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Report: Nhl Governors Considering Second Team In Toronto

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Old
10-21-2008, 11:12 AM
  #51
Beakermania*
 
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In Toronto it is not easy to get tickets....

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10-21-2008, 11:13 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
While I agree that this is a better idea then the Toronto one and I would be fine with this happening, I still don't think it addresses the NHL's need to become popularized outside of Canada. What it does do is makes one failing franchise become a success, and I'm all for that, I just don't think we need to be making multiple teams per city.
I agree that the second team in Toronto isn't going to increase hockey's popularity in the States, but I don't see how it's going to hurt, especially if it's an expansion franchise rather than relocating the Preds or the Thrashers (although I don't think that's likely).

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NJ is in a seperate state.
NYC is much more populous than Toronto and is even crazier about baseball than Toronto is.
Jets/Giants, same reasoning
Jersey is a separate state, but Newark is just outside of NYC... the majority of people who live in that area take public transit into the city to work. When you're talking about marketing something in NYC, people in that area are definitely taken into account. The Devils had to make payments to both the Rangers and Isles to be allowed to move from Colorado to NJ- that should tell you that those teams were worried about the Devils attracting some of their fans away. Even now there are a lot of Rags fans in North Jersey.

NYC itself is home to about 8 million. Toronto has more like 2.5 million. But when you consider how many Torontonians are hockey fans (probably most of them) as opposed to how many New Yorkers, I'd say Toronto probably has the edge.

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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
In Toronto it is not easy to get tickets....
Which means a second team in Toronto might have the nice benefit of making it easier for families with kids to get tickets. Aren't big chunks of the ACC taken up by guys in suits more interested than the business deals they're working on than the game?


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10-21-2008, 11:20 AM
  #53
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But Toronto already has an expansion hockey team...

Seriously, I think this is a ploy to soften the blow when Balsillie eventually buys and wants to move a team to southern Ontario. Toronto won't be screaming bloody murder given the alternative (back yard).

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10-21-2008, 11:21 AM
  #54
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What a waste

We all now that Toronto can have two teams with the interest and population of the city. The thing that never fails in Toronto is failing to embrace there great history. I am a huge hab fan and I think we have experienced bad teams and finally this great team that Bob Gainey has helped mold with great people surrounding him. That is the different about the Habs and Leafs and it will always be like that.

Instead of always thinking this sport as a business, maybe actually treat it like the great thing that it is right now. I am not sure who has made all these things happen for the habs but I think embracing the tradition of the habs this year is the best thing they could have done. Finally patching wounds with Patrick Roy was awesome that I believe was great. He is my favourite player of all time and to see him finally come back to the organziation for one night this year is awesome.

Toronto still has not pacthed things up with Sittler and you know that is sad, Mats will be treated the same way. 2 great players in history they do not embrace.

Forget expanding a new team yet, try embracing the great things the team has done for hockey so far. It does not always have to be a business 24 hours a day. And I am not a Leaf fan at all but come on. Oh and try spelling your name properly. Leafs try leaves

I am excited for the habs this year not because of what money they will make or if another team could start up in montreal hypothecially. I like the magic of the team and just the thrill of enjoying great players maturing into icons.

That is my two cents

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10-21-2008, 11:23 AM
  #55
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I've been in Montréal for only 10 years, yet I've learned to hate Toronto with passion though I've never been there.

However, you have to admire their commitment to draw sports (and even cultural) events to them. The Jays, The Raptors, MLS, maybe a Grand Prix, the Toronto Bills. I just wonder when will they get the Olympics....

Anyway - it would be a really viable option to have a second team there. Definetely viable, fierce competition and rivalry, etc. It would allow for more revenues and help keep franchises in remote american places too.

Think of the Yankees compared to the Maple Leafs. Notable difference on quality for sure, but just like the Yankees who can give to one player what the Rays give to their whole roster, the ML are a very rich franchise. Why not have a second there. As a Montrealer and a Hab fan I would hate it. But it would make more financial sense then Hamilton or Quebec or Winnipeg.

And, indeed, the sport performance means nothing in this discussion. Not like there was a huge increase in popularity in Tampa, Raleigh or Anaheim.

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10-21-2008, 11:24 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Habs View Post
I made one as well, but mine had naked women and lightSabres.
such an underrated post.





