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Old
10-31-2008, 08:55 PM
  #376
Qui Gon Dave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Fist of all, Pronger was TRADED. So, Lowe obtained someone for him.
Pronger was indeed traded, so Edmonton got something for him. However, I imagine Edmonton wanted Pronger, hence they signed him to a contract with their team. When Pronger said he wanted to be traded, he put his GM in a tough spot. From that point on, GM's around the league knew that he was going to be moved and so that lessens the bargaining power Lowe had. Pronger signed a deal with one team and then wanted nothing to do with them, despite them getting to game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. The Oilers may have got something for him, but ultimately, they traded away what it was they really wanted.

On the topic of getting something for players who want to leave, what would you have wanted in return for Valentenko?

- His trade value is low so we wouldn't have got much back for him. Not to mention that trading him to another NHL team doesn't help Pavel any. He is still as far away as makes no difference from his family as he is in Montreal and he still won't be able to help his family.

- Perhaps you want financial compensation from Dynamo? What good will that do the Habs. Obviously, they are a business, so some money would be appreciated, but it won't change much. And it won't have an impact on the sporting side of les Canadiens as we wouldn't put that money towards another player. We wouldn't get cap space in return. So what do you want in return for him?

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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Dany Heatley was psychologically shaken by the accident. Staying in Atlanta was not an option. He was TRADED to Ottawa for Hossa. Not too shabby...
Dany Heatley was psychologically shaken you say? So, he wanted out of Atlanta for emotional reasons. He was traded for a good return, certainly. But he demanded a trade away from the team he signed a contract WITH, which is my point.

Pavel has just moved to Russia for emotional reasons, reasons that made staying in North America not an option, yet that is in some way wrong, you think? And again,on the trade/value angle, what would you think is a fair trade for Pavel Valentenko?

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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Valentenko's family WAS POOR before he left for North America. Why did not he signed with a Russian team before last year , if he is so family oriented ? Nobody forced him to go to Hamilton and sign an AHL contract.
Is your family life straight forward? Do things flow along at a steady pace and any major changes are sign-posted well in advance? That's not how things are in my family and I'd assume how it is in other peoples families. If things in your family don't ever change wildly or rapidly, then please consider yourself fortunate.

Why did he not sign with a Russian team back then? His goal is to play in the NHL. His goal is to play with the Montreal Canadiens. He has said as much himself. However, right now, circumstances dictate to him that this is not an option.

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So, spare me your bleeding heart.
How about I make you a deal? I'll spare you my bleeding heart if you spare us your nonsense. Deal?

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10-31-2008, 09:11 PM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
Pronger was indeed traded, so Edmonton got something for him. However, I imagine Edmonton wanted Pronger, hence they signed him to a contract with their team. When Pronger said he wanted to be traded, he put his GM in a tough spot. From that point on, GM's around the league knew that he was going to be moved and so that lessens the bargaining power Lowe had. Pronger signed a deal with one team and then wanted nothing to do with them, despite them getting to game 7 of the Stanley Cup Finals. The Oilers may have got something for him, but ultimately, they traded away what it was they really wanted.

On the topic of getting something for players who want to leave, what would you have wanted in return for Valentenko?

- His trade value is low so we wouldn't have got much back for him. Not to mention that trading him to another NHL team doesn't help Pavel any. He is still as far away as makes no difference from his family as he is in Montreal and he still won't be able to help his family.

- Perhaps you want financial compensation from Dynamo? What good will that do the Habs. Obviously, they are a business, so some money would be appreciated, but it won't change much. And it won't have an impact on the sporting side of les Canadiens as we wouldn't put that money towards another player. We wouldn't get cap space in return. So what do you want in return for him?



Dany Heatley was psychologically shaken you say? So, he wanted out of Atlanta for emotional reasons. He was traded for a good return, certainly. But he demanded a trade away from the team he signed a contract WITH, which is my point.

Pavel has just moved to Russia for emotional reasons, reasons that made staying in North America not an option, yet that is in some way wrong, you think? And again,on the trade/value angle, what would you think is a fair trade for Pavel Valentenko?



