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Old
11-03-2008, 11:40 AM
  #26
Jag68Sid87
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Oooh, it would be tempting to get rid of Sydor right away...


But nah.

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11-03-2008, 11:41 AM
  #27
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I like Kronwall, so I don't really have anything bad to say about this proposal. That said, Shero wouldn't do it.

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11-03-2008, 11:41 AM
  #28
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Malkin proposals are like watching a villiage idiots convention. The arguments have already been made, younger, better, and not anywhere close to his prime. I would say throw in Henrik Zetterberg and we would listen, but not really. That is the thing, how would we fit them both under the cap even if it was offered anyways? If the urge to make a proposal in it with Malkin in it ovecomes you, please walk away from the keyboard. None of them would ever work. A bunch of parts do not make up for losing the better player in the long run and even if you do offer to overpay the Cap will not allow it. You and I both know hell would freeze over before any of these become a reality.

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11-03-2008, 11:43 AM
  #29
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This may be stupid but I think I would rather have Datsyuk than Malkin.

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11-03-2008, 11:43 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Malkin proposals are like watching a villiage idiots convention. The arguments have already been made, younger, better, and not anywhere close to his prime. I would say throw in Henrik Zetterberg and we would listen, but not really. That is the thing, how would we fit them both under the cap even if it was offered anyways? If the urge to make a proposal in it with Malkin in it ovecomes you, please walk away from the keyboard. You and I both know hell would freeze over before any of these become a reality.
To think anyone would want to get rid of Datsyuk and Zetterberg together for Malkin is a joke.

Malkin is a great player, but he isn't two.

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11-03-2008, 11:46 AM
  #31
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Until Malkin can prove he can play a full season + playoffs he isn't worth two players.

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11-03-2008, 11:49 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Fearsome Beaver View Post
Until Malkin can prove he can play a full season + playoffs he isn't worth two players.
Well he proved last year he can play a full season + 3 playoff series. Considering he was 21, I think we can all agree his play in the finals against Detroit was an exception, not the norm.

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11-03-2008, 11:51 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
To think anyone would want to get rid of Datsyuk and Zetterberg together for Malkin is a joke.

Malkin is a great player, but he isn't two.


I did not make the offer. Pens' fans rarely do. I also did not say that Detroit should trade both for Malkin, merely that it would take a huge overpay to even make Shero listen, and even then, as in my example, he could not afford to keep both under the cap system anyways along with what we already have without losing a lot elsewhere. Basically I am saying that these proposals will never bear fruit absent Malkin making it obvious that he will not resign with the Pens, and that will be near 2013 when Pavel Datsyuk will be close to recieving social security. OK, he will be 35 years old, but in hockey years that is pretty close to social security eligible.

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11-03-2008, 11:53 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
Well he proved last year he can play a full season + 3 playoff series. Considering he was 21, I think we can all agree his play in the finals against Detroit was an exception, not the norm.
If you cant get up for the Stanley Cup finals at 18 let alone 21 you have no place in the NHL.

Frankly him sucking in the finals had less to do with his ability and more to do with Dats/Zets and the wings defense make him look like an amatuer. Its one thing to rack up points in the east its another thing to get your ass handed to you by two superior Centers (zets and dats) who are both the full package.

Malkin as of yet is still one dimensional and Dats/Zetts are more valueable to any team today. Not saying they have higher trade value then Malkin but they are better players currently. Switch Malkin with Zetts and or Dats and the cup finals woulda been quite a bit closer imo. Hell make this trade and I think Pens win the cup.. This trade being Kronwall+Dats for Malkin

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11-03-2008, 11:55 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post


I did not make the offer. Pens' fans rarely do. I also did not say that Detroit should trade both for Malkin, merely that it would take a huge overpay to even make Shero listen, and even then, as in my example, he could not afford to keep both under the cap system anyways along with what we already have without losing a lot elsewhere. Basically I am saying that these proposals will never bear fruit absent Malkin making it obvious that he will not resign with the Pens, and that will be near 2013 when Pavel Datsyuk will be close to recieving social security. OK, he will be 35 years old, but in hockey years that is pretty close to social security eligible.
Ahhhh alright I got ya.

