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Old
10-25-2008, 12:47 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by CabbageLegs View Post
YES !!!!

GO BGL GO

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10-25-2008, 02:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
The debate over fighting or no fighting in hockey may belong to another thread but I must say that emotions getting high and crowds cheering happen in other sports like football and soccer, yet any open intention to fight an opponent is strictly forbidden by the rules and enforced by referees.

This, from the history of soccer:

"There is a story which places the first football game in the east of England - where the locals played 'football' with the severed head of a Danish Prince they had defeated in battle!

In medieval times, towns and villages played against rival towns and villages - and kicking, punching, biting and gouging were allowed.

The object of the game was to move the ball to an agreed spot which had been marked out before play commenced.

Hundreds of people took part and games could last all day.

So violent did these matches become that many attempts were made by the authorities to ban soccer.

In England, King Edward III passed laws in 1331 to try and suppress football. In Scotland, King James 1, in 1424, proclaimed in Parliament, "That na man play at the Fute-ball" (No man shall play football/soccer).

Good Queen Bess, Queen Elizabeth 1 of England, had a law passed which provided for soccer players to be " jailed for a week, and obliged to do penance in church." "

There is no authorized fighting right now in soccer (though many fans would love to see some) simply because it has evolved, just like ape evolved to man.

Fighting in hockey belongs to the dark ages of the sport. The only reason it is still authorized is because Betman and the NHL use it as a marketing tool. It would be perfectly feasible for referees to control and eliminate cheap shots.

I would rather see skilled players then enforcers, I'm more pleased to see Kovalev score a goal then Laraque win a fight...and indeed, I never played the game. Does this make my opinion worthless ?

It's a sport where the purpose is to put the puck in the net not to break the enemy's face. At least that's what the rules say. For face breaking there are other well regulated sports like Boxing and TKO. And even wrestling, or the circus, if you are into that kind of show.
Just to point out a few flaws in this logic.

1. Hockey is played at a considerably faster pace/speed than any other sport, like football and soccer, thus leading to much larger collisions. Since these collisions occur at a faster rate wouldn't it be justifiable to say that athletes have less time to react to said collisions. Due to the fact they have less reaction time more of these hits/plays will be deemed cheap shots. There is absolutely no way that a referee can eliminate cheap shots. There are cheap shots in every sport including football and soccer, the fact that more occur in hockey IMO is due to the faster rate of play.

2. Since there is in essence no way to eliminate the cheap shot in hockey, players will always fight. This comes down to the fact that every player/team views a play differently. They even occasionally fight in baseball and basketball, although not very well.

3. There are plenty of skilled players that still throw the fists. If you wanted to eliminate fighting from the game guys like Iginla, Lecavalier, Morrow, Chara, Horton, Mike Richards, Phaneuf, Getzlaf, Doan, etc. wouldn't be able to play their game. Heck even the greats like Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemeiux dropped the gloves. The greatest Hab of all time, Rocket Richard, fought when need be.

I just don't see how it is feasible to eliminate fighting from the arguably the most physical game on the planet. Sometimes it comes down to the fact that a message has to be sent and I personally do not want to see a player miss an entire game just to send that message.

Also as a point I would like to make. Hockey players are generally very proud people, when called out they answer 90% of the time. I myself have been in several hockey fights, not because I picked it, but because I was called out and respected the player/team enough to answer for previous plays. I expect the same of all players playing professional hockey.

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10-25-2008, 07:48 AM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gorman03 View Post
Just to point out a few flaws in this logic.

1. Hockey is played at a considerably faster pace/speed than any other sport, like football and soccer, thus leading to much larger collisions. Since these collisions occur at a faster rate wouldn't it be justifiable to say that athletes have less time to react to said collisions. Due to the fact they have less reaction time more of these hits/plays will be deemed cheap shots. There is absolutely no way that a referee can eliminate cheap shots. There are cheap shots in every sport including football and soccer, the fact that more occur in hockey IMO is due to the faster rate of play.

2. Since there is in essence no way to eliminate the cheap shot in hockey, players will always fight. This comes down to the fact that every player/team views a play differently. They even occasionally fight in baseball and basketball, although not very well.

