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Old
10-19-2008, 09:38 AM
  #26
FerrisRox
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
That's weird. A Phoenix player took a run at our 1st line LW tonight, even though we have a tough guy in the lineup.

I thought that wasn't supposed to ever happen?

Oh wait, wasn't Derek Boogaard unable to prevent the injury to Mikko Koivu last year?

Could Gino Odjick prevent the head shot to Richard Zednik?


Were you even paying attention to the game? Surely you must have noticed that after Phoenix's tough guy took a few Georges Laraques knuckles to his face, the entire Coytoes roster took their phyiscal game down a notch or two.

Previously, with a 4-0 or 4-1 lead, teams would just run the Canadiens throughout the third period trying to get the Bruins favorite - a moral victory, and with the hopes of intimidating a roster filled with finesse players into coughing up the puck, curling away in the corner or making panic passes to avoid getting pasted. Laraque gave every single one of those guys an extra second or two with the puck and the ability to use their speed to get to the puck and make a play without worrying about a guy taking liberties. When Laraque is on the bench, every Canadien has a few extra inches and a few extra pounds.

If you want to say "I thought cheapshots weren't supposed to happen" in a smarmy, saracastic, condescending way, be my guest, but it only makes you look silly, particularly in light of last nights events, when, after Georges made Phoenix answer for their actions, the Coyotes basically shut it down for the night.

Even Gretzky himself commented on Laraque handling things on the ice and effect it had on the game. I'm pretty sure I'll take his word over yours.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-19-2008 at 05:19 PM.
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Old
10-19-2008, 09:47 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Were you even paying attention to the game? Surely you must have noticed that after Phoenix's tough guy took a few Georges Laraques knuckles to his face, the entire Coytoes roster took their phyiscal game down a notch or two.

Previously, with a 4-0 or 4-1 lead, teams would just run the Canadiens throughout the third period trying to get the Bruins favorite - a moral victory, and with the hopes of intimidating a roster filled with finesse players into coughing up the puck, curling away in the corner or making panic passes to avoid getting pasted. Laraque gave every single one of those guys an extra second or two with the puck and the ability to use their speed to get to the puck and make a play without worrying about a guy taking liberties. When Laraque is on the bench, every Canadien has a few extra inches and a few extra pounds.

If you want to say "I thought cheapshots weren't supposed to happen" in a smarmy, saracastic, condescending way, be my guest, but it only makes you look silly, particularly in light of last nights events, when, after Georges made Phoenix answer for their actions, the Coyotes basically shut it down for the night.

Even Gretzky himself commented on Laraque handling things on the ice and effect it had on the game. I'm pretty sure I'll take his word over yours.
Please read the OP and my response carefully.

The OP said that Laraque was PREVENTING cheap shots.

Clearly, Laraque (and others) can RESPOND to them, but really, cheap hits can't be prevented unless the league cracks down. It's not because Fedoruk lost a decision without getting hurt that the many others on the Coyotes (whom Georges has said he would not touch) will change the way they hit.

I'm having a very hard time with the mixed messages I got from last night's observers. Many are saying that Sauer's hit was clean, but that Georges Laraque was right to fight Fedoruk to somehow "counter" it.

I don't agree with either view.

I think the hit was against the rules. It should have been punished by the referees and perhaps with a 1-3 game suspension as well, and that would be a much cleaner message to the Coyotes than having a vigilante run around avenging so-called clean hits.

I like having Big Georges around so that Komisarek can stop fighting the heavyweights of the other teams. He should also have a better fight-win ratio than tom Kostopoulos. If he can do these jobs without getting too many penalties and also help in the cycling game the 4th line plays, then he will be a fine addition to this team.

But it is delusional to think that his mere presence will prevent dangerous hits. As I said, we had Gino Odjick but how did that help Richard Zednik avoid Kyle McLaren's forearm?


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-19-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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10-19-2008, 10:28 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post

Were you even paying attention to the game? Surely you must have noticed that after Phoenix's tough guy took a few Georges Laraques knuckles to his face, the entire Coytoes roster took their phyiscal game down a notch or two.

