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Old
11-02-2008, 04:03 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
While that may be true Beaker, Komi two years ago had about 100 more games of experience than O'Byrne.

Although I agree, Ryan will never have the potential Komi has, I still feel he can a solid D.
But I guess that 8Games is enough for some people here to evaluate one's skills.
I realize that.... I'm not advocating getting rid of him for nothing or dumping him in the pressbox... I just don't think his upside is as great.

There is a reason Komi had 100 extra games at that point... he was a better D than O'byrne at a younger age; so people saying look where Komi was at the same age are wrong.

If you want to say they look similar with the same number of NHL games played... I'll accept that. i think O'byrne can grow in a way that is similar to what happened with Komi as he plays more games, i just don't think he will be as good as Komi as a finished product. Nothing wrong with that, Komi is pretty great. If O'byrne can eventually be a steady number 4 i'm fine with that... I won't be upset that he isn't as good as Komisarek.

I still stand by my earlier point... i'd rather see O'byrne making mistakes and learning on our blue line than watch breezer back there making the same mistakes he was making 10-15 years ago.

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11-02-2008, 04:16 PM
  #77
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' = Ok

I don't sit on the edge of my seat taking notes on the games like the rest of you guys seem to do but from my E-Z chair it seems
Apostrophe should stay, he'll be fine.

We need a giant genetic freak who can clear the front of the net without expending too much effort. Komi can't be the only tough guy on the D fending off those giant forwards that crash the net. Shrimps like Gorgeous Georges and Frankie Obamouillon are too small to carry that load the whole game.

And frankly Komi doesn't look nearly as scary as he used to. It looks like Komi got shrunk in the 17 th sequel of a Rick Moranis movie.

The rest of Apostrphe's game will come around. He just has to bang the puck up the boards, cover guys in the slot and the rest will take care of itself.

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11-02-2008, 04:39 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I realize that.... I'm not advocating getting rid of him for nothing or dumping him in the pressbox... I just don't think his upside is as great.

There is a reason Komi had 100 extra games at that point... he was a better D than O'byrne at a younger age; so people saying look where Komi was at the same age are wrong.
If you want to say they look similar with the same number of NHL games played... I'll accept that. i think O'byrne can grow in a way that is similar to what happened with Komi as he plays more games, i just don't think he will be as good as Komi as a finished product. Nothing wrong with that, Komi is pretty great. If O'byrne can eventually be a steady number 4 i'm fine with that... I won't be upset that he isn't as good as Komisarek.

I still stand by my earlier point... i'd rather see O'byrne making mistakes and learning on our blue line than watch breezer back there making the same mistakes he was making 10-15 years ago.
Derrick Willis as he said last year he thought O'Byrne was better then Kiomisarek was when he was in Hamilton and he's seen every game the two of them have played in the AHL, granted O'B had an extra year in the NCAA. I personally don't expect O'B to be anywhere near as good as Komi but I do think he will play a simliar style just not on the same level but still a solid NHLer. I hope we'll start to see better and better things from him but he does seem rattled right now. It's early in the season so hopefully when the schedule picks up, he get more comfortable out there. He's not really playing his style, which is a very physical defensive defensemen, so hopefully he turns things around and starts to play more like he did at the lower levels. It's a concern though, since there's no real backup other then Brezzy for now as I wouldn't want to see us look to anyone in Hamilton at this time.

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11-02-2008, 05:54 PM
  #79
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Bravo Montreal,let him make his errors only way prospects will learn. O'Bryne will be an above average Dman in this league, if the one weak point on the Habs is O"Byrne then they may as well just hand the Cup to the hands right now, unfortunately, we still have Dandenault, Brisbye, and Bouillion, so that is where the improvement has to be made, althought I feel that with Kostopoulos & the odd game by Laraque, the Dandenault problem will fix itself

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11-02-2008, 06:25 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
That's a a bunch of garbage. Last year, we were 9th in the NHL in 5-on-5 goals with 148. That's 4 goals better than Pittsburgh's 144 with all that offensive talent.

This year, our PP is currently ranked 19th in the NHL and we only have one regulation loss after 10 games. Also, despite our 19th ranked PP, we're in third place in the entire NHL in goals for per game with 3.50. Only Philly (3.90) and Detroit (3.54) are ahead of us.

What killed us in the playoff series versus Philly was that numerous aspects of our game (PP, goaltending, defense) all went south at the same time and we were low on forwards who were willing to pay the price inside the perimeter, along the walls, and in front of the net.
GTFO here. If Pittsburgh had Hossa since the beginning of the season, we wouldn't be anywhere near their ES production. Not to mention the fact that they lost Crosby for a considerable amount of time.

