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DET - PIT Trade

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Old
11-03-2008, 02:39 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by solo16 View Post
I was just saying it silly to say a player had it for 3 rounds but not the 4th. Players find the extra gear in the finals. If they lost in the 3rd round you could argue this. But not in the finals. Obviously he has a place in the NHL.
Yea, I get your point, but statements like that cut both ways.

You can also spin it in Malkin's favor by saying he accomplished much more in the playoffs at his age than Datsyuk or Zetterberg did. Would either of the Redwings' stars have performed better in the finals than Malkin did, at that age? Considering they weren't even in the league at that age, let alone playing in a Cup finals, lends me to believe that the answer to that question is no.

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11-03-2008, 02:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Yea, I get your point, but statements like that cut both ways.

You can also spin it in Malkin's favor by saying he accomplished much more in the playoffs at his age than Datsyuk or Zetterberg did. Would either of the Redwings' stars have performed better in the finals than Malkin did, at that age? Considering they weren't even in the league at that age, let alone playing in a Cup finals, lends me to believe that the answer to that question is no.
It took Datsyuk until he was 27 to do much of anything offensively in the NHL. His first three years he averaged 17 goals and 33 assists. His first couple of years in the NHL, when he was two and three years older than Malkin he averaged only 43 points a year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=1223

When both their careers are over if you bump this thread up people would merely get a good laugh.

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11-03-2008, 03:00 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
It took Datsyuk until he was 27 to do much of anything offensively in the NHL. His first three years he averaged 17 goals and 33 assists. His first couple of years in the NHL, when he was two and three years older than Malkin he averaged only 43 points a year.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/player...?playerId=1223

When both their careers are over if you bump this thread up people would merely get a good laugh.
Yep, that was my point exactly. And I am not trying to put down Datsyuk in any way. He is an elite player in this league, and quite possibly the best all-around forward in the NHL at this time, all things considered.

That said, I would never trade Malkin for him. I'm not even a Penguins fan, nor do I have any special affection for Malkin, but is really scary to think how good he might be at Datsyuk's age, with all of the extra experience.

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11-03-2008, 04:12 PM
  #79
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This actually seems like a pretty balanced trade...but does either Detroit or Pittsburgh really feel the need to do this...neither would have a pressing desire to trade those players for not radically different types of players skillwise.

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11-03-2008, 04:22 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Do you really believe that people here actually believe that Malkin can be had, or that he is merely being used as a measuring stick in these for fans to try and get attention and adulation to their players who they think should get more? Think on it.
Partially true. I doubt anyone feels Malkin could be had in a trade (I know I don't). I used Malkin as someone who is oft debated on this forum to guage a relative value. Consensus seems to be that Detroit would need to throw in another good player to make the trade even on a value level. I couldn't care less whether or not people give Datsyuk or Kronwall extra adulation. Honestly, I wouldn't mind if a few threads for Zetterberg or Franzen (both impending UFAs) popped up as I have a feeling one of them won't be in Detroit next season.

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11-03-2008, 05:17 PM
  #81
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I'll take Datsy and NK over Scrubdor and Malks any day..

I cannot believe the OP is a Wings fan..

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Old
11-03-2008, 05:18 PM
  #82
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All this talk, so stupid. Blah blah blah, Malkin's .PPG, or Datsyuks defense....

What does matter is the wings locked yp the penguins and dominated the finals, because they're the better team. So what is the point to trade your top players?

There isn't one.


I would never trade Datsyuk for that ***** Malkin. Never, no way, and I think just like Holland does.

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11-03-2008, 05:27 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
To think anyone would want to get rid of Datsyuk and Zetterberg together for Malkin is a joke.

Malkin is a great player, but he isn't two.
It was established during the finals that Jaded-Fan is a giant Pens homer with yellow and black glasses.

Seriously, go back and read some of his\her posts.

The value of this trade is roughly even, but neither team pulls the trigger. Datsyuk doesn't fit in Pittsburgh and Malkin definitely doesn't fit in Detroit. If Kronwall played for the Pens with all of their D healthy he would still be on the first pair. Kronwall doesn't get stats because he's lodged behind two of the top 5 offensive d-men in the NHL. With the Pens he would be a force. To be quite honest I don't think Detroit even sniffs this trade as Sydor would be like our 9th d-man and Malkin would end up in Babcock's doghouse by the end of his first game.