Previously, with a 4-0 or 4-1 lead, teams would just run the Canadiens throughout the third period trying to get the Bruins favorite - a moral victory, and with the hopes of intimidating a roster filled with finesse players into coughing up the puck, curling away in the corner or making panic passes to avoid getting pasted. Laraque gave every single one of those guys an extra second or two with the puck and the ability to use their speed to get to the puck and make a play without worrying about a guy taking liberties. When Laraque is on the bench, every Canadien has a few extra inches and a few extra pounds.

If you want to say "I thought cheapshots weren't supposed to happen" in a smarmy, saracastic, condescending way, be my guest, but it only makes you look silly, particularly in light of last nights events, when, after Georges made Phoenix answer for their actions, the Coyotes basically shut it down for the night.

Even Gretzky himself commented on Laraque handling things on the ice and effect it had on the game. I'm pretty sure I'll take his word over yours.
+1000


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-19-2008 at 05:20 PM.
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Old
10-19-2008, 10:32 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Georges will only fight other heavyweights, and honestly while he did well against Fedoruk, he didn't destroy the guy or anything. I see absolutely no reason why the Phoenix players that are safe from Big Georges would somehow be deterred from hitting a Hab player uncleanly. Do you really think it's FEDORUK who would tell them not to???

Enforcers do not prevent cheap shots. What must be done to prevent (or at least reduce) injury-causing hits is clear communication from the league to create greater awareness among the players of the dangerous types of situations, followed up by greater certainty that committing a foul that is clearly defined as dangerous will be punished severely. That means major penalties, match penalties, or long suspensions.
BGL invited Sauer to a fight, and he would have fought him if Sauer had dropped the gloves. What Laraque meant was that he's not going to just jump on a guy and pound him... As to the Phoenix players being safe from BGL, he sure seemed to be ready to drop with any customer he found, and the Phoenix players were skating away from him.

Cheap shots come from the easyness of playing another team physically. Once you know you can dish out and dominate the other team, there's a bigger chance that one player pushes the envelope and gives a dirty hit. (Almost) no player ever wants to take out another player, but it just happens that the hit is one step above and the other guy gets taken out. Enforcers like Laraque do take out the feeling from the opponent that you should hit recklessly over and over again the other team because when that happens he takes the focus of the physical play on himself.

Your suggestion about "clear communication" is useless. If there are still players that don't know you can cause severe injuries with just a normal bodycheck and much more with dirty hits, then they're hopeless dweebs. In the heat of the moment, violent acts are perpetrated regardless of "later" consequence. That's why you don't see lower violent crime rates in places where sentences are harsher; it doesn't matter on the play at hand. An enforcer like BGL can reduce the "heat" of the moment, as players won't ascend their physical game to a dangerous level. The perfect example of this was in last night's game, where the Coyotes were tame in the third period, instead of escalating their physical game to a dangerous level. At the same time, players that disappear from the Habs when the going gets physical didn't fade either.

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Old
10-19-2008, 10:34 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
Bob is smiling tonite.


Enough of guys running are players, George will not let that happen, gives the habs a chance to take care of business.


He plays it well, and makes teams respect the hab bench.

Can't wait for him to show Chris Neil, the same.

the only thing we lack to be a COMPLETE team on front without ANY fear.. is a Eric Cole.. I was listening to the late hours after the cal/edm game.. and Cole was asked if he ever dream to play in a canadian team before joining the Oilers.. he did that he alwasys liked the intensity the feeling when playing in montreal... saying always played great over here.. (oh man, would he look incredible in our team.. maybe we can swap cole for higgins instead? )

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10-19-2008, 10:53 AM
  #31
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Hmm..

I don't think this is the right way to hold your fist.. the thumb should go outside..

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10-19-2008, 10:56 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by sampollock View Post
Bob is smiling tonite.


Enough of guys running are players, George will not let that happen, gives the habs a chance to take care of business.


He plays it well, and makes teams respect the hab bench.

Can't wait for him to show Chris Neil, the same.
If only he could instill some of his fighting prowess into Kostopoulos.
Kosto has the heart of a champion but the balance of a clown on stilts.

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Old
10-19-2008, 10:57 AM
  #33
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Hmm..

I don't think this is the right way to hold your fist.. the thumb should go outside..
I think Georges knows it better...