The PP was our bread and butter last year. There's no denying that. We finished where we finished because that PP was #1. Once that was shutdown, we suddenly became very beatable.

This year with the acquisitions, we addressed a need. ES scoring. Even with a 19th ranked PP, low and behold, we're still ahead of the pack. Where do you think we would have been had our PP been 19th last season?

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11-02-2008, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
GTFO here. If Pittsburgh had Hossa since the beginning of the season, we wouldn't be anywhere near their ES production. Not to mention the fact that they lost Crosby for a considerable amount of time.

The PP was our bread and butter last year. There's no denying that. We finished where we finished because that PP was #1. Once that was shutdown, we suddenly became very beatable.
Fixed

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Old
11-02-2008, 06:52 PM
  #82
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O'B is still Raw, and we forget that. He needs time to develop like any player, just because hes trying to break in his new found position as a Hab we have to nit pick at him. Yeah hes a noob on Defense for now, but he's 6'5 with alot of potential. If its not O'Byrne we are picking on its the next guy.

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Old
11-02-2008, 06:53 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
I realize that.... I'm not advocating getting rid of him for nothing or dumping him in the pressbox... I just don't think his upside is as great.

There is a reason Komi had 100 extra games at that point... he was a better D than O'byrne at a younger age; so people saying look where Komi was at the same age are wrong.

If you want to say they look similar with the same number of NHL games played... I'll accept that. i think O'byrne can grow in a way that is similar to what happened with Komi as he plays more games, i just don't think he will be as good as Komi as a finished product. Nothing wrong with that, Komi is pretty great. If O'byrne can eventually be a steady number 4 i'm fine with that... I won't be upset that he isn't as good as Komisarek.

I still stand by my earlier point... i'd rather see O'byrne making mistakes and learning on our blue line than watch breezer back there making the same mistakes he was making 10-15 years ago.
The Habs are a strong enough team to be able to afford having O'Byrne play at least semi-regularly. They don't expect as much from him as they do from their top 3. He's improving, although not at the same rate in every area. Once in a while he makes a play worthy of a veteran, which is a good sign. Also, his size and reach are nice things to have.

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11-02-2008, 07:53 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Corey View Post
The Habs are a strong enough team to be able to afford having O'Byrne play at least semi-regularly. They don't expect as much from him as they do from their top 3. He's improving, although not at the same rate in every area. Once in a while he makes a play worthy of a veteran, which is a good sign. Also, his size and reach are nice things to have.
Sums up anything I was going to add. Let O'B play more games than not and see how it goes. If he progresses even to the point of becoming a reliable 5/6 guy, we're ahead.

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11-02-2008, 08:01 PM
  #85
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Don't see any topic of discussion with O'Byrne, really. Coming into this season, I didn't like him. Thought he was clumsy, Popovicesque with better skating, and too reactionary.

Now I like his play around and behind the net, appreciate his skating and see he's got potential to be able to move the puck. And he works hard.

He needs to calm down on the ice, not run around so much, and keep some fundamentals in mind. Also needs to stop using his free hand.

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11-02-2008, 08:20 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
GTFO here. If Pittsburgh had Hossa since the beginning of the season, we wouldn't be anywhere near their ES production. Not to mention the fact that they lost Crosby for a considerable amount of time.
Make excuses for Pittsburgh all you want but 9th place in 5-on-5 situations means we were better than 21 teams including some 100+ point teams. Regarding the attitude, why don't you use some stats instead of lazy arguments like.....

Quote:
The PP was our bread and butter last year. There's no denying that. We finished where we finished because that PP was #1. Once that was shutdown, we suddenly became very beatable.
As I mentioned earlier, a whole lot more than just our PP went south in the playoffs last year. If our PP kept going at it's regular season pace in the playoffs, we still wouldn't have got by Philly with the shoddy defense and goaltending we got against Philly....two areas that were also strong (like our PP) during the regular season.

Quote:
This year with the acquisitions, we addressed a need. ES scoring. Even with a 19th ranked PP, low and behold, we're still ahead of the pack. Where do you think we would have been had our PP been 19th last season?
You're contradicting the point you made earlier, you said just like last year we live and die by the PP. I guess some people like to argue so much that they even argue with themselves.

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11-02-2008, 08:22 PM
  #87
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Just an idea:

I was discussing it on the Avs boards. They need help on G badly, they don't have any future at this position (some will say that they don't have any present). I had the idea that we could trade Halak in a deal that would send Wolski to the Habs.

