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DET - PIT Trade

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Old
11-03-2008, 12:35 PM
  #51
SCUDeriMISSILE
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
Salary cap is minor imo. Dats is signed at 6.7M and Kronwall at 3M. I think they could find a way considering Malkins salary (does that start this year or next?) Maybe ur talkin about this year then ur right if malkins salary starts next year.

I only think hed take it in a second because it makes his team have a better chance to win the cup for at least the next few years 3-5yrs. Sure maybe not 12 years down the road. At some point Pens fans have to stop worrying about the super long term and start woring about the recent future. Pens are positioning for a window of dynasty opportunity. I geuss they have to decied if they want that window to start in 5 years or sooner.

Crosby is in his prime as far as im concerned (crazy considering how young he is, he will have a long prime it seems) Might as well start using it like last year.

If youd like we can revisit this in June again and talk about all the reasons the Pens just werent good enough to win the cup. Hell we can say the same next year. Then we can begin to wonder why they have so much talent but just cant pull it together. Dats is a winner. Malkin hasnt matured to the level to show he can make personal sacrifices for the team to win. I think of Steve Yzerman pre Scotty Bowman when i think of Malkin. All the talent and personal records in the world but he doesnt get that cup till he gives it all up and plays defense like Dats already does.
I was talking about the salary cap this year, and you're right if this were to happen in the off-season, the pens would be fine salary cap wise im sure.

I don't think Datsyuk gives the Pens any better chance of winning a cup in the next 5years than Malkin. Factoring in Kronwall doesn't mean too much as he'd be a second pairing guy here and defensive help isn't a need at all.

Malkin is better (albeit not by much) offensively, and more than adequate defensively. We have a shutdown center in Staal, and Crosby is well above average defensively as well.

I understand where you're coming from and why you feel the way you do since your team has won cups recently, but to me, having Malkin ensures us cup opportunities for at least the next 12 years (if he still wants to be here). Keeping Malkin over Datsyuk and Kronwall, imo, does not decrease our chances for the cup in the short term.

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11-03-2008, 12:39 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
If you cant get up for the Stanley Cup finals at 18 let alone 21 you have no place in the NHL.
Not much need to comment on the trade, as there is no reason for either team to do it, much like 98% of the proposals that pop up on here. That said, the above statement is hardly fair. Much like a few years ago when "experts" were uttering the ridiculous "Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't playoff performers" mantra. How silly does that statement sound now?

Neither team does the trade, and it has nothing to do with Malkin having "no place in the NHL".

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11-03-2008, 12:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Ovechkin is the only player in the league (outside of Crosby of course, who we already have so is not a factor in this discussion) who I would trade Malkin for. Only because of his long term deal that will be a bargain soon enough. To be honest bargain contract issues aside, Malkin is at least as good as Ovechkin right now and has a higher upside in my book, and is a center to boot which is always more valuable than a wing all other factors being equal. But that sweet contract would make me overlook all of that.
I did forget about how nice his contract is. Shero would definitely think long and hard about a Malk for Ovech trade, and i'm not sure he would pull the trigger in the end, especially like you said, contracts were set aside. (even though malkin's contract is pretty penguin friendly as well.)

To me, Malkin looks like he could average 2 points a game in a few years. It seems to me that everything seems so easy to him and i think we've really only seen the tip of the ice"burg."

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11-03-2008, 12:41 PM
  #54
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when you have 2 of the top 3 young players in the world, you hold on to them for dear life. shero would be dumb to give up the pens biggest advantage over other teams.

malkin is 22, datsyuk is 30. making that swap would be s-t-u-p-i-d for the penguins. malkin is already better according to the players themselves and hockey writers. (2nd in pearson and hart voting)

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11-03-2008, 12:44 PM
  #55
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I agree with Fission that Kronwall is underrated here. I dont wanna get too homer but he is better then all the pens defensemen save Gonchar.

Hes not just your run of the mill 2nd pairing defensemen. He is the wings Num 1 defensemen if Lidstrom wasnt here. Being second on the depth chart to Mr. Norris isnt exactly a bad thing.