Is your family life straight forward? Do things flow along at a steady pace and any major changes are sign-posted well in advance? That's not how things are in my family and I'd assume how it is in other peoples families. If things in your family don't ever change wildly or rapidly, then please consider yourself fortunate.

Why did he not sign with a Russian team back then? His goal is to play in the NHL. His goal is to play with the Montreal Canadiens. He has said as much himself. However, right now, circumstances dictate to him that this is not an option.



How about I make you a deal? I'll spare you my bleeding heart if you spare us your nonsense. Deal?
I made my points and you made yours. As for "nonsense", I don't agree.

It"s ok for this young guy to want to make more money to help his family. he is doing it since he is 15. I am not against that.

I am against the fact that many players -especially from Russia- are not respecting signed contracts.

According to his agent based in Ottawa, when Valentenko arrived at home - for so-called personal reasons - his father had already arranged a lucrative contract with the Dynamos.

I rather called that child slavery if Pavel was unaware of that - which I doubt ! Pavel is a good boy and will bring home more money. Fine.

So, no father with cancer. And it is allright not to respect contracts.

Good

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10-31-2008, 09:43 PM
  #378
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
I am against the fact that many players -especially from Russia- are not respecting signed contracts.
Why especially from Russia? What sets them apart from a player from Canada, or Finland, or Brazil? Why not just say you don't like players who don't respect contracts they sign with a specific team?

In terms of a Russian player not respecting a contract for family reasons, or indeed any player from another continent, they don't have the same options open as a player from North America.

- A guy from North America doesn't have to deal with travelling to another continent to see his family. Chances are, he may be able to travel to see his family between games, which Mike Komisarek did when his mother had cancer. He regularly took trips down to New York to be with her and was back for the next game. For a player from another continent, such travel will not be such an easy task to undertake.

- A player from North America can ask/demand a trade to be closer to home and still play hockey and the team will get something for them (although pressumably the team would prefer to keep their player). A player from another continent does not have that option. When Montreal reacquired Traverse a few years back, he had just set up a family home in/around San Jose and his family was unable to join him in Hamilton. He played a few months with the Dogs but as a mark of respect, Gainey traded him back there for Biron.

What can Pavel do in that situation? He can't bring back a return from KHL team. In fact, from the sounds of it, if there is a clause that allows him back to Montreal next year, he has done just about what little he can to try and make sure Montreal don't lose all and any value from one of their assets. If he is at Habs camp next year, he won't have turned his back on the organisation, he'll have kept himself in game shape and the Habs will still have their asset, so what do they lose?

Out of interest, if Pavel had gone home and had announced he was retiring from hockey completely to help run a small family business, would you mind so much that he walked away from his contract with the Habs organisation? He can't do much in his situation. He has to help his family, which he can do in Russia. He may come back for the start of next year, which benefits the Habs. How would you have preferred him to handle the situation?

Either way, if a player demands a trade to another team, regardless of any return, they still want to walk away from the team they signed with, nationality makes no difference.

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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
According to his agent based in Ottawa, when Valentenko arrived at home - for so-called personal reasons - his father had already arranged a lucrative contract with the Dynamos.
That does sound very strange, I'll give you that. I'd like to hear a better explanation of that myself.

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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
So, no father with cancer.
His father may or may not have cancer, we haven't had a definitive report on that but some people have reported it. I wouldn't automatically rule it out yet.

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10-31-2008, 09:49 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
And it is allright not to respect contracts.
Wow, you were not sarcastic when you said "never" to me quoting Valentenko saying the Canadiens were "very considerate" and let him go "with no problems".

You can assume what you want, but the franchise was fine with this.

It's alright to not respect contracts? It's been happening for decades. Blake Wheeler. Eric Lindros. Ken Dryden. Bobby Hull. All examples of not following tradition and rule and everyone having to "cope" and "negotiate around". Don't treat it as something special that russians do because they are a population of reckless, ignorant people. Particularly in Valentenko's case, this is a guy who is trying to do the right thing.