Halak and 3rd for Wolski
or
Halak and Fischer for Wolski+

Then, you look around and you put Latendresse and O'Byrne on the market for a legit top 4 d-man (cheap and "young" for salary concerns). Anyway, Bégin or Dandy could be traded or waived.

We would get an upgrade over Latendresse since Wolski has the potential to be a 1st line LW. The potential of Latendresse is also pretty good but let's face it, Wolski is a better player now and for the future. We would also get an upgrade over O'Byrne since I think that a package of Lats and O'B could get us a nice return.

Just and idea like that. It could be easier to fit under the cap than Sundin, Gaborik or Kovalchuk!

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11-02-2008, 08:25 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Just an idea:

I was discussing it on the Avs boards. They need help on G badly, they don't have any future at this position (some will say that they don't have any present). I had the idea that we could trade Halak in a deal that would send Wolski to the Habs.

Halak and 3rd for Wolski
or
Halak and Fischer for Wolski+

Then, you look around and you put Latendresse and O'Byrne on the market for a legit top 4 d-man (cheap and "young" for salary concerns). Anyway, Bégin or Dandy could be traded or waived.

We would get an upgrade over Latendresse since Wolski has the potential to be a 1st line LW. The potential of Latendresse is also pretty good but let's face it, Wolski is a better player now and for the future. We would also get an upgrade over O'Byrne since I think that a package of Lats and O'B could get us a nice return.

Just and idea like that. It could be easier to fit under the cap than Sundin, Gaborik or Kovalchuk!
Whose your backup goalie if Price gets injured?

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11-02-2008, 08:37 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Whose your backup goalie if Price gets injured?
Try Denis as the backup and if there's a problem, the market for a veteran G is pretty cheap. I don't see any problem at that level.

What happens if Brodeur gets injured? And what about Luongo?

If we can get a young guy like Wolski in a deal for Halak, I think that BG should go for it.

Again, like I said, it's just an idea.

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11-02-2008, 08:43 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Schooner Guy View Post
Make excuses for Pittsburgh all you want but 9th place in 5-on-5 situations means we were better than 21 teams including some 100+ point teams. Regarding the attitude, why don't you use some stats instead of lazy arguments like.....
What excuses? Are you seriously going to try and convince me that Hossa made no impact in their ES production? That Crosby's absence didn't hurt their offense? Please enlighten me with an answer.

Quote:
As I mentioned earlier, a whole lot more than just our PP went south in the playoffs last year. If our PP kept going at it's regular season pace in the playoffs, we still wouldn't have got by Philly with the shoddy defense and goaltending we got against Philly....two areas that were also strong (like our PP) during the regular season.
The games we lost were by 2 goals or less. Converting on those PPs would have made a MONUMENTAL difference. Confidence, pace, momentum, there are other aspects of the game than your basic "offense-defense-goaltending" understanding. It all comes into play.

Quote:
You're contradicting the point you made earlier, you said just like last year we live and die by the PP. I guess some people like to argue so much that they even argue with themselves.
Maybe you should read posts within context. Try to keep up. When I said "Just like last year", I was referring to a need that wasn't addressed to go deep in the playoffs which was ES scoring. This year our need is a top 4 D. I was trying to make a parallel but obviously, you couldn't keep up.

If you don't agree with the obvious fact that our #1 PP last year contributed immensely to our success then I might as well just argue with a tree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Try Denis as the backup and if there's a problem, the market for a veteran G is pretty cheap. I don't see any problem at that level.

What happens if Brodeur gets injured? And what about Luongo?

If we can get a young guy like Wolski in a deal for Halak, I think that BG should go for it.

Again, like I said, it's just an idea.
I know what you mean, I just think our forwards are doing just fine. Then there's the problem of looking for a reliable veteran G. In my opinion, its too much of a side-way move that BG was referring to last year. Plus there's team chemistry you have to take into account, stability, etc.


Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-02-2008 at 08:51 PM.
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Old
11-02-2008, 10:06 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by 79 André Marcoux View Post
Just an idea:

I was discussing it on the Avs boards. They need help on G badly, they don't have any future at this position (some will say that they don't have any present). I had the idea that we could trade Halak in a deal that would send Wolski to the Habs.

Halak and 3rd for Wolski
or
Halak and Fischer for Wolski+

Then, you look around and you put Latendresse and O'Byrne on the market for a legit top 4 d-man (cheap and "young" for salary concerns). Anyway, Bégin or Dandy could be traded or waived.

