HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The WE DON'T NEED AN IMPACT FORWARD THREAD!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
10-19-2008, 12:24 PM
  #26
emb24*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,238
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
It blows MY mind how people make these trades without looking at cap space!

You would have to move more than Higgins for Gabby folks...and not just a prospect! A front line player!!!!!!


Three other major points you failed to make.

1. Gaborik has a history of injuries.
2. He has already REJECTED a 7 million plus offer over a number of years...even if Montreal traded for him, you'd have to loose 2 good 30 plus scorers to keep 1 often injured 50 goal scorer!
3. People don't give this much thought, but its important....HIGGINS WANTS to be here...potential captain material and his off ice commitment to keep in shape and train is right the with Komo... this should INCREASE his career longevity.


Why would you trade a guy who is just STARTING to score 27 plus last year and he hasn't reached his potential yet... for a potential 50 goal scorer for ONE YEAR who you probably have no chance of resigning.

Would I try for Gaborik if he's truly on the market...of course I would; knowing its a rental, so the payment would be for that not a member of our core team who is just beginning to realize his potential. A combo of 2nd tier prospects, picks and any 3rd 4th line player that Minny would want would be my best offer, any I'm sure other teams in the league would top that based on short sighted thinking.


Thank God Gainey is building a winner for the long haul and is not short sighted.

IN 2-3 years your forwards could start with a BASE of YOUNGSTERS like this.

A.Kots
S. Kots
Higgins
Lats
MaxPac
Maxwell

with money to sign vets after koivu and kovy are no longer with the team.

As other posters mentioned...we need one more puck moving Dman... because if Markov goes down, who is moving the puck to our forward AND manning the point on the PP.

That is our ONLY need right now.
great post, too bad the gaggle of fantasy league GM's don't listen

emb24* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:26 PM
  #27
HamrlikTheStud*
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,810
vCash: 500
What people don't understand is that we don't have to pt all our eggs on the same basket... This year is not the last year we can win the cup.

We must focus on signing Tanguay, Koivu, Kovalev and Komisarek as fast as possible, and try to contend for several years, like the red Wings.

When is the last time Detroit traded away players on their core for a quick fix? Sure they signed a couple of great UFAs, but swapping a couple of core players for a star player doesn't make sense...

After seeing how Gorges is playing this year (I'm one of those who think he plays bad out there...), the priority is to acquire another top-4 D-Man.

HamrlikTheStud* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:31 PM
  #28
Pascal
Registered User
 
Pascal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,467
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigM1ke View Post

Gaborik > Higgins. Everyone should know that!
That's the wrong way to see it imo because we'll give up more than Higgins. If the rumors are true then it's Higgins/McDonagh and that is like giving up Komi/Higgins for a 1 yr rental or a guy that will bust our salary structure this summer by re-signing..

Pascal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:37 PM
  #29
Sined
The AndroidBugler!
 
Sined's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,573
vCash: 500
Even considering the centennial year, a better chance of contending now vs a good chance of contending for years to come. I'd much rather have longevity.

Sined is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:45 PM
  #30
Habskrieg
Registered User
 
Habskrieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Armenia
Posts: 3,611
vCash: 500
I agree, our offensive lines so far have proven to be very good.
Another D would be nice.

Habskrieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:46 PM
  #31
1UP
Registered User
 
1UP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Québec
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,971
vCash: 500
MTL cap space is 1.122

Higgins is worth 1.7m in cap space.

Gaborik is 6.333m in cap space (makes 7.5m this year).

So, if we trade Higgins/Prospect/1st like said by some "sources" for Gaborik, we end up 3.413 millions over the cap.

So, we gotta add something at about 3.5m.

Doesn't make much sense to trade Higgins + 3.5m worth of players in a tight knit team for a guy that is often injured and won't play more than a year here.

1UP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:51 PM
  #32
MTL-rules
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 6,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
This is such a stupid post..... there are no Joe Juneaus on the roster right now... we have outstanding depth.

Bringing in a Gaborik with a huge contract will deplete that depth.... you won't be able to put together a third line like we have right now.... and you can welcome back cheap filler players in the Joe Juneau mold again.

Depth > a 50 goal superstar.... especially when that star is often injured.
Why this Juneau bashing?

He did an honest job while playing here, he was used in every possible situations and was far from the worst player on that roster...

And finally Juneau has and will still have a much better career than most of our young players and prospects.

...Plus, he's a legit gentleman and humanitarian, which you don't find often in the NHL or any other professional sport.

As for the thread title... probably the dumbest ever.. sorry, but who doesn't want an impact forward? Did Pittsburg needed another one last year? No. Did the Red Wings also?

