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Valentenko signed in Russia

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Old
10-31-2008, 09:01 AM
  #301
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
At this point, if Ganey says something definitive then we know. If we get 'according to our sources' we're just guessing.
Yeah, I'll wait word from BG before making any sort of assumptions.

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10-31-2008, 09:06 AM
  #302
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Well, lets hope Bob tells us today, else the whole weekend will be nothing but speculation.

After all, he's the GM, and he'd better know. If he's unsure today, then that tells me that Tank et al weren't up front. And if that's the case - I have no respect for disloyal employees.

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10-31-2008, 09:13 AM
  #303
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Assumptions or not, why do we treat hockey players to a higher standard than 99.9% of society? Everyone is always open to better opportunities, advancements, etc. Last time I checked we live in a free society where one has options to make the best decisions for one's self. And please let's not start with the sanctity of the "contract". Contracts are agreements that are made to be broken, to be replaced by a subsequent agreement. Keeps all the "banana's" of this world employed.

I also don't understand the panic of losing a player that is so far down the depth chart that he's looking like an AHL lifer. Please someone indicate how Valentenko makes this roster in the next five years given the age of our current defense corp, the fact that Carle and Weber are ahead in Hamilton, with the possibility of Emelin coming to Montreal next year, and we haven't even touched Subban and McDo.

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10-31-2008, 09:16 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
Well, lets hope Bob tells us today, else the whole weekend will be nothing but speculation.

After all, he's the GM, and he'd better know. If he's unsure today, then that tells me that Tank et al weren't up front. And if that's the case - I have no respect for disloyal employees.
There are so many variables, I think that if in fact he decided to stay, and work out a deal, Dynamo probably did a hard sell job and announced it to their favour. PV could be a little vague with Gainey or Brisebois, who knows. I'd be very surprised if gainey knows exactly what's going on, and PV probably has little idea that anyone on the internet cares that much.

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10-31-2008, 09:21 AM
  #305
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I'm assuming that using this scenario as a reason for signing Valentenko in Russia is the lowest of stretches. Dirt bag even.

Curious as to how Kovalev and Markov are going to respond to this.
Ummmm... you realize how hard it is for him to go home from hamilton to be with his father on a regular basis right?? At least in Russia he can see his father when he isn't playing hockey.

Also paying for his father's treatment would be a violation of the CBA rules... so no the Habs can't do that.

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10-31-2008, 09:32 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Ummmm... you realize how hard it is for him to go home from hamilton to be with his father on a regular basis right?? At least in Russia he can see his father when he isn't playing hockey.

Also paying for his father's treatment would be a violation of the CBA rules... so no the Habs can't do that.
they can't officially but, the fact is that they surely can using the boards., I'm not criticizing them at all, just saying they can.

Hey, if my dad, at 21, would be very sick, I'd be there for him, no matter what else happens. The only thing I don't like is the 3 year, but we'll see.

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10-31-2008, 09:53 AM
  #307
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In the meantime....Alexander Vasyunov leaves Russia to play for the Devils farm team....seems that it does work both ways...

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10-31-2008, 09:57 AM
  #308
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Originally Posted by CH4THECUP View Post
they can't officially but, the fact is that they surely can using the boards., I'm not criticizing them at all, just saying they can.

Hey, if my dad, at 21, would be very sick, I'd be there for him, no matter what else happens. The only thing I don't like is the 3 year, but we'll see.
If they ever got caught paying him in an "unofficial" manner; it would be a huge scandal, and they would get in tons of trouble from the league. You don't take chances like that with the CH.

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Assumptions or not, why do we treat hockey players to a higher standard than 99.9% of society? Everyone is always open to better opportunities, advancements, etc. Last time I checked we live in a free society where one has options to make the best decisions for one's self. And please let's not start with the sanctity of the "contract". Contracts are agreements that are made to be broken, to be replaced by a subsequent agreement. Keeps all the "banana's" of this world employed.

I also don't understand the panic of losing a player that is so far down the depth chart that he's looking like an AHL lifer. Please someone indicate how Valentenko makes this roster in the next five years given the age of our current defense corp, the fact that Carle and Weber are ahead in Hamilton, with the possibility of Emelin coming to Montreal next year, and we haven't even touched Subban and McDo.
Valentenko was the top LD in Hamilton. Carle and Weber are RD. Valentenko is the first call up at LD. Infact everyone you mentionned is a RD; with the exception of McD.