Toronto with 2 teams??? Well if Québec could come back as well... I don't mind.

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10-21-2008, 11:27 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by AD View Post
I wrote a large post answering this.. but a glitch hit my pc and I lost it.

In essence its:

Go get informed. Come back. This is a good idea.

Toronto is the market with the largest basin of Hockey lovin population in NA. So its a natural choice.

NYC has 2 (almost 3) teams..

In Baseball and football NYC, Chicago, LA, etc.. have multiple teams..
NYC has 2 (almost 3) teams but how many are actually successful? I'm not sure what net revenue looks like, but the arenas for the Islanders and Devils sure don't look *ahem* full.

The thing about Toronto is that for the most part its populous is Leaf fans, not hockey fans. A second team would be Islanders-lite. At least the Islanders and Devils have a geographic boundary from the Rangers they (and their fans) can consider their territory. I'm not sure how well a Chicago baseball-style division (north and south side, for those unaware) would work in Toronto, especially when one team is right downtown. There isn't much of a cultural boundary, either.

Suffice to say, I think you're both wrong.

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10-21-2008, 11:31 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Judge Sauer View Post
How do you even have talks about a second team in Toronto without first thinking about Quebec, Winnipeg or Hamilton?
With fans and others making noise about the proximity of the Hamilton team, how much worse is it going to be if the proposed team is in the back yard?
Because at the end of the day, Toronto is still considered a bigger hockey market than those 3 cities combined.

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10-21-2008, 11:32 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
The thing about Toronto is that for the most part its populous is Leaf fans, not hockey fans.
Few things about this:

1. There are bars in Toronto that support Montreal and (rumoured) Ottawa Senator fans exclusively, so yeah, there are a lot of hockey fans that are not just Leaf fans.

2. If you move a team like Nashville and they make the post-season; who is not going to go see them?

3. There are a lot of Leaf fans out there pissed off at MLSE, and if they had another team in Toronto to support, its not ridiculous to think they would jump to another Toronto team. We all seen it with the Ottawa Senators, who are comprised of former Habs and Leaf fans, or the Quebec Nordiques, who were comprised of former Hab fans. People will jump and new fans will be created. Not an unrealistic accessment.

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10-21-2008, 11:35 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
NYC has 2 (almost 3) teams but how many are actually successful? I'm not sure what net revenue looks like, but the arenas for the Islanders and Devils sure don't look *ahem* full.
Devils definitely have a hard time selling tickets. They do generally sell out when they play the Rags.

I'm pretty sure the Isles did ok selling tickets until they started to suck. They're getting a new rink either next year or the year after, so it'll be interesting to see if that helps them. Nassau is pretty old.

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10-21-2008, 11:36 AM
  #61
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Hamilton makes more sense, IMHO. Toronto makes sense too.

Either way, something is gonna give with failing southern teams and soon. This recession will kill them.

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10-21-2008, 11:38 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Quebec City: Bad taste in the mouths of everyone from the last attempt. While much had to do with its owners messing up, there was a serious distain for players and owners to deal with the city. Do I think it could support another club? Absolutely. I just don't see the board of Governors supporting it. You also have to remember that the Montreal Canadiens had a huge issue with Quebec when they first came in. Why would they allow them now?
What the hell is that crap... The owners wanted to keep the team there but it failed because the governments (provincial and federal) didn't want financially to build a new arena. It has nothing to do with Aubut not wanting to keep the team there . Hell, he even wants to get another team for the city. He has repeated it many times.

As for the players, I don't think I've ever heard any ex-Nordique mentionning that they didn't like the city. Prove it or it's bs.

Bettman said it also : it's not impossible that Quebec gets another team someday and I've heard many people around the league, Melnyk and Gillet for example, that Quebec should get it's team back.

One could say we lack coorporative support but I've never heard anyone back this up. So, the other day, I looked on the web and found this site http://www.lesaffaires.com/listes/quebec500.fr.html
. I was surprised to see that close to 80 of these companies are in Quebec City (or very close). And it's not considering the many companies from the rest of the province and from the rest of Canada that would support the team too. That's not too bad.