The only real deal-breaker in this trade is the fact that Malkin is 5 years younger than Datsyuk. But the fact that Malkin will only outscore Datsyuk by maybe 10-15 points a season while Datsyuk also plays consistently Selke-quality defense against other top lines evens their current value in my eyes. If I want to win now I acquire Datsyuk. If Datsyuk was only played against third and fourth lines and pulled 20-22 minutes while never sniffing the PK he would be a 110 point guy too.

I thought the Datsyuk\Zetterberg vs. Crosby\Malkin issue was resolved pretty effectively during the finals. Crosby did very well but Malkin vanished utterly.

Some people seem to forget that even though Malkin is young and improving, Datsyuk is also improving. His game gets better every year, and it's scary to think that, even in his early 30s, he's still developing and getting better. I don't think the difference between Malkin and Datsyuk will be clear for another 5 years, when Datsyuk is in his mid-late 30s and Malkin is in his absolute prime.


Last edited by Schroedingers Cat: 11-03-2008 at 06:01 PM.
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Old
11-03-2008, 05:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ashenhigh View Post
All this talk, so stupid. Blah blah blah, Malkin's .PPG, or Datsyuks defense....

What does matter is the wings locked yp the penguins and dominated the finals, because they're the better team. So what is the point to trade your top players?

There isn't one.


I would never trade Datsyuk for that ***** Malkin. Never, no way, and I think just like Holland does.
Quite the maverick aren't we

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Old
11-03-2008, 06:16 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ShadowFlyer View Post
Yep, that was my point exactly. And I am not trying to put down Datsyuk in any way. He is an elite player in this league, and quite possibly the best all-around forward in the NHL at this time, all things considered.

That said, I would never trade Malkin for him. I'm not even a Penguins fan, nor do I have any special affection for Malkin, but is really scary to think how good he might be at Datsyuk's age, with all of the extra experience.
Switch players around and it may change. Detroit doesn't rush their players into the NHL. Datsyuk was actually skipped over in the 97 draft because the scouting staff thought he was too small. Also his rookie year was 4 years later.

Also I don't believe that Malkin is going to continue to get more and more points only because he is young and can improve. I can see him maxing around where Thorton did/is but I don't believe he will peak at the same age Datsyuk is just because of the way they came into the NHL.

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Old
11-03-2008, 06:26 PM
  #86
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How about...

Evgeni Malkin
Jordan Staal
1st 09, 3rd 10
for

Henrik Zetterberg
Pavel Datsyuk
2nd rounder 09 (conditional on JStaal resigning)



While that is at least a half decent proposal value wise, Detroit gets fleeced. This is why not all superstar for superstar trades will work. The duo are much more important to Detroit than they would be on the Penguins.

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11-03-2008, 06:30 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by HURAKAN View Post
How about...

Evgeni Malkin
Jordan Staal
1st 09, 3rd 10
for

Henrik Zetterberg
Pavel Datsyuk
2nd rounder 09 (conditional on JStaal resigning)



While that is at least a half decent proposal value wise, Detroit gets fleeced. This is why not all superstar for superstar trades will work. The duo are much more important to Detroit than they would be on the Penguins.

I think you could get more if you give them a 5th rounder.

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11-03-2008, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
I think you could get more if you give them a 5th rounder.
It wasn't an actual proposal... I was just trying to point out that trading superstar for superstar rarely works good for both teams... that's why any superstar or star player will most likely be traded for a prospect or two, high draft pick, top 6 player, and maybe something else.. not another superstar.

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11-03-2008, 06:36 PM
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
I think you could get more if you give them a 5th rounder.
Nah Drafting has gotten too easy for Detroit I heard they only want 7th rounders now.

FYI Jordan Stall is not a superstar anywhere but in the trade forum.

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Old
11-03-2008, 06:38 PM
  #90
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Detroit just won the cup, and people are trying to swap core players from each team?

Even as an Avs fan, I have to side with the Wings folks here. I would take Dats and Zetterberg over Malkin and Staal every time. Not even comparable. I like Dats and Zetterberg as individual players more than Malkin, for all the upside or whatever else you want to associate with Malkin. Detroit works magic with their personnel, period, and they would be crazy to break up their core for anything at this point.

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11-03-2008, 06:42 PM
  #91
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Dump this trade....