Valentenko playse a totally different game than Carle and Weber, a punishing physical game... thats a big factor too.

Also as far as Carle and Weber being ahead of him, I'm not so sure.... before camp where Weber shined and Carle was injured Timmins said that Valentenko was probably gonna be the first callup on D from Hamilton this season. Perhaps Weber passed him on the depth chart, but I don't see how Carle could have passed him when he has been injured till now. Also we have the RD/LD situation, so it depends who gets hurt. Lets also remember our spares in montreal (Breezy, and Dandy) are both RD.


So yes we are losing someone pretty high up on the depth chart. He is the most NHL ready LD and Bouillion's probable replacement next year. McD can't be called up from the NCAA unless he decides to leave mid-season ala Okposo or Trotter... i doubt this will happen.

I hope we sign McD this summer so he can go to Hamilton and adjust to the pro schedule, ala MaxPac.

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10-31-2008, 10:29 AM
  #309
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I feel for the poor guy if his dad has cancer -- it's a terrible thing and at 21 to be facing that loss is even worse. Best of luck to PV and his whole family.

From the Habs POV however..... a guy who leaves the club, then surprises everyone with a KHL contract - let's just say his chances of ever wearing the CH just shot down to 1%. Even with extenuating circumstances, and a "comeback clause", etc. etc. it still seems unlikely that the org will be very welcoming should he decide to return. It seems much more likely his rights would be tossed into a trade right now more than anything else.

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10-31-2008, 10:30 AM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
So yes we are losing someone pretty high up on the depth chart. He is the most NHL ready LD and Bouillion's probable replacement next year. McD can't be called up from the NCAA unless he decides to leave mid-season ala Okposo or Trotter... i doubt this will happen.

I hope we sign McD this summer so he can go to Hamilton and adjust to the pro schedule, ala MaxPac.
I think your making too much of the LD/RD situation.

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10-31-2008, 11:03 AM
  #311
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as for LD/RD...

Did you see what happened when Rivet tried to switch sides?? How bout O'Byrne... etc.

its a big deal to me cause when you are playing d, you often have only one hand on your stick. A right shooter on RD always keeps his stick in the middle of the ice... same with a left shooter on LD. Makes coverage better, pass interceptions, etc...

IMO its way easier to play your off side on forward than on D

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10-31-2008, 12:29 PM
  #312
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[QUOTE=Beakermania;16106006]If they ever got caught paying him in an "unofficial" manner; it would be a huge scandal, and they would get in tons of trouble from the league. You don't take chances like that with the CH.



Valentenko was the top LD in Hamilton. Carle and Weber are RD. Valentenko is the first call up at LD.

Did you see him play this year? He was not impressive in camp nor the games in Hamilton. Henry and Belle were way better on the left side.

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10-31-2008, 01:00 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Habnot View Post
I also don't understand the panic of losing a player that is so far down the depth chart that he's looking like an AHL lifer. Please someone indicate how Valentenko makes this roster in the next five years given the age of our current defense corp, the fact that Carle and Weber are ahead in Hamilton, with the possibility of Emelin coming to Montreal next year, and we haven't even touched Subban and McDo.
That's just flat out wrong, so did Valentenko look like an AHLer lifer last year when he was the Dogs top D (when O'B wasn't on the team and not at the start of the season) If Carle is higher on the depth chart then Valentenko, then why was Valentenko the better defensemen last year?

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I think your making too much of the LD/RD situation.
I think your making too little of the LD/RD situation. Some can play either side some can't.

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Originally Posted by AllCanadienFan View Post
Did you see him play this year? He was not impressive in camp nor the games in Hamilton. Henry and Belle were way better on the left side.
I saw him in preseason and his 4 games with Hamilton, so he looked a little rusty and didn't impress as he should have, he flat out sucked at the start of last season and ended up turning it around in a big hurry to be the top D on the team imo. So maybe he starts off slowly. Henry should be better as he's got a lot more experience and Belle hasn't been great, he's had some good games and some not so good games.

