the Bruins hadn't seen much of Dryden, so there was a surprise factor involved as well. As huge underdog's the thinking was probably that worst case scenerio we can always bring Vachon back in.
Of course, we all know how that turned out.
Makes perfect sense. I was trying to remember the mood of the fans that year, it was coming off the shock of missing the playoffs, the realization that Boston just had more than they did. I think that there was a feeling that 71 wasn't their year, but I don't recall any anti Vachon sentiment, maybe moreso the team needed a boost.
Drafted in 1984 didnt come to the NHL until 6 years later and just retired in 2008. What if Hasek played on the Pens, Blues and Kings over his career? He played on a good Hawks team, a good Sens team and the Wings.
His years in Buffalo count for nothing? His greatest individual achievements were during his tenure as a Sabre. He was Sabres property on loan at Nagano. The greatest equalizer is All World goaltending. No better example is '99, when he backstopped Michael Peca, Miro Satan, Alexei Zhitnik and the Rochester Amerks to the Finals. Plenty of other superior teams went home early that spring.
Getting back to the discussion at hand...
Esposito and Vachon stood behind some very mediocre clubs during the mid to late 70's, and performed extremely well. That's why the speculation about "what if" is very reasonable, in comparison to Dryden's accomplishments. Both could've easily won multiple Cups with those clubs. Working behind Guy Lapointe, Serge Savard and Larry Robinson does make life a little stressful, doesn't it? They had so much firepower up front, that they could afford to overcome lapses and cheap goals.