3. There are plenty of skilled players that still throw the fists. If you wanted to eliminate fighting from the game guys like Iginla, Lecavalier, Morrow, Chara, Horton, Mike Richards, Phaneuf, Getzlaf, Doan, etc. wouldn't be able to play their game. Heck even the greats like Howe, Orr, Gretzky and Lemeiux dropped the gloves. The greatest Hab of all time, Rocket Richard, fought when need be.

I just don't see how it is feasible to eliminate fighting from the arguably the most physical game on the planet. Sometimes it comes down to the fact that a message has to be sent and I personally do not want to see a player miss an entire game just to send that message.

Also as a point I would like to make. Hockey players are generally very proud people, when called out they answer 90% of the time. I myself have been in several hockey fights, not because I picked it, but because I was called out and respected the player/team enough to answer for previous plays. I expect the same of all players playing professional hockey.
These are all great points but you won't change these peoples opinions because they have never played the game before and only rely on what they see with their tree hugging eyes. Anyway if by chance the Ducks hit Koivu from behind and he ends up on the injured list for 4 weeks , all these tre huggers will be happy to see BGL pummel the crap of the culprit. You see it's mainly people playing devils advocate trying to get a response to their arguements.

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10-25-2008, 08:08 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Newhabfan View Post
I would rather see skilled players then enforcers, I'm more pleased to see Kovalev score a goal then Laraque win a fight...and indeed, I never played the game. Does this make my opinion worthless ?
No, it doesn't make your opinion worthless, everyone's entitled to have one.

It simply explains where you're coming from and why you don't necessarily understand the points that others are making.

People who have played hockey understand the role of fighting far better than those who haven't played it. I have played hockey at semi-competitive level for years (long time ago though) and to me it's absolutely crystal clear that fighting is needed as a deterrent and as a way to blow off some steam when emotions are running too high.

I've also played soccer and there's absolutely no need for fighting there simply because it's far less physical and emotions don't run so high.

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10-25-2008, 08:41 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by CabbageLegs View Post
YES !!!!

GO BGL GO
No he's not, per CKAC the 4th line will be Dandenault-Lappierre-Higgins

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10-25-2008, 10:47 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
No he's not, per CKAC the 4th line will be Dandenault-Lappierre-Higgins
Maybe Laraque is taking A. Kost's spot on the Kovalev, Pleks line he was practicing with kovalev yesterday at practice

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10-25-2008, 02:40 PM
  #57
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Nevermind what i said, Bégin-Lappierre-Laraque is the 4th line, AWESOME!!!!!!

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Old
10-25-2008, 08:25 PM
  #58
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Did Parros and Laracque fight tonight? We want to see a super heavyweight tilt

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10-25-2008, 08:44 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by GNick42 View Post
Did Parros and Laracque fight tonight? We want to see a super heavyweight tilt
No not yet, I don't think it's going to happen tonight. There's currently 3 minutes left in the game.

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10-26-2008, 08:43 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by gorman03 View Post
BGL should smoke him. Parros is arguably a top 10 fighter behind Boogard, Brash, Orr, Godard, McGrattan, King, Peters, etc.

Be a good scrap though, because Parros doesn't mind opening up.
Yeah parros has no problem opening up but laraque does. against any big HW george gets in , throws the left noogies then muscles the guy dow, fight over.. He has done it for years which is the ONLY reason he doesnt lose more..

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10-26-2008, 08:46 AM
  #61
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That was a letdown. George didn't seem to want to drop them at all last night. You would think a match against the Ducks would have woke him up.

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10-26-2008, 08:53 AM
  #62
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All right, I'll throw myself in the lava here but, am I the only one who thinks having BGL in the line up is not such a great thing?

Pros : He can intimidate the other team I guess. He is also very good at protecting the puck.

Cons : He cannot retrieve pucks, he cannot join in the play with speedy players like Lapierre and eventually Kostopoulos. He doesn't make good passes.... All in all, he is slow and doesn't have a lot of hockey sens. Because of his lack of speed, he is very poor in the defensive end.

I think he is a good thing to have for the regular season, because he might just deter the other teams to take cheap shot at our players and cause stupid injuries. But come playoff time, I would much rather see a speedy wrecking ball forth line of Lapierre (man is he playing well this year), Kosto (the perfect 4th liner in a cap world) and whoever, maybe Chipchura who played a great game last time!