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10-31-2008, 01:04 PM
  #314
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That's just flat out wrong, so did Valentenko look like an AHLer lifer last year when he was the Dogs top D (when O'B wasn't on the team and not at the start of the season) If Carle is higher on the depth chart then Valentenko, then why was Valentenko the better defensemen last year?



I think your making too little of the LD/RD situation. Some can play either side some can't.
Gros Bill, tell Montreal that I think it matters a lot more for a right handed shot moving left than it does for a left moving right. As there are more left shooters out there, it happens more with much greater success. I don't know if PV adapts easily but many do [left to right]. Gorges is a good current example.

I do agree that it does matter to the org., the guy brings a physical agressive element that differs from Carle and Weber and some others, but it if you're going to lose a prospect, in terms of org. depth, I guess he plays a position that is loaded.

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10-31-2008, 01:11 PM
  #315
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Gros Bill, tell Montreal that I think it matters a lot more for a right handed shot moving left than it does for a left moving right. As there are more left shooters out there, it happens more with much greater success. I don't know if PV adapts easily but many do [left to right]. Gorges is a good current example.

I do agree that it does matter to the org., the guy brings a physical agressive element that differs from Carle and Weber and some others, but it if you're going to lose a prospect, in terms of org. depth, I guess he plays a position that is loaded.
Gros Bill has asked me to tell you that he does not want to speak to you directly anymore, so if you want him to tell Montreal something.. you have to go through me.

Gros Bill aslo wants me to tell you that he disagrees with you and he thinks you smell.


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10-31-2008, 01:18 PM
  #316
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[QUOTE=AllCanadienFan;16107544]
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
If they ever got caught paying him in an "unofficial" manner; it would be a huge scandal, and they would get in tons of trouble from the league. You don't take chances like that with the CH.



Valentenko was the top LD in Hamilton. Carle and Weber are RD. Valentenko is the first call up at LD.

Did you see him play this year? He was not impressive in camp nor the games in Hamilton. Henry and Belle were way better on the left side.
Belle??? are you kidding me??? Belle is a joke as a defenceman... there is no way he has played better than Valentenko

Henry? I can agree with that... but its also a small sample size as Valentenko played 4 AHL games....

Valentenko was the top LD in Hamilton the entire second half of last season... thats what i was basing things on.

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10-31-2008, 01:31 PM
  #317
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Gros Bill has asked me to tell you that he does not want to speak to you directly anymore, so if you want him to tell Montreal something.. you have to go through me.

Gros Bill aslo wants me to tell you that he disagrees with you and he thinks you smell.
I may have to start a communication team. I do smell btw. Is that bastidge in my house, too late aaaarrrrggghh, [struck by shovel]

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10-31-2008, 01:43 PM
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I find it interesting that some people are throwing Carle's name above Valentenko's on the depth chart, especially taking last season into consideration.

We haven't even seen Carle really settle in the AHL yet IMO. Carle had a tough time last season, missing a lot of the early games through injury which forced him to adapt to the AHL in mid-season, when everyone else (pretty much) was up to speed, both as individuals and as teams. He showed some great flashes of skill and awareness with the puck, both going forward and when set up in the offensive zone. But does anyone else remember some of the mistakes he made last year? I know in the old 'rookie Dman' Vs Brisebois/Dandenault debate, there is the arguement that at least a rookie has time to learn and correct their mistakes, and of course, at his age, he has a lot of time to develop. But people talking about the next Dman in line for Montreal and citing Carle? Come on. Experience or not, those mistakes won't fly in Montreal unless it is clear that he is being used in a role that asks more of him then we should reasonably expect. After half a season last year, he still struggled in his own zone and that was in the AHL. Carle should not see NHL ice time until he proves something in Hamilton that benefits his team in their own end, regularly. He needs time and opportunity to do that, so calling him up should not be an option unless we have a severe lack of depth on D at some point. Let him play the AHL a while, he needs it until proven otherwise.