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10-31-2008, 09:51 PM
  #380
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Originally Posted by CanadienErrant View Post
Malkin, and who else ? Gimme names. Since the fall of the Berlin Wall, not that many.
NHL clubs have signed five young Russians who were under contract with KHL clubs since the NHL and KHL agreed to stop signing each other's players back in July:

Andrei Loktionov (Los Angeles, signed Aug 27)
Viatcheslav Voynov (Los Angeles, signed Aug 27)
Maxim Mayorov (Columbus, signed Aug 29)
Evgeni Grachev (Rangers, signed Sep 22)
Alexander Vasyunov (New Jersey, signed Oct 29)

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11-01-2008, 01:30 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by squishy View Post
NHL clubs have signed five young Russians who were under contract with KHL clubs since the NHL and KHL agreed to stop signing each other's players back in July:

Andrei Loktionov (Los Angeles, signed Aug 27)
Viatcheslav Voynov (Los Angeles, signed Aug 27)
Maxim Mayorov (Columbus, signed Aug 29)
Evgeni Grachev (Rangers, signed Sep 22)
Alexander Vasyunov (New Jersey, signed Oct 29)
so who is winning ?

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11-01-2008, 08:48 AM
  #382
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Why especially from Russia? What sets them apart from a player from Canada, or Finland, or Brazil? Why not just say you don't like players who don't respect contracts they sign with a specific team?

Alright, that is what most everyone means - we don't like contract or oath breakers. You should respect the contract you sign. What, one day the the ownership of Team X can say one day " we're not going to pay you after all, contract or not " How well do you think that's going to go over in a court of law?

However, you folks on the defence have to open your eyes - some of the players of One nation in particular, right now at this moment in history, are proving to be very untrustworthy. If you don't think that little fact isn't weighing on the minds of scouts and GM's everywhere, well, I don't know what else to tell you.

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11-01-2008, 09:09 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
Exactly. Very Russian thing to do. No North American would ever do something so heinous. Chris Pronger signing in Edmonton and then wanting a trade after, what, a year? Poor innocent man. Dany Heatley asking to be traded after his accident which cost Snyder his life? Perfectly acceptable. Young kid half way around the world from his family making a fraction of what the previous examples make? Why, the ungrateful little swine, how dare he put his family first.
Bobby Hull, Rejean Houle, Marc Tardiff and countless others leaving NHL contracts behind to go sign with the WHL. But those don't count because they're good Canadian boys.

Can the closet bigots please keep their comments to themselves.

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11-01-2008, 09:18 AM
  #384
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Here's a transcript of a Pavel Valentenko interview in Russian media.

[Valentenko]: I did not fly into Russia to pursue the contract!

11.11.2008 10:40 Russian defenseman Pavel Valentenko told why he made the decision to move from the Montreal Canadiens to Dyanmo Moscow.

I knew that Dynamo proposed me a contract before I left for Russia, says Valentenko in an interview to “Soviet sport”. - I did not study it. Because I want to play in North America. But when I saw the offer after flying home to my parents, we reached the mutual opinion that I should play in the KHL in order to be more close to the family.

It's possible that if I'll be necessary in two years, that I will return to Montreal. I want to play in the NHL. My contract with Dynamo is for three years. But it holds a clause that if after two seasons I obtain a good proposal from across the ocean, the Dynamo management will release me without problems.

Q: Were you offended by the fact that you were never given the opportunity to play in the NHL in Montreal? They only let you play on the farm team?

PV: It's all perfectly understandable. The Canadiens have eight defensemen with one-way contracts. What other choice did I have?

Q: Why you did not directly say that you wanted to play in Russia? Why it was necessary to go to this route?

PV: I didn't fly home to pursue a contract! I had to meet my family. But the decision was already accepted/agreed in Russia.

Q Will you give a call to the management of the Canadiens? This departure will blow your reputation.

PV: I will not make the call but my agent will explain them everything.

Q: Pardon me asking but how much did you earn in Canada?

PV: 60 Thousand Dollars per year. Net value obtained is about 40. averaging about 3 thousand per month from which it was necessary to be pay the apartment, the food. It's possible to live with that amount, but that's about it. You have to be careful what to spend the money on.

But money is not very importantfor me. I do not complain. I also received a bonus when I signed my contract in Montreal. I had a great time in Canada. But a friend of mine died, Cherepanov, and it left a bad feeling with my parents. They begged me to be close to them. Therefore, and only for my parents well-being, I decided to play in the KHL.