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Old
10-19-2008, 10:57 AM
  #34
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You know what I liked about having Laraque in the lineup last night? We had someone who could send a message to the Yotes by fighting (and, no offense to Kostopolous, winning)... and his name wasn't Komisarek.

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10-19-2008, 11:01 AM
  #35
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Tanguay may or may not be on "the first line" but unfortunately he is NOT playing LW either way.

I do get your point, though, and we may soon be going back to calling Koivu's line the first line. It all depends on overall line production over a period of time.
Maybe not on paper, but Tanguay always seems to end up on the left side of the play, and Guillaume on the right. After 5 games, so far this is our #1 line. I'm a huge fan of the KPK line too, but Pleks has been rather invisible.. Although, and i've always said this.. He's very streaky, he'll go 5-10 games invisible and be on FIRE for 10-15. We'll see. Kovalev seems to doing good, but you can tell the other teams are still zeroing on him. A.Kost was looking very good.

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10-19-2008, 11:40 AM
  #36
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Exactly. The original post was delusional. Georges did not and can not "prevent" a high hit, especially not from a player that he could not fight against because of the "code of the heavyweights".

But he was useful in being the guy to do some of the fighting so that BOTH Komi and Kosto didn't have to, Komisarek being the top priority to spare.
This seems obvious to me, not sure why it's being debated.

GL and his talents do a couple things well. As was seen last night, it creates a distraction for the other team *AFTER* a hard hit is delivered. Players may see retribution coming, but they don't know where or when it will be delivered. Head-on-swivel play develops. Laraques line itself was given some room to move around and had some significant chances themselves partly because their presence was being heeded. The second thing GL brings is energy generation, needed to counter the sag that goes through the bench and crowd when a damaging hit is delivered.

We'll never know what a Laraqueless team would have done last night, but the chances of that hit becoming a game turning point was negated by Laraque's distracting qualities.

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10-19-2008, 11:40 AM
  #37
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What a pointless post. There are exceptions to every rule. And of course there are posters on here who are going to point it out on here.

So Crosby misses an open net once in awhile too. Whats your point? He can't score?

right,

i was stating that geo will help in this area where he can,

but did not need a smart answer like above.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
Please read the OP and my response carefully.

The OP said that Laraque was PREVENTING cheap shots.

Clearly, Laraque (and others) can RESPOND to them, but really, cheap hits can't be prevented unless the league cracks down. It's not because Fedoruk lost a decision without getting hurt that the many others on the Coyotes (whom Georges has said he would not touch) will change the way they hit.

I'm having a very hard time with the mixed messages I got from last night's observers. Many are saying that Sauer's hit was clean, but that Georges Laraque was right to fight Fedoruk to somehow "counter" it.

I don't agree with either view.

I think the hit was against the rules. It should have been punished by the referees and perhaps with a 1-3 game suspension as well, and that would be a much cleaner message to the Coyotes than having a vigilante run around avenging so-called clean hits.

I like having Big Georges around so that Komisarek can stop fighting the heavyweights of the other teams. He should also have a better fight-win ratio than tom Kostopoulos. If he can do these jobs without getting too many penalties and also help in the cycling game the 4th line plays, then he will be a fine addition to this team.

But it is delusional to think that his mere presence will prevent dangerous hits. As I said, we had Gino Odjick but how did that help Richard Zednik avoid Kyle McLaren's forearm?


of course if WON'T prevent hits, but he settled it down , as many posters here said, which is somethimg we could not do before.......


trust me, if you were in a setting like the habs were last nite, you would relish having geo on the bench.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-19-2008 at 05:26 PM.
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Old
10-19-2008, 12:27 PM
  #38
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of course if WON'T prevent hits, but he settled it down , as many posters here said, which is somethimg we could not do before.......


trust me, if you were in a setting like the habs were last nite, you would relish having geo on the bench.
I don't disagree with having Georges on the team, in fact I'm in favour of it. But it is delusional to think that having a goon prevents cheap shots. It's been proven not to.

Let me turn this object around for a bit so we can get a better look at it.

First, now that we have BGL on "our side", does that mean that we will be going out looking for cheap shots to hand out? Assuming we've got the baddest guy in the league, does that make it good hockey to headhunt?

Second, what happens when another team has a "badder" guy than you do? Does that suddenly change the game?