As for Valentenko, he started his first few games in the AHL last year poorly as well. But after about 2 months of action, he'd cut most mistakes out of his game. After about 4 months, he was rock solid at the back and helped put the odd few points on the board. He had a slight decline in play towards the end of the year, but when half the team as good as gives up once they are denied a playoff spot, it's hard to focus the blame on a 20 year old rookie who has travelled half way around the world to adapt to a new style of hockey.

I didn't see much pre-season action so I can't comment on that, I'll leave that for others to detail. By consensus, he wasn't good. But I don't see why people are getting on his case for his 4 games in the AHL this year. He wasn't at his best, there were a few mistakes present in his game, but he was hardly bad/awful. He looked like a young kid trying to get his rhythm back, but he had some positive moments that all seem to have been conveniently forgotten. Not to mention, he may well have been playing while knowing that all was not well at home.

The LD/RD arguement has some value, but I think someone earlier said it should be on a case by case basis, which seems fair to me. Seeing as we don't have the opportunity to see these guys tried out of their comfort zone unless it happens in a match, it's hard to call. But it should be considered. The style of play arguement is important though. Tank can shoot almost as well as Carle/Weber, probably harder though. He can't move the puck up ice as well as they can. He has his moments making great passes, but the other two are clearly better. But along the boards? In front of the net? Defending a 2 on 1? Making the Dogs zone a place where other teams forwards watch where they skate? I'll take Tank for those jobs any day of the year anyone can name until the other two show me something to make me change my mind. Based on this years play or lastyears. Weber is starting to look better in his own zone, but hasn't been overly tested. Carle was a mixture of average/occasionally brutal in his own zone in his first game of the year, but he needs time to get used to being back on the ice in game situations.

Team needs would likely have played a big part in who would have gotten the next call up on D. But people counting out Pavel on the basis of a few pre-season games makes no sense to me whatsoever.

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10-31-2008, 01:54 PM
  #319
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http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=254335&l...headlines_main

Canadiens suspend Valentenko without pay

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The Montreal Canadiens suspended Pavel Valentenko without pay on Friday after the prospect left the Hamilton Bulldogs of the American Hockey League to sign a three-year contract with Dynamo Moscow.

Valentenko was in the second year of a three-year, entry-level deal with the Canadiens organization, but opted to sign with Dynamo at the urging of his family, the player's Ottawa-based agent Rolland Hedges said.

The Canadiens made no further comment, but an NHL spokesman says the league has raised the issue with the International Ice Hockey Federation. Valentenko will also need clearance from the Russian Hockey Federation before he can play for Dynamo in the Continental Hockey League, known as the KHL, according to Hedges.

...

After playing all of last season and the first four games of this season with Hamilton, he was given permission to return to Russia to attend to a family matter. He said the signing was not premeditated.

"His intention was to go home to see his parents and see what he could do," said Hedges. "When he got home, his father already had the deal done (with Dynamo).

"And if you saw the size of the deal, you'd see why."
Maybe now people with think twice about calling him a heartless Euro, traitor, etc. You would've done the exact same thing in his situation.


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10-31-2008, 01:59 PM
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http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=254335&l...headlines_main

Canadiens suspend Valentenko without pay



Maybe now people with think twice about calling him a heartless Euro, traitor, etc. You would've done the exact same thing in his situation.
I think that just maybe there's more going on in this world than following prospects and the Canadianna dream of the NHL. Everybody has their own situation and has to do what's best for them. Depending on what's true, I don't see why any doors would be closed in the future.

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10-31-2008, 01:59 PM
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Like someone already mentioned, if it was a matter of supporting his family, I highly doubt that the Habs wouldn't have increased his salary to keep him here. An extra few hundred thousand is like peanuts to this team.

I wonder if Gainey offers him some more money now...

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10-31-2008, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by TomPlex View Post
Like someone already mentioned, if it was a matter of supporting his family, I highly doubt that the Habs wouldn't have increased his salary to keep him here. An extra few hundred thousand is like peanuts to this team.

I wonder if Gainey offers him some more money now...
The CBA wouldn't allow it. Teams can't just randomly give bonuses/raises/cash to players for any reason.

Anyway if the salary In Russia "substantially" more than the $150,000 he was making in Hamilton, it sounds like he'll be okay without the Habs' charity.