Please convince me that BGL is of any use to this team, except the for the "not mean enough" goon role...

Edit : Actually, creating chemistry between him and Lapierre/Kostopoulos during the season could payoff at the end of the year. I know BGL can be useful when his linemates set him up behind the net, they just have to find a way to get him the puck , because he won't get it himself.

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10-26-2008, 09:00 AM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Licou View Post
All right, I'll throw myself in the lava here but, am I the only one who thinks having BGL in the line up is not such a great thing?

Pros : He can intimidate the other team I guess. He is also very good at protecting the puck.

Cons : He cannot retrieve pucks, he cannot join in the play with speedy players like Lapierre and eventually Kostopoulos. He doesn't make good passes.... All in all, he is slow and doesn't have a lot of hockey sens. Because of his lack of speed, he is very poor in the defensive end.

I think he is a good thing to have for the regular season, because he might just deter the other teams to take cheap shot at our players and cause stupid injuries. But come playoff time, I would much rather see a speedy wrecking ball forth line of Lapierre (man is he playing well this year), Kosto (the perfect 4th liner in a cap world) and whoever, maybe Chipchura who played a great game last time!

Please convince me that BGL is of any use to this team, except the for the "not mean enough" goon role...

Edit : Actually, creating chemistry between him and Lapierre/Kostopoulos during the season could payoff at the end of the year. I know BGL can be useful when his linemates set him up behind the net, they just have to find a way to get him the puck , because he won't get it himself.
Why would you post this after he had a decent game? The 4th line were making things happen most of the night, & he kept Anaheim's 4th line honest...in case you didn't notice, Anaheim's 4th line were out there a LOT.


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10-26-2008, 09:01 AM
  #64
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i actually saw laraque make a couple of good plays last night, the made nice passes and created openings. Carbo said he wanted to see laraque play the puck and not fight all the time.. i think we saww that that last night

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10-26-2008, 10:47 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Licou View Post
You are probably right but, let's just say the Thornton fight was pretty useless. He did what he had to do against Phoenix and that's more than fine by me.

I guess I'm just voicing my own opinion but, I don't really enjoy two heavy weights going at it when nothing is on the line...
The Thornton fight was retribution because in a previous game (pre-season Oct 1st) in which Laraque wasn't playing, Thornton pummeled Begin, a player much smaller than him. George wanted to give him a message. I have nothing against that.

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10-26-2008, 11:00 AM
  #66
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Originally Posted by CabbageLegs View Post
These are all great points but you won't change these peoples opinions because they have never played the game before and only rely on what they see with their tree hugging eyes. Anyway if by chance the Ducks hit Koivu from behind and he ends up on the injured list for 4 weeks , all these tre huggers will be happy to see BGL pummel the crap of the culprit. You see it's mainly people playing devils advocate trying to get a response to their arguements.
Tree ugger is just a silly name that peopl ethrow in to try and make their arguement appear more valid.

I can name you more than a few posters on this baord that have followed the game for 40 years + that feel that fighting may have outlived its usefullness.

I'm ambivalent on the subject because I believe that the time has come to take a serious look at how fighting is penalized. Don't talk about removing from the game, it already is against the rules, it's just an issue of punishment.

I believe that marketing is the chief reason that fighting is lightly penalized. The NHL can't take away the instigator rule, or reduce penalties for subsequent fights because they don't want the thug image, but they want the threat of a fight to be there.

My ambivalence is that I find myself a bit hypocritical in that over a few beers, I'm happy to talk about the great fights I've seen, and I admit to wanting to see my guy beat your guy. I also have no belief in th eleague's ability to punish cheapshots.

I also believe that a Chara like player can kill someone with a punch and it'll send all of us to th enearest soapbox to preach about how this could have been avoided.

Then again, maybe I'll just go hug a tree.

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10-26-2008, 11:02 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Tree ugger is just a silly name that peopl ethrow in to try and make their arguement appear more valid.

I can name you more than a few posters on this baord that have followed the game for 40 years + that feel that fighting may have outlived its usefullness.

I'm ambivalent on the subject because I believe that the time has come to take a serious look at how fighting is penalized. Don't talk about removing from the game, it already is against the rules, it's just an issue of punishment.