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Old
11-03-2008, 06:53 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Switch players around and it may change. Detroit doesn't rush their players into the NHL. Datsyuk was actually skipped over in the 97 draft because the scouting staff thought he was too small. Also his rookie year was 4 years later.

Also I don't believe that Malkin is going to continue to get more and more points only because he is young and can improve. I can see him maxing around where Thorton did/is but I don't believe he will peak at the same age Datsyuk is just because of the way they came into the NHL.
All of the above may end up being true, but it still doesn't change the fact that Malkin is doing things at an age when Datysuk wasn't even in the league. If he had been anywhere close to Malkins' level at that age, he would have been in the NHL.

Now, does this mean Malkin will be a more well-rounded player than Datysuk when he hits 30? Who knows? But the fact remains that Malkin is light years ahead of where Datsyuk was at the same age, regardless of how slowly Detroit brings along prospects.

My point was that its isn't even remotely fair to bring up Malkin's performance in the finals as some sort of "defect" which makes him less of a player than Datsyuk. The same exact things were being said of Pavel and Zetterberg back in the 2006 playoffs, and look how that ended up.

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11-03-2008, 08:19 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
It was established during the finals that Jaded-Fan is a giant Pens homer with yellow and black glasses.

Seriously, go back and read some of his\her posts.

The value of this trade is roughly even, but neither team pulls the trigger. Datsyuk doesn't fit in Pittsburgh and Malkin definitely doesn't fit in Detroit. If Kronwall played for the Pens with all of their D healthy he would still be on the first pair. Kronwall doesn't get stats because he's lodged behind two of the top 5 offensive d-men in the NHL. With the Pens he would be a force. To be quite honest I don't think Detroit even sniffs this trade as Sydor would be like our 9th d-man and Malkin would end up in Babcock's doghouse by the end of his first game.

The only real deal-breaker in this trade is the fact that Malkin is 5 years younger than Datsyuk. But the fact that Malkin will only outscore Datsyuk by maybe 10-15 points a season while Datsyuk also plays consistently Selke-quality defense against other top lines evens their current value in my eyes. If I want to win now I acquire Datsyuk. If Datsyuk was only played against third and fourth lines and pulled 20-22 minutes while never sniffing the PK he would be a 110 point guy too.

I thought the Datsyuk\Zetterberg vs. Crosby\Malkin issue was resolved pretty effectively during the finals. Crosby did very well but Malkin vanished utterly.

Some people seem to forget that even though Malkin is young and improving, Datsyuk is also improving. His game gets better every year, and it's scary to think that, even in his early 30s, he's still developing and getting better. I don't think the difference between Malkin and Datsyuk will be clear for another 5 years, when Datsyuk is in his mid-late 30s and Malkin is in his absolute prime.
Pot meet kettle. It is pretty funny how some can have a well thought out conversation while disagreeing (and at times even agreeing) and some need to name call as if that proves their points and discount the other person's points. Read back or maybe have someone with some reasoning skills (perhaps the Detroit fan who answered me and with whom I had an intelligent discussion on the issue in this thread) read my original post that you referred to and explain it to you, slowly, and maybe you can get the actual meaning. As for my being a homer? Sure, not more than most posting here including you, but yeah, guilty as charged. It does not make me discount the opinions of those who disagree with me though by dismissing them entirely with name calling. But that would involve some effort and ability. It would be nice to see you exhibit either in actually figuring out what my position was in that original post that you dismissed out of hand.

ps, one only has to look back to the finals to see that this technique was pretty par for the course for most Detroit fans, to the point where virtually all pens' fans boycotted the finals talk on the main board because you all were impossible to talk to, mostly because you acted just like you did in this post.

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11-03-2008, 08:59 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
Pot meet kettle. It is pretty funny how some can have a well thought out conversation while disagreeing (and at times even agreeing) and some need to name call as if that proves their points and discount the other person's points. Read back or maybe have someone with some reasoning skills (perhaps the Detroit fan who answered me and with whom I had an intelligent discussion on the issue in this thread) read my original post that you referred to and explain it to you, slowly, and maybe you can get the actual meaning. As for my being a homer? Sure, not more than most posting here including you, but yeah, guilty as charged. It does not make me discount the opinions of those who disagree with me though by dismissing them entirely with name calling. But that would involve some effort and ability. It would be nice to see you exhibit either in actually figuring out what my position was in that original post that you dismissed out of hand.

ps, one only has to look back to the finals to see that this technique was pretty par for the course for most Detroit fans, to the point where virtually all pens' fans boycotted the finals talk on the main board because you all were impossible to talk to, mostly because you acted just like you did in this post.