When you say every team has a Nick Kronwall I question that statement. He is a player somewhat unique. People see his highlight reel hits and think he is a big tough stay at home guy.... This is misleading.

He is actually a top pucking moving defensemen. He plays more in a style of Rafalksi or Nick Lidstrom offensively (with more flair ... hes abit flashy). The hits are sort of a throw in. We like him so much cause he is a premiere Pucking moving defensemen that by some freak of nature chooses to hit like a truck. He has both. Its hard to find a Defensemen he compares with. Statistically hes probably similar to Pronger... but.. hes faster and not as big. (tough defensemen with offensive skill).

In size he is more like a Scott Niedemeyer. But probably not as fast. But hits.

I cant see him being lower then a 3rd defensemen on any team in the league. That team being Ana. Pronger and Scottie> Kronwall.

Hes young and signed cheep. Hes not a throw in he is quite an asset.


Wings fans love him but we are not sold on him being Nick Lidstrom Num 2. Which is why you see hiim coming up in some trade proposals. Hes a great trade chip and we have some young potential coming up that fill a similar role Ericsson, Kindl, Pyett, Smith.

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11-03-2008, 12:46 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Not much need to comment on the trade, as there is no reason for either team to do it, much like 98% of the proposals that pop up on here. That said, the above statement is hardly fair. Much like a few years ago when "experts" were uttering the ridiculous "Datsyuk and Zetterberg aren't playoff performers" mantra. How silly does that statement sound now?

Neither team does the trade, and it has nothing to do with Malkin having "no place in the NHL".
I was just saying it silly to say a player had it for 3 rounds but not the 4th. Players find the extra gear in the finals. If they lost in the 3rd round you could argue this. But not in the finals. Obviously he has a place in the NHL.

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11-03-2008, 12:51 PM
  #57
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I've seen WAY worse Malkin proposals.

Still, hell no from me.

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11-03-2008, 12:52 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I agree with Fission that Kronwall is underrated here. I dont wanna get too homer but he is better then all the pens defensemen save Gonchar.

Hes not just your run of the mill 2nd pairing defensemen. He is the wings Num 1 defensemen if Lidstrom wasnt here. Being second on the depth chart to Mr. Norris isnt exactly a bad thing.

When you say every team has a Nick Kronwall I question that statement. He is a player somewhat unique. People see his highlight reel hits and think he is a big tough stay at home guy.... This is misleading.

He is actually a top pucking moving defensemen. He plays more in a style of Rafalksi or Nick Lidstrom offensively (with more flair ... hes abit flashy). The hits are sort of a throw in. We like him so much cause he is a premiere Pucking moving defensemen that by some freak of nature chooses to hit like a truck. He has both. Its hard to find a Defensemen he compares with. Statistically hes probably similar to Pronger... but.. hes faster and not as big. (tough defensemen with offensive skill).

In size he is more like a Scott Niedemeyer. But probably not as fast. But hits.

I cant see him being lower then a 3rd defensemen on any team in the league. That team being Ana. Pronger and Scottie> Kronwall.

Hes young and signed cheep. Hes not a throw in he is quite an asset.


Wings fans love him but we are not sold on him being Nick Lidstrom Num 2. Which is why you see hiim coming up in some trade proposals. Hes a great trade chip and we have some young potential coming up that fill a similar role Ericsson, Kindl, Pyett, Smith.

Let us just say that I disagree, and that is not knocking Kromwell per se. Gonchar, Whitney, Brooks Orpik, Kristopher Letang, Alex Goligoski. GAA sixth in the NHL, Detroit twenty-second. Which has limited meaning this early, but still, it follows several years now of top ten defenses in the NHL and being among the top defenses in the playoffs. Kromwell would have a hard time pushing his way to second on the depth chart and certainly most teams have players like him in their lineup.

