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interesting Latendresse article

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Old
10-31-2008, 07:08 PM
  #26
Lone Rogue
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Ryder, Boullion, are players with average skills. If you had to give them a mark it would be in the 60-70 range. exactly where I would put Lats.
Ain't nothing wrong with 70. Koivu has only broke it twice in his career and has never potted in more than 75 points.

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10-31-2008, 07:12 PM
  #27
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
koivu is not an average NHLer. He's in the top third of NHL players. Dandenault is a below NHLer, Begin, Kostopoulos.

Ryder, Boullion, are players with average skills. If you had to give them a mark it would be in the 60-70 range. exactly where I would put Lats.
Ryder is 28..Bouillon 33..I somewhat agree with your estimate of their skills.
But Lats is 21, still has a lot to learn and a great deal of potential.

Ryder didn't have the same potential Lats has.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
And you want to tell me that I distort the facts. In your world Lats has the 5th fastest speed on this team. Pass me that joint.

Koivu
Tanguay
Kostitsyn 1
Kostistyn 2
Higgins
Plekanec
Dandenault
Lapierre

Yeah he's definitely in that group. What do you do for a living? Stand up comedy

There's others but I won't get into it. This is exactly what I mean by the distortion of facts.
There you go, not reading clearly what I wrote because of your hate for Lats.

It's not in my world, it's in the papers. What they reported also comes from the speed coach or which ever ''expert'' it was.

I have a hard time believing it, but the ONLY way to have proof of that is by clocking them.
All the players you've mentioned have much better accelerations than Lats. But there's no way of knowing their raw speed. Don't blame me if you don't understand the difference.

Like I said, I don't really agree with it, but since there's no way of knowing how fast our players are in terms of pure speed, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to whomever said it.

You should do the same instead of thinking you know better when you clearly don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Kriss, I'm not critical of Lats. I'm critical of fans who came here and make unrealistic evaluations of the kid. Lats will be an average NHLer.
Like I said, claiming to know what type of career Lats will have when he's only 21 doesn't seem quite realistic to me.
Since you clearly think you're a realist, you should agree with me on that.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-01-2008 at 04:51 PM.
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Old
10-31-2008, 07:31 PM
  #28
onice
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Ryder is 28..Bouillon 33..I somewhat agree with your estimate of their skills.
But Lats is 21, still has a lot to learn and a great deal of potential.

Ryder didn't have the same potential Lats has.
Look, I've seen Tremblay come up, Reisborough, Shutt, Lafleur and all the others after that. I know what a young player should look like and what to expect from him

Tremblay has a bad name on this site but I'll tell you this Tremblay at 18 was head and shoulders above Lats now at 21-22. Granted he had the benefit of coaches like Ruel and Bowman but he was a much better player and he was a gritty hockey player. Except for those useless body checks, Lats' play is soft. He loses most of his battles against the boards. His defensive play makes me wish we had Ryder back and his offensive positioning is at odds with his linemates.

Why do you think his play time is gradually being reduced? He's playing badly. He's suppose to be a powerforward....damn it Tanguay can show him a thing or two about playing in front of the net. A finesse player with a rep of being soft like Tanguay is constantly in front of the net battling it out for the puck. And where is Lats? Definitely not in front of the net.

The potential you speak of is minimal and was retarded by management's bad decision to keep him on the big team when he should have gone down.

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Old
10-31-2008, 07:40 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Kriss, I'm not critical of Lats.
Have to agree with that. A critique of Lats would be based on facts, not on irrational hate and biased interpretations.

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Old
10-31-2008, 07:44 PM
  #30
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A caller to Melnick's show asked if the Canadiens should trade Guillaume Latendresse for a number 4 defenceman, to which McGuire gave the obvious answer:

They couldn't get a number 4 D for Gui!

http://habsinsideout.com/main/10286

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Old
10-31-2008, 07:57 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
I never was a big Lats fan and on top of it all the Habs I think screwed up his development by bringing him up too early.

So I find it funny that at training camp the papers claimed Lats was the 5th fastest skater on the team (I almost lost a lung laughing at that) and now you're pulling these ridiculous stats to pimp an average hockey player.

Let me ask all these Lats lovers last year your argument was he scored 16 goals two years in a row playing on the 4th line (conveniently forgetting the time he spent on the first line and played poorly) but your argument was put him on a top line and he'll produce. Well he has been on the top line. What has he produced? One meaningless goal that was scored at the end of the Maple Leafs route and for his assists he has piggy backed himself on the exceptional play of Tanguay and Koivu. The hockey skills he has demonstrated so far this year are on par with what most of you claimed Ryder provided. Terrible hockey skills yet Ryder that god awful player tallied 87 goals in three years. He earned his way on to the top line. It wasn't handed to him on a silver platter. So now that Lats hasn't lived up to your hype, you've gotta go searching for meaningless stats.

Yes his skating has improved slightly but everything else is the same. His positional play sucks like it did last year. His game involvement amounts to him giving a crushing body check and taking himself out of the play.

The more I see of Lats the more he reminds me of Kilger without the killer instinct. And Kilger was no killer.

Great post couldn't have said it better myself except for the crushing checks part. The kid is huge but plays really small, I don't think i've ever seen him throw a Phaneuf like check or dominate someone in the corners.

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Old
10-31-2008, 07:58 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
He's suppose to be a powerforward
No he is not.

He was pegged a power forward. That doesn't mean he is one. His style is nothing of a power forward. Andrei Kostitsyn is a power forward.

As well, Saku Koivu plays the net. That's what he has done his entire career. If Lats does, that means you only have Tanguay working the corners. You don't tell Saku to get away from the net, because he'll be off of his game. Lats only needs to chip in front of the net when the opportunity arises, and he does.