I personally had / have no issue with Jaded. I thought his contributions to this thread we enjoyable and pretty good even if they are directly at odds with my own opinion. Maybe a bit stubborn but I cant say any one on this board isnt when it comes to discussing trades for a franchise player. I feel we have teetered a line between arguing and discussing that is rarely found. I enjoy any heated argument that avoids becoming a flame war so with that I give Jaded My

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11-03-2008, 09:02 PM
  #95
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I personally had / have no issue with Jaded. I thought his contributions to this thread we enjoyable and pretty good even if they are directly at odds with my own opinion. Maybe a bit stubborn but I cant say any one on this board isnt when it comes to discussing trades for a franchise player. I feel we have teetered a line between arguing and discussing that is rarely found. I enjoy any heated argument that avoids becoming a flame war so with that I give Jaded My
same back at you, and I apologize for my generalization above. Obviously I enjoyed our discussion as well.

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Old
11-03-2008, 10:46 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Schroedingers Cat View Post
The value of this trade is roughly even, but neither team pulls the trigger. Datsyuk doesn't fit in Pittsburgh and Malkin definitely doesn't fit in Detroit. If Kronwall played for the Pens with all of their D healthy he would still be on the first pair. Kronwall doesn't get stats because he's lodged behind two of the top 5 offensive d-men in the NHL. With the Pens he would be a force. To be quite honest I don't think Detroit even sniffs this trade as Sydor would be like our 9th d-man and Malkin would end up in Babcock's doghouse by the end of his first game.
If Kronwall were on the Pens he'd still be behind Gonchar, who found a regular partner in Orpik. There'd be no reason to put NK on the top unit when the Pens already have a good complementary pairing. The Pens have no need for another offensive defenseman. The defense is, in fact, pretty stable and well-balanced, and certainly not in any state that would require the team to trade a player of Malkin's caliber.

Quote:
The only real deal-breaker in this trade is the fact that Malkin is 5 years younger than Datsyuk. But the fact that Malkin will only outscore Datsyuk by maybe 10-15 points a season while Datsyuk also plays consistently Selke-quality defense against other top lines evens their current value in my eyes. If I want to win now I acquire Datsyuk. If Datsyuk was only played against third and fourth lines and pulled 20-22 minutes while never sniffing the PK he would be a 110 point guy too.
Malkin's already outscoring Datsyuk by that sort of gap. He has the ability to do much more on both sides of the puck, and when Datsyuk was Malkin's age, he was exponentially less effective in every phase of the game. It's very convenient in these proposals for people to claim that Crosby and Malkin are already at or near their peaks when they wouldn't dream of allowing the same for their own similarly-aged top prospects.

Quote:
I thought the Datsyuk\Zetterberg vs. Crosby\Malkin issue was resolved pretty effectively during the finals. Crosby did very well but Malkin vanished utterly.
Malkin was also hurt, sick, and consequently his play had suffered prior to the Detroit series. But don't let silly things like different variables affect your appraisal.

Quote:
Some people seem to forget that even though Malkin is young and improving, Datsyuk is also improving. His game gets better every year, and it's scary to think that, even in his early 30s, he's still developing and getting better. I don't think the difference between Malkin and Datsyuk will be clear for another 5 years, when Datsyuk is in his mid-late 30s and Malkin is in his absolute prime.
The relative room for both's growth isn't even in the same ballpark.

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Old
11-03-2008, 11:42 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
No thanks.

Malkin is probably better than Datsyuk right now, is 5 years younger, has higher upside, and is signed longer term.

Kronwall is not enough to make up that difference.
Hes 8 years younger

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11-04-2008, 04:40 PM
  #98
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Malkin would be a TERRIBLE fit in Detroit


1. No Detroit forward is going to average 22 minutes per game unless their playing a significant amount of time on the PK (think 3:00+ minutes)

2. No Detroit forward is going to average 5:00+ minutes of PP time per game

3. No Detroit forward who plays 20 some minutes a game is going to be able to have a mediocre defensive resume, no matter their age.

Malkin would see fewer even strength minutes and fewer PP minutes which would probably put him on a similar offensive pace to Datsyuk while being significantly lesser in his own zone. And I'd be willing to bet that Malkin, no matter how old, will ever be as good as Datsyuk is.