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11-03-2008, 12:55 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Michael Scofield View Post
Im close to saying its a very good trade, perhaps more inclined to say a good start. possibly remove Kronwall and add Filppula.
Or just add Flippula.

That would make this very fair.

Still, Malkin is locked up for 7 more years here, and I have no interest in getting rid of him.

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11-03-2008, 12:56 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Letang58 View Post
Or just add Flippula.

That would make this very fair.

Still, Malkin is locked up for 7 more years here, and I have no interest in getting rid of him.
6 more years.

Typo.

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11-03-2008, 12:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Let us just say that I disagree, and that is not knocking Kromwell per se. Gonchar, Whitney, Brooks Orpik, Kristopher Letang, Alex Goligoski. GAA sixth in the NHL, Detroit twenty-second. Which has limited meaning this early, but still, it follows several years now of top ten defenses in the NHL and being among the top defenses in the playoffs. Kromwell would have a hard time pushing his way to second on the depth chart and certainly most teams have players like him in their lineup.
I geuss they different teams. I mean look at the pens offense with or without Gonchar. Or look at detroit last year when Lids, Kronwall, Rafalski were all injured. They were horrible
With Gonchar Crosby/malkin score more. Without they may be able to play defense better but no one to move the puck up the ice. Kronwall moves the puck up the ice thats sorta his role.

I could be wrong but i believe
Gonchar, Whitney, Letang are offensive defensemen. Dunno if they are better or worse then Kronwall movin the puck up the ice.
The others are serious stay at home guys.

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11-03-2008, 01:01 PM
  #62
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Just a rhetorical question. If Malkin played for say Toronto, they ended up having their off year not last year but in 2004, what would it take to trade for him? He showed that he does not mind being a 1A on the Pens by the long term deal he signed. So why would his playing on a team with Crosby suddenly make him seem more obtainable to some of you?

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11-03-2008, 01:02 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
If you cant get up for the Stanley Cup finals at 18 let alone 21 you have no place in the NHL.

Frankly him sucking in the finals had less to do with his ability and more to do with Dats/Zets and the wings defense make him look like an amatuer. Its one thing to rack up points in the east its another thing to get your ass handed to you by two superior Centers (zets and dats) who are both the full package.

Malkin as of yet is still one dimensional and Dats/Zetts are more valueable to any team today. Not saying they have higher trade value then Malkin but they are better players currently. Switch Malkin with Zetts and or Dats and the cup finals woulda been quite a bit closer imo. Hell make this trade and I think Pens win the cup.. This trade being Kronwall+Dats for Malkin
Frankly, Malkin's drop-off in play was due in large part to the combined factors of the colossal Richards hit he took in Game 1 vs. Philly and the flu virus he contracted near the end of that series that prevented him from keeping food down when the Pens were playing Detroit.

Detroit's great defense and defensive forwards no doubt played a big role too, but his play had already slipped against Philly. It's ignorant to claim definitively that he "couldn't get up for the Cup Finals" because of some lack of heart or inability to perform against Detroit's top players when you completely disregard the physical duress he was under which had already led him to be virtually neutralized by the Flyers.

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11-03-2008, 01:04 PM
  #64
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Detroit fans saying no to this proposal are you serious? Datsyuk might be elite for a few more years but Malkin's has an extra 8 years ahead of him. Plus to say he wouldn't fit into the system is insane - was he not one of the best 2 way guys in the KHL? Give him 3 years and hed be datsyk plus an extra 15-20 goals a year and likely the best player in the world with that talent around him. Detroit fans should take this and run.

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11-03-2008, 01:05 PM
  #65
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I geuss they different teams. I mean look at the pens offense with or without Gonchar. Or look at detroit last year when Lids, Kronwall, Rafalski were all injured. They were horrible
With Gonchar Crosby/malkin score more. Without they may be able to play defense better but no one to move the puck up the ice. Kronwall moves the puck up the ice thats sorta his role.

I could be wrong but i believe
Gonchar, Whitney, Letang are offensive defensemen. Dunno if they are better or worse then Kronwall movin the puck up the ice.
The others are serious stay at home guys.
Goligoski is anything but a stay-at-home defenseman. Get it together, man.