_J-

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11-01-2008, 09:20 AM
  #385
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I have no problem with Valentenko not respecting his minor league contract with the Habs as long as we keep the NHL rights on him. The players who break NHL contracts are a different story.

In two years Pavel will be only 23 years old. Let's say he then makes $2 million per year in Russia and is one of the best defensemen over there and we offer him $3M and he comes back with us that's fine with me.

We're dreaming in color if we think these 20-year-old players will ride the buses and will stay in cheap hotels playing in some minor league for 3 years when they can play back home for much more money.

How come most of these contracts are for 3 years anyway. These contracts should be like the previous B forms players like Jean Beliveau signed instead of C forms. The players remain the property of the NHL team they signed with as far as playing in the NHL is concerned but it's possible to play in your home country if the team which signed you won't use you at the major league level.


Last edited by rocketlives: 11-01-2008 at 09:42 AM.
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11-01-2008, 09:22 AM
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
Here's a transcript of a Pavel Valentenko interview in Russian media.
Thanks. Two things...

1- It's 2 years now before he might come back? Not after this year?

2- Seems that a decision was made for him....
Quote:
But the decision was already accepted/agreed in Russia.
3- We never know, things can change but this make me think that we'll never see him again...at least not until his parents are alive......
Quote:
But a friend of mine died, Cherepanov, and it left a bad feeling with my parents. They begged me to be close to them. Therefore, and only for my parents well-being, I decided to play in the KHL.

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11-01-2008, 09:25 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
Here's a transcript of a Pavel Valentenko interview in Russian media.

But a friend of mine died, Cherepanov, and it left a bad feeling with my parents. They begged me to be close to them. Therefore, and only for my parents well-being, I decided to play in the KHL.

_J-
His parents would rather he play in poorly equipped rinks, where paramedics may or May Not be in attendance?

Money talks, doesn't it....

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11-01-2008, 09:29 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thanks. Two things...

1- It's 2 years now before he might come back? Not after this year?

2- Seems that a decision was made for him....
......
Although I'm pretty much up-to-date with what's going on in Russia I can't tell anything more about this that was stated in the interview. This mentions the two-year time point. To what extent the contract is flexibile I don't know.

I believe the "decision was made"-thing was more of a mental decision than something on paper. After all when your parents call for you and Dynamo has got a sweet offer ready for you then there's very few resistance left available. In other words, a decision was made for him.

Keep in mind family structures in Russian are different than in North-America. In North America it's very common to leave your parental home at one point to study or to play hockey at the other end of the continent. In Russian family bonds are far more tight. This isn't to say any contract can be freely broken but it's something to keep in mind though when discussing the fact that Russian players head home after some time.

PS. working on another translation of a press release by the KHL stating Valentenko's signing was completely legal and within the current rules.

_J-

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11-01-2008, 09:32 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
PS. working on another translation of a press release by the KHL stating Valentenko's signing was completely legal and within the current rules.

_J-
Gee - they really said that? It must be true!




That's not directed at you personally, Joeri Loonen.

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11-01-2008, 09:33 AM
  #390
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His parents would rather he play in poorly equipped rinks, where paramedics may or May Not be in attendance?

Money talks, doesn't it....
That's about a much generalizing as saying that someone who wants to play in the NHL wants to play in a league where young fans die after getting hit by a puck. One incident, of which mostly rumours were taken as facts, does not stand for conditions of a whole league.

If you know otherwise please let me know of all the rinks where equal accidents have happened or where paramedics are failing? I'm sure for each example you can bring up there's an equivalent to be found in North-America.

And sure money talks, but that's not different in hockey than in any other business. I assume you accepted your job not because of the social value it offers but are in it for the money as well.

_j-

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11-01-2008, 09:35 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
Keep in mind family structures in Russian are different than in North-America. In North America it's very common to leave your parental home at one point to study or to play hockey at the other end of the continent. In Russian family bonds are far more tight. This isn't to say any contract can be freely broken but it's something to keep in mind though when discussing the fact that Russian players head home after some time.