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10-31-2008, 02:01 PM
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I find it interesting that some people are throwing Carle's name above Valentenko's on the depth chart, especially taking last season into consideration.

We haven't even seen Carle really settle in the AHL yet IMO. Carle had a tough time last season, missing a lot of the early games through injury which forced him to adapt to the AHL in mid-season, when everyone else (pretty much) was up to speed, both as individuals and as teams. He showed some great flashes of skill and awareness with the puck, both going forward and when set up in the offensive zone. But does anyone else remember some of the mistakes he made last year? I know in the old 'rookie Dman' Vs Brisebois/Dandenault debate, there is the arguement that at least a rookie has time to learn and correct their mistakes, and of course, at his age, he has a lot of time to develop. But people talking about the next Dman in line for Montreal and citing Carle? Come on. Experience or not, those mistakes won't fly in Montreal unless it is clear that he is being used in a role that asks more of him then we should reasonably expect. After half a season last year, he still struggled in his own zone and that was in the AHL. Carle should not see NHL ice time until he proves something in Hamilton that benefits his team in their own end, regularly. He needs time and opportunity to do that, so calling him up should not be an option unless we have a severe lack of depth on D at some point. Let him play the AHL a while, he needs it until proven otherwise.

As for Valentenko, he started his first few games in the AHL last year poorly as well. But after about 2 months of action, he'd cut most mistakes out of his game. After about 4 months, he was rock solid at the back and helped put the odd few points on the board. He had a slight decline in play towards the end of the year, but when half the team as good as gives up once they are denied a playoff spot, it's hard to focus the blame on a 20 year old rookie who has travelled half way around the world to adapt to a new style of hockey.

I didn't see much pre-season action so I can't comment on that, I'll leave that for others to detail. By consensus, he wasn't good. But I don't see why people are getting on his case for his 4 games in the AHL this year. He wasn't at his best, there were a few mistakes present in his game, but he was hardly bad/awful. He looked like a young kid trying to get his rhythm back, but he had some positive moments that all seem to have been conveniently forgotten. Not to mention, he may well have been playing while knowing that all was not well at home.

The LD/RD arguement has some value, but I think someone earlier said it should be on a case by case basis, which seems fair to me. Seeing as we don't have the opportunity to see these guys tried out of their comfort zone unless it happens in a match, it's hard to call. But it should be considered. The style of play arguement is important though. Tank can shoot almost as well as Carle/Weber, probably harder though. He can't move the puck up ice as well as they can. He has his moments making great passes, but the other two are clearly better. But along the boards? In front of the net? Defending a 2 on 1? Making the Dogs zone a place where other teams forwards watch where they skate? I'll take Tank for those jobs any day of the year anyone can name until the other two show me something to make me change my mind. Based on this years play or lastyears. Weber is starting to look better in his own zone, but hasn't been overly tested. Carle was a mixture of average/occasionally brutal in his own zone in his first game of the year, but he needs time to get used to being back on the ice in game situations.

Team needs would likely have played a big part in who would have gotten the next call up on D. But people counting out Pavel on the basis of a few pre-season games makes no sense to me whatsoever.
QGD, I do wonder though if in his mind, he thought he might be closer to making it than his camp indicated ? There's no sense downgrading his potential, I just think that he might have thought he had a shot this year and was disapointed in himself.

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10-31-2008, 02:01 PM
  #324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TomPlex View Post
Like someone already mentioned, if it was a matter of supporting his family, I highly doubt that the Habs wouldn't have increased his salary to keep him here. An extra few hundred thousand is like peanuts to this team.

I wonder if Gainey offers him some more money now...
Players don't make a "few hundred thousand" in the AHL. His NHL salary is not the problem here.

I would expect he comes to camp next year on the condition that, if he doesn't make the NHL roster, he goes back to Moscow. If the Habs and Dynamo can agree on that, that is.

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10-31-2008, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TomPlex View Post
Like someone already mentioned, if it was a matter of supporting his family, I highly doubt that the Habs wouldn't have increased his salary to keep him here. An extra few hundred thousand is like peanuts to this team.

I wonder if Gainey offers him some more money now...
You can't run a business that way. Ben Maxwell's family may have some needs too, where do you stop and start ?

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