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11-03-2008, 01:07 PM
  #66
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Goligoski is anything but a stay-at-home defenseman. Get it together, man.
I said i could be wrong... That was more an invitation for a correction. I know very little about Goligoski. That wasnt a statement of fact just a statement of my current understanding.

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11-03-2008, 01:10 PM
  #67
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Detroit fans saying no to this proposal are you serious? Datsyuk might be elite for a few more years but Malkin's has an extra 8 years ahead of him. Plus to say he wouldn't fit into the system is insane - was he not one of the best 2 way guys in the KHL? Give him 3 years and hed be datsyk plus an extra 15-20 goals a year and likely the best player in the world with that talent around him. Detroit fans should take this and run.
I agree tbh I think Detroit would prob throw a pick in to get it done (not a first). But... the reason i said no is Chemsitry/salary structure. The value is there for Detroit but it creates alot of unnecessary headaches for Kenny Holland.

Add a Malkin in at 8.7M and suddenly Zets or Hossa want 8.7M. Franzen? 7M.
The best thing Detroit has going for it atm is players taking discounts to stay with the team.

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11-03-2008, 01:29 PM
  #68
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Detroit would be crazy to do this deal. Malkin is a helluva player, but if you asked me who I'd rather have right now, Datsyuk for sure. He can put up nearly the same type of offensive numbers while playing unreal D. While everyone is so jacked up about the points thing, why not take a look at one of the most underated stats going - give aways vs take aways,

Datsyuk 06/07 GvA 86 TA 107
07/08 GvA 68 TA 144

Malkin 06/07 GvA 69 TA 40
07/08 GvA 76 TA 69

Last year, the next closest guy in take aways was Modano with 86. I suppose I don't have to inform Pens fans how important this stat can be given they saw first hand how hard it is to move the puck out of their own zone in the Finals.

And Kronwall, for as good as he was at jumping up and making big hits, there should be assists on those hits to Datsyuk, because thats the only option he left many Dmen with to get it out of their zone... suicide passes.

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11-03-2008, 01:34 PM
  #69
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Detroit would be crazy to do this deal. Malkin is a helluva player, but if you asked me who I'd rather have right now, Datsyuk for sure. He can put up nearly the same type of offensive numbers while playing unreal D. While everyone is so jacked up about the points thing, why not take a look at one of the most underated stats going - give aways vs take aways,

Datsyuk 06/07 GvA 86 TA 107
07/08 GvA 68 TA 144

Malkin 06/07 GvA 69 TA 40
07/08 GvA 76 TA 69

Last year, the next closest guy in take aways was Modano with 86. I suppose I don't have to inform Pens fans how important this stat can be given they saw first hand how hard it is to move the puck out of their own zone in the Finals.

And Kronwall, for as good as he was at jumping up and making big hits, there should be assists on those hits to Datsyuk, because thats the only option he left many Dmen with to get it out of their zone... suicide passes.
Heh. I wonder why there are not three trade proposals for Datsyuk right now topping the trade boards then? To add to the five hundred or so that have been here in the last couple of years regarding Malkin. Pens' fans are tired of them, but they are an indication of who is coveted more, the 21 year old who leads the league in scoring and has a decade and a half of doing so ahead of him or the 30 year old who averages 20 goals and 42 assists in his seven years in the league. No GM in their right mind would think as you are in the above statement. Including Detroits'.

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11-03-2008, 01:37 PM
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Heh. I wonder why there are not three trade proposals for Datsyuk right now topping the trade boards then? To add to the five hundred or so that have been here in the last couple of years regarding Malkin. Pens' fans are tired of them, but they are an indication of who is coveted more, the 21 year old who leads the league in scoring and has a decade and a half of doing so ahead of him or the 30 year old who averages 20 goals and 42 assists in his seven years in the league. No GM in their right mind would think as you are in the above statement. Including Detroits'.
Whats even funnier Jaded is here are two teams both with two world class Centers.