...Come on, I would love to have that type of player... do we need him now? No But, I still would love to have Gaborik on the roster... but there are other variables in play...

MTL-rules is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:53 PM
  #33
Habskrieg
Registered User
 
Habskrieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Armenia
Posts: 3,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1UP View Post
MTL cap space is 1.122

Higgins is worth 1.7m in cap space.

Gaborik is 6.333m in cap space (makes 7.5m this year).

So, if we trade Higgins/Prospect/1st like said by some "sources" for Gaborik, we end up 3.413 millions over the cap.

So, we gotta add something at about 3.5m.

Doesn't make much sense to trade Higgins + 3.5m worth of players in a tight knit team for a guy that is often injured and won't play more than a year here.
Yea it doesn't, pretty sure BG knows that. Pretty sure media, rumormongers and fantasy gms don't.

Habskrieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:53 PM
  #34
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Injuries can happen to any player. AK was in the shape of his life before last night...etc.

An injury prone player is a player with a set weakness that will make him miss some games. As far as I know Gaborik is in top shape and there is no physical limitation to his performance. There is no hatcher-back/knee, forsberg-foot, primeau-concussion, Dipietro-Hip/knee, Havlat shoulders, with Gaborik.

@Beaker: Talk about a statement!

"Bringing in a Gaborik with a huge contract will deplete that depth...."

Would you say Detroit as no depth too? Yet they are paying Lidstrom, Datsyuk and soon Zetterberg to "huge" contracts. Depth as more to do with the ability of the GM/scouting staff to draft, develop well and manage assets effectively, with great consistency. Sure it might bring some hard choices, but you can't say categorically this will be the case.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 12:55 PM
  #35
Magic33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: MTL
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,563
vCash: 500
All cap issues aside, when you can add a player like Gaborik, a game changer, dangerous every time hes on the ice, it can only be good for your team.

Until the day we finish 82-0-0, we can always improve our team. We're 4-0-1, we're not 5-0-0, therefore we can improve. Thats just my opinion, 82-0 is probably impossible, but there is no reason why our goal shouldn't be to win 82 games.

Magic33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:03 PM
  #36
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
The "short term" part of this trade is what makes me say "No!".
Gaborik might be a potential 50 goal scorer but he's also a potential 50 games a year player. Higgins is more to the Habs than goals (which we already score plenty of). He's leadership, he's great 2-way presence, he's a good penalty killer, he's media friendly, he's a part of the team's chemistry and, probably more important than anything else, he's an RFA that will more than likely be willing to sign a long term, cap-friendly deal at season's end.
Right, let's not get superior assets to win the silver shining cup when our assets are accross the board of high value to others teams.

Thinking in conditional terms can go either way. Higgins is 25, Gaborik is 26. Chris Higgins will never be a top 10 player in this league. That's what Gaborik is today, don't let Minnesota's defensive system stats deflation fools you.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:05 PM
  #37
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Injuries can happen to any player. AK was in the shape of his life before last night...etc.

An injury prone player is a player with a set weakness that will make him miss some games. As far as I know Gaborik is in top shape and there is no physical limitation to his performance. There is no hatcher-back/knee, forsberg-foot, primeau-concussion, Dipietro-Hip/knee, Havlat shoulders, with Gaborik.

@Beaker: Talk about a statement!

"Bringing in a Gaborik with a huge contract will deplete that depth...."

Would you say Detroit as no depth too? Yet they are paying Lidstrom, Datsyuk and soon Zetterberg to "huge" contracts. Depth as more to do with the ability of the GM/scouting staff to draft, develop well and manage assets effectively, with great consistency. Sure it might bring some hard choices, but you can't say categorically this will be the case.
Big difference.... Detroit got Hossa on a one year deal as a rental through UFA without giving up anything..... we are trading Assets for Gaborik... he would either be a rental for us... or he resigns longterm for 8m + per year and we lose kovy and tanguay too.

Detroit only signed Hossa for one year cause they know they have to pay Zetterberg after this year... they didn't want to lose him.

Its not just Higgins.... its Higgins + more assets in any trade.... then there is the UFA losses...


Last edited by Beakermania*: 10-19-2008 at 01:11 PM.
Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:09 PM
  #38
Habskrieg
Registered User
 
Habskrieg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Armenia
Posts: 3,611
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic33 View Post
All cap issues aside, when you can add a player like Gaborik, a game changer, dangerous every time hes on the ice, it can only be good for your team.