I believe that marketing is the chief reason that fighting is lightly penalized. The NHL can't take away the instigator rule, or reduce penalties for subsequent fights because they don't want the thug image, but they want the threat of a fight to be there.

My ambivalence is that I find myself a bit hypocritical in that over a few beers, I'm happy to talk about the great fights I've seen, and I admit to wanting to see my guy beat your guy. I also have no belief in th eleague's ability to punish cheapshots.

I also believe that a Chara like player can kill someone with a punch and it'll send all of us to th enearest soapbox to preach about how this could have been avoided.

Then again, maybe I'll just go hug a tree.
Have a great hug but don't try to change the game.

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10-26-2008, 11:16 AM
  #68
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Why would you post this after he had a decent game? The 4th line were making things happen most of the night, & he kept Anaheim's 4th line honest...in case you didn't notice, Anaheim's 4th line were out there a LOT.

My point is that a faster player would be way more effective playing with Lapierre and Begin.... Maybe I am wrong but, this is just my opinion

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10-26-2008, 11:24 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by CabbageLegs View Post
Have a great hug but don't try to change the game.
The game changes whether you want it to or not. Just the size and speed of the players has changed the game. Shift length has made what you see different from what we saw 30 years ago. The ability to inflict damage goes up and so will the safety rules.

The potential for serious injury drives things , it has in the past and will again. I'm not sure that I want to take away the player's ability to use fighting as a tactic just yet, but it'll happen at some point. A tough guy, probably in junior will target a non fighter and one time, when an injury occurs, an assault charge will stick and while we cry about how sports should be left alone, something will change. It might not be tomorrow, but it'll inevitably change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Licou View Post
My point is that a faster player would be way more effective playing with Lapierre and Begin.... Maybe I am wrong but, this is just my opinion
I don't think GL's linemates are good enough with the puck that having a more skilled player, or even a faster player would help much. They're supposed to keep th epuck in the attacking zone and they do it, so.....


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 10-26-2008 at 11:41 AM.
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10-26-2008, 12:38 PM
  #70
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First of all, the Thornton fight was not useless. Just like Chris Neil, you can bet that he did something during the season or pre-season that deserved a good dose of Big Georges.

Second. If Parros were to invite BGL to fight, BGL would have a really hard time taking a guy with a mustache like that seriously. He'd laugh and shake his head.

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10-26-2008, 01:02 PM
  #71
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First of all, the Thornton fight was not useless. Just like Chris Neil, you can bet that he did something during the season or pre-season that deserved a good dose of Big Georges.

Second. If Parros were to invite BGL to fight, BGL would have a really hard time taking a guy with a mustache like that seriously. He'd laugh and shake his head.
How DARE you diss the stache! *pets his 'stache & consoles it*


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10-26-2008, 01:13 PM
  #72
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How DARE you diss the stache! *pets his 'stache & consoles it*

looooooooool nice

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10-26-2008, 01:14 PM
  #73
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All of a sudden I am overcome by a potato chip craving...

I hate you, Parros.

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10-26-2008, 01:19 PM
  #74
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I want to see Laraque and MacIntire from Edmonton go at it. I've seen this guy through down some good hits and others aren't even close fighting him. Although I haven't really seen him fight another heavy weight.

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10-26-2008, 02:01 PM
  #75
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Several points:

1. There are three major arguments for keeping fighting:
a) tradition - it was always here
b) show - that's what people want to see
c) self policing to prevent cheap shots.

For a) - traditions are known to change and become obsolete (we are ruled by a queen btw.)I won't comment on b).

As for c) - American Football, a sport that I discovered at the same time as hockey, is just as intense, as physical and as fast (probably faster - in bursts). Also, there is more unavoidable physical contact and there is physical intimidation (see those nasty QB sacks) as a legal tactic. And cheap shots aimed to hurt. Yet fighting is severely punished. Also, there are hockey leagues that do not allow fighting yet they do provide a decent show and skilled players.

Laraque is needed in the lineup right now because this is how NHL works. He was decent last night - and there was no need for him to do anything. We were not intimidated in any way by the Ducks - just outplayed and (maybe) outcoached.

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