Either way I think the style of play they both have differs too much for them to be a great asset on either team, and Datsyuk is, like I said before, an icon for Red Wings hockey right now.

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11-03-2008, 11:58 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
If you cant get up for the Stanley Cup finals at 18 let alone 21 you have no place in the NHL.

Frankly him sucking in the finals had less to do with his ability and more to do with Dats/Zets and the wings defense make him look like an amatuer. Its one thing to rack up points in the east its another thing to get your ass handed to you by two superior Centers (zets and dats) who are both the full package.

Malkin as of yet is still one dimensional and are more valueable to any team today. Not saying they have higher trade value then Malkin but they are better players currently.
So your first point was claiming Malkin wasn't effective because he didn't "get up" for the finals and your next point claimed Malkin wasn't effective because Detroit's centers (who played on the same line making one of them a center) shut him down and made him look like an amateur.

Which is it? More importantly, did Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, etc not contribute to shutting down Malkin? It was just those superior centers doing all the heavy lifting, right?

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11-03-2008, 12:00 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
So your first point was claiming Malkin wasn't effective because he didn't "get up" for the finals and your next point claimed Malkin wasn't effective because Detroit's centers (who played on the same line making one of them a center) shut him down and made him look like an amateur.

Which is it? More importantly, did Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, etc not contribute to shutting down Malkin? It was just those superior centers doing all the heavy lifting, right?
He did mention the Wings defense if you didn't see that part...just no names.

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11-03-2008, 12:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackie Treehorn View Post
So your first point was claiming Malkin wasn't effective because he didn't "get up" for the finals and your next point claimed Malkin wasn't effective because Detroit's centers (who played on the same line making one of them a center) shut him down and made him look like an amateur.

Which is it? More importantly, did Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronwall, Stuart, etc not contribute to shutting down Malkin? It was just those superior centers doing all the heavy lifting, right?
My opinion is the second. The first was exposing how ridiculous ur opinion was as it made no sense .

Players shouldnt run out of gas at the biggest stage in fact they should find an extra gear and some extra gas in the tank. Im not trashing malking hes a great player. So is Dats.


Last edited by solo16: 11-03-2008 at 12:08 PM.
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11-03-2008, 12:04 PM
  #39
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My statement really makes me chuckle because its getting to the point where Pens fans choose pride over cups wins.

If Kronwall (our best defensmen in the finals) and Dats traded sweaters with Sydor and Malkin last year Pit would have been closer to winning the cup. Thats really the bottom line. Make this trade this year they have a better chance to win the cup. That will be the answer for at least the next 3 years.


The trade value is fair and I think Shero would take it in a second. If he didnt I think Mario would slap him and say get me a fing cup... This is dollars and sense not pride.

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11-03-2008, 12:08 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
My opinion is the second. The first was exposing how stupid ur opinion was as it made no sense .

Players shouldnt run out of gas at the biggest stage in fact they should find an extra gear and some extra gas in the tank. Im not trashing malking hes a great player. So is Dats.
I get where this whole tangential line is going, and in fact is not actually tangential but is the real point of this and similar threads, as no one in their right mind thinks that Malkin is likely to be traded at all any time soon. Especially not for a forward, however good, that is in his 30's and a, face it, throw in. The real point as far as I can see is some 'my player is as good as/better than yours and should get more recognition' contest as far as I can see.

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11-03-2008, 12:09 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
The trade value is fair and I think Shero would take it in a second. If he didnt I think Mario would slap him and say get me a fing cup... This is dollars and sense not pride.
you keep telling yourself that. malkin is as untouchable as crosby and ovechkin.