We would get an upgrade over Latendresse since Wolski has the potential to be a 1st line LW. The potential of Latendresse is also pretty good but let's face it, Wolski is a better player now and for the future. We would also get an upgrade over O'Byrne since I think that a package of Lats and O'B could get us a nice return.

Just and idea like that. It could be easier to fit under the cap than Sundin, Gaborik or Kovalchuk!
First, no way Colorado does that.

Second, Montreal has no need for another winger. What would happen, Latendresse goes to the fourth line?

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Old
11-02-2008, 10:26 PM
  #92
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And frankly Komi doesn't look nearly as scary as he used to. It looks like Komi got shrunk in the 17 th sequel of a Rick Moranis movie.
"Honey, I Shrunk The Komi"

You're right, he doesn't look as dangerous out there so far. But, he has 40 hits (4th in NHL) and 39 blocked shots (1st in NHL) so smaller or not, he's been effective.

Also, the new NHL.com stats engine is way better!

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11-03-2008, 12:45 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
GTFO here. If Pittsburgh had Hossa since the beginning of the season, we wouldn't be anywhere near their ES production. Not to mention the fact that they lost Crosby for a considerable amount of time.
With all do fairness, when they lost Crosby, Malkin became a beast.
I don't think he would have had that much of an impact if Crosby hadn't become injured.
We here it all the time, when key players get injured, others have to rise.

I don't think they would have doubled the production they had if Crosby would have been there.
If Hossa was there from the beginning though, then probably. But that's just useless since he wasn't there.

I know that was beyond the point, but I just wanted to bring that up since I keep hearing ''imagine if Crosby hadn't been injured last year''..I also hear about the Fleury injury, but for some reason they keep forgetting how amazing Conklin played in that span. Probably held a better record than Fleury would have too.

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11-03-2008, 03:58 AM
  #94
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I know it's frustrating to watch a guy of size not nailing guys to the boards (ALA Robinson) But I did see him dish out out a couple on Sat night vs Long Island. Give him a little more time.

I do think we should trade for a 4th D-Man in this Centennial Season, but I wouldn't add O'Byrne to any deal, not just yet...In future I think this guy will be able to be a Kommie clone, Anybody here who has played defense in hockey in the past knows that you work on your D then then step up to use your size & hopefully develop a skill if you have one, or show some potential...he's young & still a rookie, I'm sure if we put him on the block 29 other teams would want him.

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11-03-2008, 06:19 AM
  #95
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In future I think this guy will be able to be a Kommie clone
I keep hearing this, and it just confuses me. Why should we have a Komi clone? Shouldn't we want a guy who brings something else to the table?

I like Josh Gorges too, but I don't see what either guy brings that isn't replaceable. I also don't see how they are going to keep spots when 1) Ryan McDonaugh is ready, 2) Emelin finally decides to come to the NHL and 3) PK Subban is ready. There is also always the opportunity for David Fischer, after some disappointing years due to bad health, getting his weight back up and showing himself as a Top 20 Prospect again. I just don't see how those guys are that vital to the growth of our team. They are very replaceable, and if getting a Top 4 D-man for a Cup run means we don't have a developing, hulk of a D-man until Ryan McDonaugh is ready, or Alexei Emelin is ready, or hey, even Matthew Carle, I don't see the real issue.

I also don't see where "shot blocking machine" is in Ryan O'Byrne, which is a huge facet of Komisarek's game. I think "Komi clone" is just a buzz word for people who want to keep him around.

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11-03-2008, 07:19 AM
  #96
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now I like his play around and behind the net, appreciate his skating and see he's got potential to be able to move the puck. And he works hard.

He needs to calm down on the ice, not run around so much, and keep some fundamentals in mind. Also needs to stop using his free hand.
Couldn't agree more Mike, as for him runnning around so much, it's not a big suprise in a way as it's more of a product of the NCAA imo, as you'll often see more scrambled play with D running around too much.

Now that he's entering his 3rd year as a pro he needs to work through this, so hopefully the coaching staff works with although I have always wondered if the Habs wouldn't be better sereved with a different D coach, not saying they need to get Larry Robinson but I do wonder if it help to have a former defensemen working with the D instead of a coaching staff that's all former forwards and a former goalie. Just a thought, especially when we start to develop more D prospects in a few years as guys like McDonagh, Subban, Weber, Carle etc... reach the NHL (not saying they all will with us)

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11-03-2008, 07:28 AM
  #97
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Quote:
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I keep hearing this, and it just confuses me. Why should we have a Komi clone? Shouldn't we want a guy who brings something else to the table?
.