PS. working on another translation of a press release by the KHL stating Valentenko's signing was completely legal and within the current rules.

_J-
Actually, I will never condemn to see a kid going back home. I mean, even for me, let's say the KHL is the best league and I have a great offer to come back home....I'd do it too. Thing is the frustrating part for fans and for the org. is the investment and the development you a put a player that might end up serving another team in another league if they don't comeback and while it's not ALL the Russians who do that, still amongst the Euros, they are the ones that do it the most....

And for whoever keeps saying that we shouldn't put all the Russians in that category, that we shouldn't generalize etc...you're right.

Still....tell that to the 30 teams in the league...how many russians were picked last year and how many more will be in the upcoming years? All the teams will be generalizing and will be more careful with that fact.

Personnally, while I want the team to be more careful, I really hope that it will mean that some great Russians will be left out and we ended up picking them to see them come here eventually. I really hope that our scout do some extensive work as far as knowing the REAL intentions, if possible. 'Cause as much as there are stories of guys leaving, there are stories of guys coming, last one being Vasyunov. And I also remember that one of the reasons that a guy like Grachev feel down so much it's because he had a 5-year contract or something like that in Russia.....he's playing in the AHL as we speak....

As far as the KHL press release...I'm sorry but that's a freakin joke. Which rules? Their rules? Of course it is.....'cause there are no rules....or if there are, their players can't come here but our players can....if that's a rule, then yes, it's true...

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11-01-2008, 09:40 AM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
I'm sure for each example you can bring up there's an equivalent to be found in North-America.

And sure money talks, but that's not different in hockey than in any other business. I assume you accepted your job not because of the social value it offers but are in it for the money as well.

_j-
You assume wrong, but that's the thing about assumptions. They are a crap shoot. My first job was the military - not much coin there, but the social value was outstanding!

The KHL is the highest level of hockey in Russia. How many levels down, in North American hockey, do you have to go before you find the medical gong show that happened with Cherepanov? Is that what you're asking? You're trying to find a similar event in North America?

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11-01-2008, 09:48 AM
  #393
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Today the press service of the KHL published the a press release regarding the transfer of defenseman Pavel Valentenko from Montreal to Dynamo Moscow.

“On October 30, 2008 the KHL reported the introduction of defender Pavel Valentenko on the team list of Dynamo Moscow. The next day the Montreal Canadiens declared about the disqualification of the hockey player. On the information of North American side, Valentenko left the club of Montreal after playing in the American hockey league with the Hamilton Bulldogs and he left to Russia, where, in presence of an agreement with the NHL club signed a contract with Dynamo. The KHL considers it necessary to give explanations related to this transfer.

In the summer of 2007, defenseman Pavel Valentenko held a contract with Neftekhimik Nizhnekamsk that ran until 2009. He left for the training camp of the Montreal Canadiens. The contract with Neftekhimik was not annulled and at the time of the transfer to the Montreal Canadiens the hockey player's rights belonged to the Nizhnekamsk organization. On October 30, Nizhnekamsk signed a deal with Dynamo Moscow that saw Valentenko be traded in exchange for a draft pick of the 2009 KHL draft. The return of the hockey player to Russia is legitimate and the deal between Nizhnekamsk and Dynamo is realized in complete agreement of the KHL rules, it says in the Press Release.

_j-

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11-01-2008, 09:53 AM
  #394
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Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
Today the press service of the KHL published the a press release regarding the transfer of defenseman Pavel Valentenko from Montreal to Dynamo Moscow.

“On October 30, 2008 the KHL reported the introduction of defender Pavel Valentenko on the team list of Dynamo Moscow. The next day the Montreal Canadiens declared about the disqualification of the hockey player. On the information of North American side, Valentenko left the club of Montreal after playing in the American hockey league with the Hamilton Bulldogs and he left to Russia, where, in presence of an agreement with the NHL club signed a contract with Dynamo. The KHL considers it necessary to give explanations related to this transfer.