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11-03-2008, 12:13 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
My statement really makes me chuckle because its getting to the point where Pens fans choose pride over cups wins.

If Kronwall (our best defensmen in the finals) and Dats traded sweaters with Sydor and Malkin last year Pit would have been closer to winning the cup. Thats really the bottom line. Make this trade this year they have a better chance to win the cup. That will be the answer for at least the next 3 years.


The trade value is fair and I think Shero would take it in a second. If he didnt I think Mario would slap him and say get me a fing cup... This is dollars and sense not pride.
I would bet anything you are wrong. No way to prove it of course, but trade a 21 year old who already has almost won a scoring title and currently leads the NHL in scoring for a 30 year old who averaged 20 goals and 42 assists over his career on a team that always had talent around him? Heh.

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11-03-2008, 12:13 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
My statement really makes me chuckle because its getting to the point where Pens fans choose pride over cups wins.

If Kronwall (our best defensmen in the finals) and Dats traded sweaters with Sydor and Malkin last year Pit would have been closer to winning the cup. Thats really the bottom line. Make this trade this year they have a better chance to win the cup. That will be the answer for at least the next 3 years.


The trade value is fair and I think Shero would take it in a second. If he didnt I think Mario would slap him and say get me a fing cup... This is dollars and sense not pride.
Yes, the value is fair. This year. Not for the next 12+ years. And if the trade is so "fair," why would Shero take it in a second. A GM would only take a trade "in a second" if there was massive overpayment coming.

Not to mention the little thing called "salary cap" which renders this proposal impossible for the Pens.

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11-03-2008, 12:21 PM
  #44
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you keep telling yourself that. malkin is as untouchable as crosby and ovechkin.
As weird as this may sound to non-pens fans, it is 100% true. It doesn't mean that Malkin is the 3rd best player in the league, or is even better than some players that may be traded. What it means is that his potential is so astronomically high, and his production has been so impressive so far, that moving him for ANYONE would be nearly impossible.

I think Shero would have a hard time trading Malkin for even Ovechkin straight up. It's not that Ovechkin isn't better, because he is, but it wouldn't be enough of a gain to trade him away, especially when you think of Malkin filling into his frame and becoming a physical freak like Ovechkin already is.

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11-03-2008, 12:25 PM
  #45
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Maybe its just me, but I'd rather have a 90 point, elite two way center, Selke trophy winner, over a 110(ish) point forward who isn't even close as responsible as defensively. Again, thats just my personal opinion.

Also, Kronwall>>>Sydor.

I don't think its in the interest of either teams, which has been said. I do realize however, that this is a "is it equal value" thread, so I will say that it is close, though again, I have little doubt that it will never happen.

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11-03-2008, 12:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by SCUDeriMISSILE View Post
Yes, the value is fair. This year. Not for the next 12+ years. And if the trade is so "fair," why would Shero take it in a second. A GM would only take a trade "in a second" if there was massive overpayment coming.

Not to mention the little thing called "salary cap" which renders this proposal impossible for the Pens.
Salary cap is minor imo. Dats is signed at 6.7M and Kronwall at 3M. I think they could find a way considering Malkins salary (does that start this year or next?) Maybe ur talkin about this year then ur right if malkins salary starts next year.

I only think hed take it in a second because it makes his team have a better chance to win the cup for at least the next few years 3-5yrs. Sure maybe not 12 years down the road. At some point Pens fans have to stop worrying about the super long term and start woring about the recent future. Pens are positioning for a window of dynasty opportunity. I geuss they have to decied if they want that window to start in 5 years or sooner.

Crosby is in his prime as far as im concerned (crazy considering how young he is, he will have a long prime it seems) Might as well start using it like last year.

If youd like we can revisit this in June again and talk about all the reasons the Pens just werent good enough to win the cup. Hell we can say the same next year. Then we can begin to wonder why they have so much talent but just cant pull it together. Dats is a winner. Malkin hasnt matured to the level to show he can make personal sacrifices for the team to win. I think of Steve Yzerman pre Scotty Bowman when i think of Malkin. All the talent and personal records in the world but he doesnt get that cup till he gives it all up and plays defense like Dats already does.