Until the day we finish 82-0-0, we can always improve our team. We're 4-0-1, we're not 5-0-0, therefore we can improve. Thats just my opinion, 82-0 is probably impossible, but there is no reason why our goal shouldn't be to win 82 games.
While I see what you mean about improvement. I do find Gaborik to be a very good player. However I don't think he's worth giving away around 2 players, or a core player (payed for 5M +) just to get another impact player who will be asking for even more after, which means losing again more players. Basically we'd be letting go on a lot for one player when we can clearly see that the players we have are sufficient enough to win games. In addition, if one of our offensive players gets injured, which I hope not, we can still bring in one of our young talents to play and try out. This could give a better insight on our future lines.
Our D is very solid, but if one of them gets injured, we lose a lot. We need another D more.

Habskrieg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:10 PM
  #39
znk
Registered User
 
znk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,122
vCash: 500
What would the Impact want in return anyway?

znk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:19 PM
  #40
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyhabsfan View Post
It blows MY mind how people make these trades without looking at cap space!

You would have to move more than Higgins for Gabby folks...and not just a prospect! A front line player!!!!!!


Three other major points you failed to make.

1. Gaborik has a history of injuries.
2. He has already REJECTED a 7 million plus offer over a number of years...even if Montreal traded for him, you'd have to loose 2 good 30 plus scorers to keep 1 often injured 50 goal scorer!
3. People don't give this much thought, but its important....HIGGINS WANTS to be here...potential captain material and his off ice commitment to keep in shape and train is right the with Komo... this should INCREASE his career longevity.


Why would you trade a guy who is just STARTING to score 27 plus last year and he hasn't reached his potential yet... for a potential 50 goal scorer for ONE YEAR who you probably have no chance of resigning.

Would I try for Gaborik if he's truly on the market...of course I would; knowing its a rental, so the payment would be for that not a member of our core team who is just beginning to realize his potential. A combo of 2nd tier prospects, picks and any 3rd 4th line player that Minny would want would be my best offer, any I'm sure other teams in the league would top that based on short sighted thinking.
1) All players have an history of injury, hell why did we sign Maxwell, Koivu?
2) Nobody is talking about giving Maxpac and Higgins. The injuries assumptions as just that, assumptions.
3) Who says Gainey wants to trade any of his players. Obviously nearly everyone wants to be here this year. Trading Higgins is just the result of "giving something to get something", nothing else.

Getting Gaborik and re-signing him tremendously improves our team long-term. To get guys like him you have to take some risks.

Keep your "Fantasy GM" branding for yourself, cleary I don't see why this can be used freely on a board moderating insults.We are all fantasy GMs, get real.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:32 PM
  #41
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Okay i changed the title... everyone wants an impact forward... if we could get one ala hossa without giving anything up who would say no.

Scenario: Mats Sundin calls Gainey tomorrow... hey Bob... I want to play in Montreal this year... I'm rich enough, how does 1year at 1million sound to you?? Would you turn that down?? I wouldn't.

but I don't think we need a Gaborik player or someone like that... I think we have other bigger needs, ie defence. And i think looking at what we have to give up to get Gaborik both now and in the future... I don't want to do that.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:34 PM
  #42
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Big difference.... Detroit got Hossa on a one year deal as a rental through UFA without giving up anything..... we are trading Assets for Gaborik... he would either be a rental for us... or he resigns longterm for 8m + per year and we lose kovy and tanguay too.

Detroit only signed Hossa for one year cause they know they have to pay Zetterberg after this year... they didn't want to lose him.

Its not just Higgins.... its Higgins + more assets in any trade.... then there is the UFA losses...
Point in case I didn't talk about Hossa. Detroit have great depth without Hossa and some "huge" contracts.

By my calculations we would loose either of Tanguay or Kovy, not both. Remember that Begin, Kostopoulos and Bouillon(Chipchura, D'Agostini, PK/Carle/Valentenko/Emelin etc) can be replaced by low cost assets. *I have komo@5m (Lang's cap) I have Maxpac playing in the remaining top 9 spot next year.That's why I think this trade would be the "effective" replacement of Kovy past this year as our goto forward.

Tanguay - Koivu - Gaborik
AK - Plek - SK
Maxpac - Chipchura/Maxwell - Lats
Laraque - Lapierre - D'agostini

For a team after a cup run there is still a lot of depth...(for years to come...)

A big season by Latendresse is the possible thing that can mess up the budget plans.

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:37 PM
  #43
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
Point in case I didn't talk about Hossa. Detroit have great depth without Hossa and some "huge" contracts.