In the summer of 2007, defenseman Pavel Valentenko held a contract with Neftekhimik Nizhnekamsk that ran until 2009. He left for the training camp of the Montreal Canadiens. The contract with Neftekhimik was not annulled and at the time of the transfer to the Montreal Canadiens the hockey player's rights belonged to the Nizhnekamsk organization. On October 30, Nizhnekamsk signed a deal with Dynamo Moscow that saw Valentenko be traded in exchange for a draft pick of the 2009 KHL draft. The return of the hockey player to Russia is legitimate and the deal between Nizhnekamsk and Dynamo is realized in complete agreement of the KHL rules, it says in the Press Release.

_j-
So by saying that the contract was not annulled, does that mean that they kept paying him even though he was here? If that's not what it means but just that his rights were still his old team's property, that would mean that even with the contract he just signed, we can get him back at any time 'cause WE, now, have a contract with him and his rights belong to us as well....The situation he had with Nizhenkamsk at the time, he's having the same situation with us now....

Do you have the links of both statements? Thanks!

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11-01-2008, 09:54 AM
  #395
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You assume wrong, but that's the thing about assumptions. They are a crap shoot. My first job was the military - not much coin there, but the social value was outstanding!
If my assumption was wrong, than so be it. In your case with your first job (you never mentioned future jobs but well..) it was different indeed. Anyway I only hope you got the point as I was trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davebo View Post
The KHL is the highest level of hockey in Russia. How many levels down, in North American hockey, do you have to go before you find the medical gong show that happened with Cherepanov? Is that what you're asking? You're trying to find a similar event in North America?
Ok, I've got my opinion, you've got yours. Which is great as it keeps these boards running. I don't feel like going into a flame war here nor into a whole lot of discussion exchange. The reason for me posting here is to provide you with some media articles from Russia. How the content is interpreted is left up for everyone individual. If you feel like discussing my personal opinion that's fine but I'd prefer that to be done by email rather than on this board. No offense.

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11-01-2008, 09:56 AM
  #396
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A lot of good points made, kind of like the U.S. elections! I can see the player's point of view, he is a long way from the NHL, Carle, Weber, Belle, Henry would probably all see a call up before he does. He tried, it didn't work out, everybody moves on. I think Russia is probably going to pay (players not drafted, international reputation) by not signing a transfer agreement. It's no coincidence that the Habs ( outside of last year's pick) won't take a Russian in the draft.

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11-01-2008, 09:58 AM
  #397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
So by saying that the contract was not annulled, does that mean that they kept paying him even though he was here? If that's not what it means but just that his rights were still his old team's property, that would mean that even with the contract he just signed, we can get him back at any time 'cause WE, now, have a contract with him and his rights belong to us as well....The situation he had with Nizhenkamsk at the time, he's having the same situation with us now....

Do you have the links of both statements? Thanks!
Here you go: http://www.khl.ru/news/2008/11/1/5385.html

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11-01-2008, 09:59 AM
  #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joeri Loonen View Post
Thanks! Do you also have the link to Valentenko's interview?

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11-01-2008, 10:11 AM
  #399
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Some more quotes to be read in several articles on Soviet-Sport.

Montreal has disqualified the player and will bring this case up with the International Ice Hockey Federation.

Valentenko's agent to TSN: "Pavel left for Russia to see his parents. But when he arrived home, his father had already coordinated all conditions of a contract with Dynamo”. And when you will see the conditions of the contract, you will understand why he signed."


----

"We do not have official data about the fact that Valentenko signed the contract in the KHL, reported the press-office of the Canadiens. Pavel obtained permission to return to Russia to connect with his family because of specific cirucmstances.

"Valentenko handed in a request to the management of our pharm team asking if he could return to Russia for some period. We let him go. The reason we learned had to do with family matters."

On Valentenko's progress.

"He was not playing in Montreal, no, but in the future he surely would get a chance at the NHL level. Pavel was one of the youngest defensemen in our system."

What next?

"He has indeed left for Russia. However to date we have not received official documentation from him nor from his agent."

----

Furthermore there are several articles from Montreal newspapers like La Presse quoted and mentioned, but I'm sure you can figure out what's written there yourselves.

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11-01-2008, 10:14 AM
  #400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
Thanks! Do you also have the link to Valentenko's interview?
Et voila.

http://www.sovsport.ru/gazeta/article-item/309922

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