This is valid & I can understand your concerns...I'm still relativly young & am learning to coach in Baseball(different sport, but people are the same tactic), I like to think I can see potential. he has the size & capability to improve, & yes I do see him in a Komi Mold & think that he as the right tools, & can be molded with the right attitude. Sometime people are a project & need to be directed towards passion, then again when you get lucky every 100 years & get a guy like Robinson, then there is no project, theres not a lot of guys like that & it's unfortunate...

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11-03-2008, 07:30 AM
  #98
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I keep hearing this, and it just confuses me. Why should we have a Komi clone? Shouldn't we want a guy who brings something else to the table?

I like Josh Gorges too, but I don't see what either guy brings that isn't replaceable. I also don't see how they are going to keep spots when 1) Ryan McDonaugh is ready, 2) Emelin finally decides to come to the NHL and 3) PK Subban is ready. There is also always the opportunity for David Fischer, after some disappointing years due to bad health, getting his weight back up and showing himself as a Top 20 Prospect again. I just don't see how those guys are that vital to the growth of our team. They are very replaceable, and if getting a Top 4 D-man for a Cup run means we don't have a developing, hulk of a D-man until Ryan McDonaugh is ready, or Alexei Emelin is ready, or hey, even Matthew Carle, I don't see the real issue.

I also don't see where "shot blocking machine" is in Ryan O'Byrne, which is a huge facet of Komisarek's game. I think "Komi clone" is just a buzz word for people who want to keep him around.
I don't think O'B is a Komi clone but I do think they play similiar styles although we aren't really seeing it from O'B yet at the nhl level, as he hasn't really shown his physical game yet which is a main part of his game imo, which is why I think he has a lot more upside then he's shown, which he better have a lot more upside from what he's shown at the nhl level or else he will have a hard time sticking in the long run.

Both are big boys that skate well for their size and can bring the pain, Komi has really developed the shot blocking aspect, whereas O'B looks like he's still not even comfortable out there.

As to why people would want a Komi clone should be easy enough to understand, he's one of our top D and a fan favorite, for a team that has lacked toughness for years, and been called smurfs for as long, it's nice to see two towers of power even if one of the towers isn't showing much power yet.

I do agree though, O'B and Gorges are replacable, if the price is right, I wouldn't be surprised if Gainey looked to move one or both down the road if he feels he can improve the team, although the concern is that out of all the nice D prospects we now have, at this point we don't really have anyone that can step in right away like say Chipchura among the forwards who if we need someone to fill in among our forwards I feel confident in him, whereas I wouldn't feel the same way if we had to go to Carle or Weber this year as a regular player, so that means Gainey would need to replace said Gorges/O'B with an established NHLer and I would think that other GM's would be aware of this.

Either way I have faith in Gainey and I still think O'B can turn into a very solid bottom pairing D for us, although I expect it's going to take a couple years and there's going to be some serious growing pains but hopefully it pays off down the road.

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11-03-2008, 09:02 AM
  #99
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So O'Byrne is our 6/7th D-man. There is a reason. Because he's not as good as our 1-5 D-men defensively, offensively, intangibles, hockey sense, skating, whatever.

It's non-sensical to blast your 6th defenseman. You can't have a team full of top paring defense. Having lowly paid, average players as part of your team is essential.

In 8 games he's played so far, we are 7-0-1 and he a +0 in plus minus. Yet somehow O'BYRNE is our biggest problem?

It's laughable really. It makes absolutely no sense. Let's just get rid of a 6'6", 24 year old who is a career +7 in 41 games because he's not as good at Komi or Markov.

How did Gorges end up here? Because San Jose got impatient with him and pretty much dumped him for nothing. How did Beauchemin find his way out of town? How about Robidas? Right... we were impatient and we let young, developing players go for nothing.

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11-03-2008, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike8 View Post
Don't see any topic of discussion with O'Byrne, really. Coming into this season, I didn't like him. Thought he was clumsy, Popovicesque with better skating, and too reactionary.

Now I like his play around and behind the net, appreciate his skating and see he's got potential to be able to move the puck. And he works hard.

He needs to calm down on the ice, not run around so much, and keep some fundamentals in mind. Also needs to stop using his free hand.
Agreed...I think he got used to doing that in the NCAA/AHL where he's strong enough to use that free hand and stop players in their tracks, in the NHL, even guys like Chad Larose make him pay for doing that. He's got to learn to defer more to Hamrlik, just like Komisarek did when he got paired up with Markov.

O'Byrne tries to do too much...I don't know why everyone is so keen on sending him down or trading him, I think the Habs are strong enough to play around his weaknesses, hoping that by x-mas he'll be better for it

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