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11-03-2008, 12:26 PM
  #47
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It would be a step backwards for both teams, as fans of each have already pointed out. So, as a Devils fan married to a lifelong Red Wings fan, I think the trade should go down as soon as possible.

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11-03-2008, 12:27 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
I get where this whole tangential line is going, and in fact is not actually tangential but is the real point of this and similar threads, as no one in their right mind thinks that Malkin is likely to be traded at all any time soon. Especially not for a forward, however good, that is in his 30's and a, face it, throw in. The real point as far as I can see is some 'my player is as good as/better than yours and should get more recognition' contest as far as I can see.
I can see your point on Datsyuk but I think calling Kronwall a throw in is seriously undervaluing him. He'd probably be at worst your 2nd best overall defenseman and I doubt he'd average less than the 20+ minutes per night he gets in Detroit. He's just entering his prime years as well so he definitely has some value.

My original thoughts were to offer Zetterberg instead of Datsyuk but I assumed that trading Malkin for an upcoming UFA would be a dumb proposal. The main reason Shero would consider this trade I think is that while Malkin is a better offensive players and could develop into a two-way stud one day, adding someome who already is a two-way stud while bolstering the defense with a strong two-way guy who moves the puck well I feel would make Pittsburgh much closer to winning it all than they would be otherwise. Veteran championship experience, especially in core players, does have a value despite what some might feel.

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11-03-2008, 12:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by SCUDeriMISSILE View Post
As weird as this may sound to non-pens fans, it is 100% true. It doesn't mean that Malkin is the 3rd best player in the league, or is even better than some players that may be traded. What it means is that his potential is so astronomically high, and his production has been so impressive so far, that moving him for ANYONE would be nearly impossible.

I think Shero would have a hard time trading Malkin for even Ovechkin straight up. It's not that Ovechkin isn't better, because he is, but it wouldn't be enough of a gain to trade him away, especially when you think of Malkin filling into his frame and becoming a physical freak like Ovechkin already is.
Ovechkin is the only player in the league (outside of Crosby of course, who we already have so is not a factor in this discussion) who I would trade Malkin for. Only because of his long term deal that will be a bargain soon enough. To be honest bargain contract issues aside, Malkin is at least as good as Ovechkin right now and has a higher upside in my book, and is a center to boot which is always more valuable than a wing all other factors being equal. But that sweet contract would make me overlook all of that.

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11-03-2008, 12:31 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
I can see your point on Datsyuk but I think calling Kronwall a throw in is seriously undervaluing him. He'd probably be at worst your 2nd best overall defenseman and I doubt he'd average less than the 20+ minutes per night he gets in Detroit. He's just entering his prime years as well so he definitely has some value.

My original thoughts were to offer Zetterberg instead of Datsyuk but I assumed that trading Malkin for an upcoming UFA would be a dumb proposal. The main reason Shero would consider this trade I think is that while Malkin is a better offensive players and could develop into a two-way stud one day, adding someome who already is a two-way stud while bolstering the defense with a strong two-way guy who moves the puck well I feel would make Pittsburgh much closer to winning it all than they would be otherwise. Veteran championship experience, especially in core players, does have a value despite what some might feel.
By throw in, I mean that almost every team has players of his calibre on it and that players like him have value but are not that hard to come by. He certainly has value but is nothing all that special and does not add much to basically a Malkin for Datsyuk proposal that could not be had in many ways elsewhere.

Bt the way, the Pens are currently sixth in the league in GAA. With Gonchar and Whitney out of the lineup. And Detroit is currently 22nd (Heh). Pretty much proving my point. Kronwell our second best defenseman? I have real doubts about that. In any event, he is a part that is nothing more special than a lot of players in the league as I said.


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