By my calculations we would loose either of Tanguay or Kovy, not both. Remember that Begin, Kostopoulos and Bouillon(Chipchura, D'Agostini, PK/Carle/Valentenko/Emelin etc) can be replaced by low cost assets. *I have komo@5m (Lang's cap) I have Maxpac playing in the remaining top 9 spot next year.That's why I think this trade would be the "effective" replacement of Kovy past this year as our goto forward.

Tanguay - Koivu - Gaborik
AK - Plek - SK
Maxpac - Chipchura/Maxwell - Lats
Laraque - Lapierre - D'agostini

For a team after a cup run there is still a lot of depth...(for years to come...)

A big season by Latendresse is the possible thing that can mess up the budget plans.
What do you have Tanguay, Pleks, Koivu, Gaborik signing for....

By my calculations the cap hit for Kovy + Tanguay needs to be 11-12m next year for us to keep both....

With Gaborik at 8million or more ; i don't see either of them wanting to sign for less than four.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:41 PM
  #44
Cyrrus147
Registered User
 
Cyrrus147's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,897
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Okay i changed the title... everyone wants an impact forward... if we could get one ala hossa without giving anything up who would say no.

Scenario: Mats Sundin calls Gainey tomorrow... hey Bob... I want to play in Montreal this year... I'm rich enough, how does 1year at 1million sound to you?? Would you turn that down?? I wouldn't.

but I don't think we need a Gaborik player or someone like that... I think we have other bigger needs, ie defence. And i think looking at what we have to give up to get Gaborik both now and in the future... I don't want to do that.
The NHLPA would never allow a star player like Sundin to sign for 1 million.

Cyrrus147 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:47 PM
  #45
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
The NHLPA would never allow a star player like Sundin to sign for 1 million.
I never said it was a realistic scenario.... and legally there is nothing they could do to stop him.

They could pressure him not to take a deal... but legally he has the right to sign any contract he wants to; as long as it is allowed under the CBA.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:51 PM
  #46
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
What do you have Tanguay, Pleks, Koivu, Gaborik signing for....

By my calculations the cap hit for Kovy + Tanguay needs to be 11-12m next year for us to keep both....

With Gaborik at 8million or more ; i don't see either of them wanting to sign for less than four.
I agree, that's why I am saying Kovy will walk if we ever sign Gaborik. (What I would be hopping for in a perfect world is Gainey making the trade with a deal already in place for Gaborik.)

Just to be clear, I don't see Koivu getting a raise.
Neither do I see a big raise for Tanguay.
Pleks, depending on this season, anywhere from 3.5 to 5m.
Same for Komo.
(Same for Higgins if we keep him)

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:51 PM
  #47
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Magic33 View Post
All cap issues aside, when you can add a player like Gaborik, a game changer, dangerous every time hes on the ice, it can only be good for your team.

Until the day we finish 82-0-0, we can always improve our team. We're 4-0-1, we're not 5-0-0, therefore we can improve. Thats just my opinion, 82-0 is probably impossible, but there is no reason why our goal shouldn't be to win 82 games.
82-0??? Probably Impossible??? A goal to win 82 games??? With all due respect, please stop talking like Ottawa fans this time last year, when after 12-13 games, they were comparing themselves to the 76-77 Habs with only 8 losses. There isn't one coach or GM who thinks his team should go 82-0 for a season...

BLONG7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:51 PM
  #48
SOLR
Registered User
 
SOLR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Toronto / North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,794
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
The NHLPA would never allow a star player like Sundin to sign for 1 million.
Like they didn't allow Kariya and Selanne in Colorado?

SOLR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:53 PM
  #49
BLONG7
Registered User
 
BLONG7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 12,734
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyrrus147 View Post
The NHLPA would never allow a star player like Sundin to sign for 1 million.
They wouldn't like it, but an UFA at 37 years of age can do what he wants with only a year or two left in his career...and the PA would not be able to anything about it...

BLONG7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
10-19-2008, 01:54 PM
  #50
Beakermania*
 
Beakermania*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Kingston or Hamilton
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,964
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOLR View Post
I agree, that's why I am saying Kovy will walk if we ever sign Gaborik. (What I would be hopping for in a perfect world is Gainey making the trade with a deal already in place for Gaborik.)

Just to be clear, I don't see Koivu getting a raise.
Neither do I see a big raise for Tanguay.
Pleks, depending on this season, anywhere from 3.5 to 5m.
Same for Komo.
(Same for Higgins if we keep him)
Okay... fair enough.... are you still carrying 23 men on your roster... you can save some money on bouillion/dandenault etc... but they still have to be replaced by guys at around 750k-1million.

Beakermania* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:02 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.