I say no. In the long run, it's the SUSPENSIONS to players, such as what happened to the Flyers last year, that tame the guys down. Well, suspensions and also major penalties.

Until the league subtly threatened the Flyers last year, they were running amok. But did they have the toughest enforcer on their team? No. BGL was in Pittsburgh.

One last thing. Someone mentioned that jurisdictions with the harshest sentences do not always have low crime rates. True. But what matters is the PROBABILITY of a long sentence. First, the perp has to be caught, then he has to convicted, and THEN he gets sentenced. In hockey, the problem is the same as in some of the high crime areas: there is not enough probability of paying the price. Many dangerous hits are not even penalized. Increase the consistency of the calls on ice and/or off-ice and the message will slowly but surely continue to get through more and more.

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10-19-2008, 01:21 PM
  #39
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What I don't get is how Sauer (6'4" 225) says he's not in Laraque's (6'3 243-253 depending where you look) league, but it's alright for him to fight Kosto (6' 200)

Kosto had a 4 inch 25 pound disadvantage, alot more than Sauer compared to Laraque.

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10-19-2008, 04:56 PM
  #40
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But it is delusional to think that his mere presence will prevent dangerous hits. As I said, we had Gino Odjick but how did that help Richard Zednik avoid Kyle McLaren's forearm?
So because you disagree with the opinion that a serious heavy weight can go a long way toward preventing cheap shots, then people are delusional?

It's very odd that you cite an incident where a cheap shot occured on a Montreal player as if that somehow 'proves' that having a heavy weight won't reduce those incidents.

For the record, I think you're dead wrong on this. To me it's quite obvious that having a heavy weight dramatically cuts down these incidents. Talk to any player in the league and they will tell you the presence of a big time bruiser in the line up changes the way they play in the corners, how much relish they put on a hit, and how much time they spend pushing and shoving after the whistle.

But you can pretend it doesn't.

However, that's not what you're even responding to. You're citing an incident from the 2002 playoffs as if that somehow 'proves' that a heavy weight makes these things go away. No, that's not how it works. They fight, they don't perform "magic tricks." It would require magic, or perhaps a voodoo spell, to make players not make heat of the moment plays where sticks or elbows get up, or guys get rear-ended, etc. What having a player like Larque will cut down on, in a big way, are guys like Ryan Holleweg, Darcy Tucker and Steve Downie - guys who play like punks and are loose and fast with the rules and low on respect for their opponents.

If you don't think guys like that adjust their game when they play against a club that has a guy like Laraque in their lineup, all I can say is I couldn't disagree with you more. And if you don't think that adjustment in their game dramatically cuts down on cheapshots, spears, late hits and other things, again, I simply couldn't disagree with you more.

But then again, what do I know... I'm delusional.


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10-19-2008, 05:30 PM
  #41
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Enough, now let's try and stick to the topic.

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10-19-2008, 06:18 PM
  #42
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I think it is clear that Big George didn't stop Andrei from getting smoked with his head down. As the game went on, George played physical, including tossing Fedoruk around like a salad. However, if a player skates with their head down, looking back at their pass, there is a good chance they get cracked. Unfortunately, in this day and age, an on-ice policeman cannot prevent that.

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10-19-2008, 06:57 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
So because you disagree with the opinion that a serious heavy weight can go a long way toward preventing cheap shots, then people are delusional?

It's very odd that you cite an incident where a cheap shot occured on a Montreal player as if that somehow 'proves' that having a heavy weight won't reduce those incidents.

For the record, I think you're dead wrong on this. To me it's quite obvious that having a heavy weight dramatically cuts down these incidents. Talk to any player in the league and they will tell you the presence of a big time bruiser in the line up changes the way they play in the corners, how much relish they put on a hit, and how much time they spend pushing and shoving after the whistle.

But you can pretend it doesn't.

However, that's not what you're even responding to. You're citing an incident from the 2002 playoffs as if that somehow 'proves' that a heavy weight makes these things go away. No, that's not how it works. They fight, they don't perform "magic tricks." It would require magic, or perhaps a voodoo spell, to make players not make heat of the moment plays where sticks or elbows get up, or guys get rear-ended, etc. What having a player like Larque will cut down on, in a big way, are guys like Ryan Holleweg, Darcy Tucker and Steve Downie - guys who play like punks and are loose and fast with the rules and low on respect for their opponents.