I've said it many times : the problem is the arena. The governments don't want to help financially. So, nobody is going to take the risk of investing 300 million in a arena + 300 million for a team.... 300 million maybe. not 600 million. Relocating a franchise is still a possibility but we'll see...

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10-21-2008, 11:38 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by SolkaTruesilver View Post
Would be a better idea to revive the Nordiques. With Quebec's mentality of anti-montrealism, it would be a seller..

Off course, Quebec would need to get a decent arena
The Remparts are close to selling out the Colisée, so I think a 22k-24k seats arena would do fine. About 3 minutes from where I live would be even better.

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10-21-2008, 11:39 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Few things about this:

1. There are bars in Toronto that support Montreal and (rumoured) Ottawa Senator fans exclusively, so yeah, there are a lot of hockey fans that are not just Leaf fans.

2. If you move a team like Nashville and they make the post-season; who is not going to go see them?

3. There are a lot of Leaf fans out there pissed off at MLSE, and if they had another team in Toronto to support, its not ridiculous to think they would jump to another Toronto team. We all seen it with the Ottawa Senators, who are comprised of former Habs and Leaf fans, or the Quebec Nordiques, who were comprised of former Hab fans. People will jump and new fans will be created. Not an unrealistic accessment.
I know. Such fans exist in every city. I just don't think that the number of people you're going to convert is huge.
As for Ottawa and Quebec, there's a big difference. Those teams aren't in Toronto or Montreal. Their fans are pretty regional. What region do the Toronto Team B fans come from?

As much as people whine about MLSE I don't think so many would just drop allegiances. How many of you would have swapped teams in the late 90s, early 00's if another team dropped into Montreal?

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10-21-2008, 11:41 AM
  #65
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What the hell is that crap... The owners wanted to keep the team there but it failed because the governments (provincial and federal) didn't want financially to build a new arena. It has nothing to do with Aubut not wanting to keep the team there . Hell, he even wants to get another team for the city. He has repeated it many times.

As for the players, I don't think I've ever heard any ex-Nordique mentionning that they didn't like the city. Prove it or it's bs.
I think what he meant was what you said above... the players didn't like dealing with the city as in city/provincial/federal government about funding for the new arena. I could be wrong, but I don't think he meant to say that the players didn't like the city itself.

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10-21-2008, 11:44 AM
  #66
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NYC itself is home to about 8 million. Toronto has more like 2.5 million. But when you consider how many Torontonians are hockey fans (probably most of them) as opposed to how many New Yorkers, I'd say Toronto probably has the edge.
Good point and I'd also like to add that the 2.5 million doubles to 5 million if you include the whole GTA (Greater Toronto Area).

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10-21-2008, 11:44 AM
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I know. Such fans exist in every city. I just don't think that the number of people you're going to convert is huge.
As for Ottawa and Quebec, there's a big difference. Those teams aren't in Toronto or Montreal. Their fans are pretty regional. What region do the Toronto Team B fans come from?

As much as people whine about MLSE I don't think so many would just drop allegiances. How many of you would have swapped teams in the late 90s, early 00's if another team dropped into Montreal?
IMHO, it's all about winning.

If the new team becomes a winner, they will have plenty of fans in a big rich hockey crazy city like TO.

This is more for the future. New team will target their fair share of the next generation of fans (not so much rely on the conversion of existing diehards).

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10-21-2008, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
As for Ottawa and Quebec, there's a big difference. Those teams aren't in Toronto or Montreal. Their fans are pretty regional. What region do the Toronto Team B fans come from?
Toronto. 5 Million people, maybe 2-3 Million of them are hockey fans. You're telling me all those Leaf fans who can never buy tickets because its empty corporate seats, after a few games of seeing the Toronto Arenas or whatever play, they won't switch allegiance?

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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
As much as people whine about MLSE I don't think so many would just drop allegiances. How many of you would have swapped teams in the late 90s, early 00's if another team dropped into Montreal?
Truth is, I had a lot of friends who became Colorado Avalanche fans because of Roy being traded to them, and the success they had in the mid-late 90s. Exclusively Hab fans who didn't support other teams. Call them "not true fans" or whatever you want, but I doubt I'm the only person. A lot of people jumped ship, and while the hardcore in me says good riddance, with the Houle-Tremblay era, I don't blame them.