First you claim that an "average hockey player" is someone who gets 70 points, and thats all Lats would be, but that Saku Koivu is not an average hockey player, when his peak was 75. Now you go off on how you watched the players of the 70s and that somehow dictates you know the game. Al Stratchan has been watching hockey since the 60s and he is an idiot. It doesn't matter how long you watched, you still are expecting Latendresse to be something he is not on a line where he can't be what you want him to be. Give it up.

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Old
10-31-2008, 08:25 PM
  #33
Kriss E
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Look, I've seen Tremblay come up, Reisborough, Shutt, Lafleur and all the others after that. I know what a young player should look like and what to expect from him

Tremblay has a bad name on this site but I'll tell you this Tremblay at 18 was head and shoulders above Lats now at 21-22. Granted he had the benefit of coaches like Ruel and Bowman but he was a much better player and he was a gritty hockey player. Except for those useless body checks, Lats' play is soft. He loses most of his battles against the boards. His defensive play makes me wish we had Ryder back and his offensive positioning is at odds with his linemates.

Why do you think his play time is gradually being reduced? He's playing badly. He's suppose to be a powerforward....damn it Tanguay can show him a thing or two about playing in front of the net. A finesse player with a rep of being soft like Tanguay is constantly in front of the net battling it out for the puck. And where is Lats? Definitely not in front of the net.

The potential you speak of is minimal and was retarded by management's bad decision to keep him on the big team when he should have gone down.
I fail to see how you seeing Tremblay, Shutt, Lafleur, Riseborough play can magically make you an expert on predicting how a player will develop over the span of a 15-20year career.
Not to mention, there's no comparison possible between Lats and any of them.

I'll tell you what I've seen.
I've seen people thinking of Bertuzzi the same way you are about Lats.
Better yet, I've seen people think that about Cam Neely.
It can take some time to develop certain players, and that's where you're wrong. He's not supposed to be a Power Forward, they want him to become that. He was never a Power Forward in the juniors, but they converting him into one, and that my friend, takes time.

The way you talk off him is ridiculous. Useless bodychecks, but he's soft, loses most battles against the boards, horrendous on D, offensively lost. So how is such a bad player part of the most productive line of our team??..Oh yea, luck and piggyback riding..
You really proved how good you are at assessing talent.

He's playing badly?..Guillaume doesn't play on PK and isn't quite the regular on PP, but seeing as you don't think Ice Time is an important statistic, I didn't expect you to know that.
Did you know Lats was the 3rd Forward with the most ES Time? Only Kovy and Plek have more. But ya, that doesn't mean anything either..

It doesn't matter what YOU think Lats should be doing, or where he should be when on the ice. Carbo is the one that is running the bench, and he's obviously happy with the way Lats has been performing. So am I and so are the people that didn't expect too much out of Lats.

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Old
10-31-2008, 10:02 PM
  #34
Andy
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I'll come into the arguement, maybe if I put it in bullet points it'll sound better

- If you think Latendresse is playing great, you have really low expectations of hockey players

-Ryder had 85 goals in his first three years in the nhl, a feat that hadn't happen to a habs rookie since the 80's, earned his icetime, but everyone thought he was useless

-Higgins scored 74 goals in his first three years, hustles in and out every game,most definately earned his ice time, but he's overrated lets trade him.

-Latendresse scored 32 goals in two years, to reach either of those totals we must score 42 goals and 53 goals, which I doubt he does in the next three years.

-Lats has soft hands according to many, but I have yet to see him handle passes without them bouncing off his stick and this is a constant problem, 8 times out of 10 he'll mishandle the puck.

-Hitting is beautiful, but I have yet to see hit a player and seperate the puck from that player on a consistent basis, heck it doesn't even happen once every ten games.

-He's good along the boads, no duh, he's 235 pounds, Laraque, Kostopoulos, Lappiere play well in the boards also, lets play them with Tanguay and Koivu.

-I honestly believe that if either Kostopoulos or Lappiere was playing with Tanguay and Koivu right now, they'd have 6 assists as well.

If I had time to write more right now I would but i'll leave it at this, those who think he's is playing absolutley amazing right now, I honestly believe that you have zero to none expectations from this kid because I honestly believe that if you put any grinder on the line they'd provide you with the exact same game Lats has been offering, checking players without seperating the puck, throwing the puck into the slot or in front of the net hoping for someone to be there, carrying the puck off the half boards and passing it to the point. In two years and 9 games I have yet to say "holy **** what a pass, or holy **** what a play" when Lats is making a play.

Those who want to believe he'll become a 30-40 guy, possible 40-40 guy, you're just kidding yourselves, those who think he wont score at all, you're kidding youself.

He'll never be more than a 20-15 player, and if he plays with Koivu and Tanguay maybe he can be a 20-25 player getting more assists because of Koivu and Tanguay's finish, but there's nothing to be going crazy for a 20-15 guy.

Sad but true.

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Old
11-01-2008, 04:54 PM
  #35
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Remember when Andrei Kostitsyn was a 23 year old AHLer who most here called a bust??

Yeah so do I.

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Old
11-01-2008, 05:29 PM
  #36
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By now it's become almost fashionable to keep swinging away at Latendresse but it's overkill. It's not as though he was expected to become another Ovechkin. Let Carbonneau use him the way he wants. It won't get us anywhere to compare him to anyone else on the team just so long as he does his job and the Habs keep winning. Higgins, Plekanec, and the Kostitsyns will hit their stride sooner or later.

My pet peeve isn't with Latendresse or even with his admirers. Right now, it's with the unreasonable projections for Sergei Kostitsyn.

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