If you don't think guys like that adjust their game when they play against a club that has a guy like Laraque in their lineup, all I can say is I couldn't disagree with you more. And if you don't think that adjustment in their game dramatically cuts down on cheapshots, spears, late hits and other things, again, I simply couldn't disagree with you more.

But then again, what do I know... I'm delusional.

No, but you are off topic. The original poster made a blanket statement that Laraque would "not let it happen" in referring to runs at Canadiens players.

That was a big overstatement, and I pointed it out. I am not against having BGL here, nor am I against him relieving Komisaurus of his fighting obligations. I am also happy to have BGL fight and win against guys that TK would fight and lose against.

But all of this has nothing to do with the original point. The poster was claiming that BGL "will not" let something happened that already did happen. It was ridiculous and I'm surprised anyone is defending that statement. If the OP had written that BGL "will not stay quiet" if something like that happens, I (and probably Blades of Steel, too) would never have responded the way I did.

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10-20-2008, 05:10 AM
  #44
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Now we just need someone to knock out the players that grab him from behind when he wants to fight.


Yea what was that all about? We kept talking about that at my house. It was like some sort of plan to stop George. lol

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10-20-2008, 05:25 AM
  #45
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I think it is clear that Big George didn't stop Andrei from getting smoked with his head down. As the game went on, George played physical, including tossing Fedoruk around like a salad. However, if a player skates with their head down, looking back at their pass, there is a good chance they get cracked. Unfortunately, in this day and age, an on-ice policeman cannot prevent that.
A Habs fan in Philly? How did that happen?

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10-20-2008, 08:50 AM
  #46
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Yea what was that all about? We kept talking about that at my house. It was like some sort of plan to stop George. lol
And at my house we were asking ourselves where the hell were the other Hab players when Laraque was being hold up by 3 players, players like O'byrne and Komisarek have to start getting a little more physical when it comes to scraps

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10-20-2008, 09:25 AM
  #47
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It's very hard to prove that the presence of BGL will actually "prevent" injuries from happening, mainly because those "prevented" injuries won't happen. Maybe next time a Flyer/Bruin defender will charge one of our stars he will tone down his hit thinking about George. You can't evaluate this effect.

Last year we had a rather low number of injuries, even without an enforcer. This year we might have more, with one, but this will be because of Karma not because of what he does or not. S...ahmm...bad things happen.

We will be a dominant skilled/finesse team. Rule 101 in countering such a team is "physical intimidation". BGL's role is not to prevent injuries but to make sure that "physical intimidation" is not a tactical option for our opponent. He did that last game and did it very well (most comments from fans of former BGL teams were "why wasn't he as good with us"). That's encouraging.

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10-20-2008, 09:31 AM
  #48
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I like how that defenseman from Phoenix (might have been Yandle) went running to his bench when he gave BGL a shove in an after whistle scrum in front of the net. I rewinded and watched it a couple of times.. the look on his face was priceless. It was like he just realised that he shoved Laraque and went hiding behind the refs/other players.

If that's all Laraque can do, I will take it. I am sure that defenseman was looking to see if Laraque was on the ice every time he got on.


Last edited by Maverik: 10-20-2008 at 09:50 AM.
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10-20-2008, 09:32 AM
  #49
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Convert Kostopolous into a goon and u've got Laraque a good partner in crime =)

Seriously though, throw Begin into the mix too It's too bad we have a young guy like lapierre when you think of the possibilities begin/laraque/kostopolous could have. Future bullying line of the NHL lmao.

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10-20-2008, 03:19 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Angrychair View Post
A Habs fan in Philly? How did that happen?
Have been a Flyers and Canadiens fan since I was a little kid. My mom used to read me hockey books and started to love the stories about Beliveau, Cournoyer, Dryden, etc. I also started collecting hockey cards when I was around 5 or 6 years old and one of my favorite cards of all-time was this old O-Pee-Chee Bunny Larocque card. Have loved the Canadiens ever since. Every year myself and a couple of friends try to make it to Montreal just to go to a game and enjoy the great city. This year we are coming up April 8th - 12th and seeing the Leafs and Caps at Bell Centre.


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