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10-21-2008, 11:47 AM
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Just because it's been done in other sports doesn't change the fact that I feel it's a ******** idea. Also Toronto is Toronto, not NYC. There's a pretty big difference in comparison.

I understand that it is a financially sound idea, I just find it stupid when there are two professional sports teams of the same sport and league in the exact same city.
I think you should start traveling a little more.

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10-21-2008, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
Toronto. 5 Million people, maybe 2-3 Million of them are hockey fans. You're telling me all those Leaf fans who can never buy tickets because its empty corporate seats, after a few games of seeing the Toronto Arenas or whatever play, they won't switch allegiance?
I'm saying that there will be some, but it won't be an overwhelming number of people. If the team were in Hamilton, I'd say it would be overwhelming. Just not in Toronto.

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Truth is, I had a lot of friends who became Colorado Avalanche fans because of Roy being traded to them, and the success they had in the mid-late 90s. Exclusively Hab fans who didn't support other teams. Call them "not true fans" or whatever you want, but I doubt I'm the only person. A lot of people jumped ship, and while the hardcore in me says good riddance, with the Houle-Tremblay era, I don't blame them.
And now they're back. If the Leafs made a deep run in 2 years, would they still be Team B fans? As Fido22 said, it'd be all about winning for the second team, and would get second tier status whenever they aren't much better than the Leafs.

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10-21-2008, 11:52 AM
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I'm saying that there will be some, but it won't be an overwhelming number of people. If the team were in Hamilton, I'd say it would be overwhelming. Just not in Toronto.
I see your point, its just I think there are a lot of Leaf fans who wouldn't be Leaf fans if there was choice in their area aside from Detroit, Ottawa and Montreal. Again, I knew Sens fans who jumped while the Senators were still garbage and the Leafs were still good. I live in Southwestern Ontario.

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And now they're back.
Uhh... nope, they still support the Avs. They bash their goaltending problems, Ryan Smyth and how they keep going back to the Forsberg's and Foote's of the world, but they are unwavering Avalanche fans.

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10-21-2008, 11:54 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Lone Rogue View Post
I see your point, its just I think there are a lot of Leaf fans who wouldn't be Leaf fans if there was choice in their area aside from Detroit, Ottawa and Montreal. Again, I knew Sens fans who jumped while the Senators were still garbage and the Leafs were still good. I live in Southwestern Ontario.
If you hadn't noticed, so do I. I guess I just know people with greater conviction.


Quote:
Uhh... nope, they still support the Avs. They bash their goaltending problems, Ryan Smyth and how they keep going back to the Forsberg's and Foote's of the world, but they are unwavering Avalanche fans.
Are you talking about people from Windsor? Or people who live in Montreal?

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10-21-2008, 11:56 AM
  #73
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Good point and I'd also like to add that the 2.5 million doubles to 5 million if you include the whole GTA (Greater Toronto Area).
If you include surrounding areas of NYC (North Jersey, western Long Island, Westchester County NY, Fairfield County CT) the number goes up to more like 20 million. I still think the GTA has the edge as far as number of people who would support a hockey team.

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10-21-2008, 11:58 AM
  #74
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Are you talking about people from Windsor? Or people who live in Montreal?
I'm originally from Chatham (Where our Goliath of a goalie prospect is from), but due to College/University, I got friends everywhere now. Ottawa, Montreal, London, Hamilton, Toronto, Kitchener, Sarnia, etc. Most came from Southwestern Ontario, but yeah. I also got a lot of friends still from my web designer years, which includes former clients in Quebec. The ones who went from Hab Fans to Avalanche fans are still Avalanche fans. Don't know of one of them who jumped back. I'm sure some people just put their Avalanche windbreakers away (God those were gay) and went back to, I don't know, a Habs windbreaker, but the ones I know who became Avalanche fans, for the most part, have stayed.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone jumped from Habs to Nordiques to Avalanche to Habs up in Quebec. I call that the circle of life

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10-21-2008, 11:59 AM
  #75
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If you include surrounding areas of NYC (North Jersey, western Long Island, Westchester County NY, Fairfield County CT) the number goes up to more like 20 million. I still think the GTA has the edge as far as number of people who would support a hockey team.
Oh no arguments LW, I totally agree. I just knew that there were 5 million people in the GTA and have been dying to tell someone about it.

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