And this isn't even touching on how trading Datsyuk would disrupt chemistry and how it would make it even MORE difficult for Detroit to re-sign players this upcoming season.


Value wise, its a decent deal. Everything else, its terrible.

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11-04-2008, 04:46 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by doctordark View Post
If Kronwall were on the Pens he'd still be behind Gonchar, who found a regular partner in Orpik. There'd be no reason to put NK on the top unit when the Pens already have a good complementary pairing. The Pens have no need for another offensive defenseman. The defense is, in fact, pretty stable and well-balanced, and certainly not in any state that would require the team to trade a player of Malkin's caliber.



Malkin's already outscoring Datsyuk by that sort of gap. He has the ability to do much more on both sides of the puck, and when Datsyuk was Malkin's age, he was exponentially less effective in every phase of the game. It's very convenient in these proposals for people to claim that Crosby and Malkin are already at or near their peaks when they wouldn't dream of allowing the same for their own similarly-aged top prospects.



Malkin was also hurt, sick, and consequently his play had suffered prior to the Detroit series. But don't let silly things like different variables affect your appraisal.



The relative room for both's growth isn't even in the same ballpark.
1. When Datsyuk was younger, the NHL was an entirely different game. A game in which a 41 goal scorer could win the Rocket Richard as opposed to a 60 some goal scorer.

2. Malkin scores more, but he also plays more on the PP and at even strength

3. The offensive gap between Datsyuk and Malkin is small. The defensive gap between the Selke winner who has only gotten better defensively and Malkin, is a canyon.

4. Regardless of whether or not Malkin was sick, hurt, etc, he still offered little-no intangibles. Steve Yzmeran was a beast in a playoffs where he played on one leg. Not to mention, every player, especially at the final stage of the Stanley Cup playoffs, is playing with some sort of disability. Especially on a team that had already played 2 more games than the Pens.


Well talk about the future when the future is now, but as of this season, Datsyuk is the better player - Unless you don't consider playing 2 more minutes on the PP per night an advantage and defensive savvy to be of any worth.

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11-04-2008, 10:14 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by detredWINgs View Post
1. When Datsyuk was younger, the NHL was an entirely different game. A game in which a 41 goal scorer could win the Rocket Richard as opposed to a 60 some goal scorer.
Scoring placements have not changed. Malkin was 2nd last year, yet Datsyuk never even sniffed the top 10 until after the lockout, at age 27. There is no argument for Datsyuk being anywhere near as prodigious a scorer as Malkin at anywhere near his age.

None.

Quote:
2. Malkin scores more, but he also plays more on the PP and at even strength
Datsyuk consistently plays with better linemates at even strength and plays for a team with a much more organized and fluid offensive scheme. God help Detroit's offense if Therrien were at the helm.

Quote:
3. The offensive gap between Datsyuk and Malkin is small. The defensive gap between the Selke winner who has only gotten better defensively and Malkin, is a canyon.
The offensive gap is considerable and widening. The defensive gap is considerable and narrowing.

Quote:
4. Regardless of whether or not Malkin was sick, hurt, etc, he still offered little-no intangibles. Steve Yzmeran was a beast in a playoffs where he played on one leg. Not to mention, every player, especially at the final stage of the Stanley Cup playoffs, is playing with some sort of disability. Especially on a team that had already played 2 more games than the Pens.
An injured leg and an illness are anything but the same. You can play through the pain of an injured leg with a high enough pain threshold (which Yzerman obviously had), but you can't find extra reserves of energy when you literally can't keep down food. That's absurd, unless you believe Malkin should somehow be able to change how the human body functions.

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Well talk about the future when the future is now, but as of this season, Datsyuk is the better player - Unless you don't consider playing 2 more minutes on the PP per night an advantage and defensive savvy to be of any worth.
Datsyuk is not the better player. Malkin was 2nd in Hart voting and 2nd in Pearson voting last year, and Datsyuk wasn't in the race. Through two playoff series, Malkin was as good as any NHL player, and then he became hurt and fell ill.

Now this year, Malkin's again out-pointing Datsyuk by .5 per game and leading the entire league in scoring. You're basing your assessment on two playoff series during which one of the players in question was in dubious health.

And yet, Malkin is still only 22 and has room to improve even further. That is not a negligible value factor.

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