Why is it people think Malkin can be had yet people dont think Dats or Zets can.

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11-03-2008, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Heh. I wonder why there are not three trade proposals for Datsyuk right now topping the trade boards then? To add to the five hundred or so that have been here in the last couple of years regarding Malkin. Pens' fans are tired of them, but they are an indication of who is coveted more, the 21 year old who leads the league in scoring and has a decade and a half of doing so ahead of him or the 30 year old who averages 20 goals and 42 assists in his seven years in the league. No GM in their right mind would think as you are in the above statement. Including Detroits'.
Do you really need to ask that question? This is HF Boards where:
Potential, Picks, Prospects>>>>>>>>>Stanley Cups

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11-03-2008, 01:39 PM
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Whats even funnier Jaded is here are two teams both with two world class Centers.

Why is it people think Malkin can be had yet people dont think Dats or Zets can.
Do you really believe that people here actually believe that Malkin can be had, or that he is merely being used as a measuring stick in these for fans to try and get attention and adulation to their players who they think should get more? Think on it.

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11-03-2008, 01:44 PM
  #73
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Do you really believe that people here actually believe that Malkin can be had, or that he is merely being used as a measuring stick in these for fans to try and get attention and adulation to their players who they think should get more? Think on it.
I dunno if malkin could be had... But im a guy that suggested we trade Zetterberg last year. Not cause I dont think hes great just I think we could use our assets better. If I was a Pens fan I would probably want Malkin moved. But then again Malkin isnt anywhere near as injury prone as zetterberg. I mean you cant really say Malkin will be overpaid. Whereas if zetts plays 60 games a season he very well could be. Though I think Zetts averages more points per game over the last two years then Malkin. Zetts in many ways is Forsberg 2.0

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11-03-2008, 01:45 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Heh. I wonder why there are not three trade proposals for Datsyuk right now topping the trade boards then? To add to the five hundred or so that have been here in the last couple of years regarding Malkin. Pens' fans are tired of them, but they are an indication of who is coveted more, the 21 year old who leads the league in scoring and has a decade and a half of doing so ahead of him or the 30 year old who averages 20 goals and 42 assists in his seven years in the league. No GM in their right mind would think as you are in the above statement. Including Detroits'.
Yes, because clearly the thoughts of fans are crystal clear reflections of their favourite teams management. Its because this is HF, where people think its a good deal to trade anyone over 30 for some of Crosby's baby batter. As long as Detroit has their current cast, they will always be cup favourites. So to disrupt the team chemistry to add a player that doesn't fit the system as well (not to mention trade away two beauty contracts), just to get younger makes no sense for the Wings. So while you and the rest of HF sit and debate what country would have to be offered to get Malkin, Detroits just gonna keep winning cups if thats allright with you.

PS I'm not even a Wings fan, but I have huge respect for well run organizations and Detroit is the definition. And thats why they would not make this deal.

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11-03-2008, 01:48 PM
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I dunno if malkin could be had... But im a guy that suggested we trade Zetterberg last year. Not cause I dont think hes great just I think we could use our assets better. If I was a Pens fan I would probably want Malkin moved. But then again Malkin isnt anywhere near as injury prone as zetterberg. I mean you cant really say Malkin will be overpaid. Whereas if zetts plays 60 games a season he very well could be. Though I think Zetts averages more points per game over the last two years then Malkin. Zetts in many ways is Forsberg 2.0
You would be hard pressed to find any Pens' fan who would want to move Malkin. You can never make those statements in the 100% form, but as close as you can get that is true. And deep down, most here know that he will not be moved as well. In a way all these proposals are annoying and flattering at the same time. In any event I do not say he will never be moved, if he decided he no longer wanted to be here like Gaborik is basically doing to the Wild now, he will be moved and for likely far less than value. I do think given his attitude until now, including putting his money where his mouth was with a long term deal, that is unlikely but possible. I can say with virtual certaintly that absent that scenerio the Pens would never move him.

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