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Martin Brodeur Out 3-4 Months

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Old
11-04-2008, 12:35 PM
  #26
Jester
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
now I'll finally get to see if Brodeur was more a product of the devils system then his own abilities. Putting any competent goalie behind that defense for years and years, you'd probably see comparable numbers. Putting him on any other team he'd be mediocre at best.
the defensive talent in front of Brodeur has plunged in recent years...his play has not other than the normal vagaries of age and lots of games.

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11-04-2008, 12:43 PM
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lol, I got to to "Marty B" and my brain went "oh ****".

This sucks. He is so close to the records.
From the position of a Flyers fan, this is somewhat good news as the Devils will certainly not going to be very competitive. Then again, we already beat Marty twice and I think we can do it again. Weekes will not be as much a problem, even though he played fantastically yesterday against the Sabres yesterday, even though their defense played like **** in the first period.

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11-04-2008, 12:44 PM
  #28
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glad I picked up Weekes on Sunday in my other keeper. thought it was gonna be short term thing.

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11-04-2008, 12:49 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
now I'll finally get to see if Brodeur was more a product of the devils system then his own abilities. Putting any competent goalie behind that defense for years and years, you'd probably see comparable numbers. Putting him on any other team he'd be mediocre at best.
Thats as ridiculous as the "gretzky would be mediocre at best in the NHL today" arguement.

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11-04-2008, 01:33 PM
  #30
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Wow, that sucks for NJ fans. I am sure the Devils will find a way to make the playoffs, they always do.

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11-04-2008, 01:33 PM
  #31
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there goes two of my fantasy teams.
go flyers.

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11-04-2008, 01:33 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
now I'll finally get to see if Brodeur was more a product of the devils system then his own abilities. Putting any competent goalie behind that defense for years and years, you'd probably see comparable numbers. Putting him on any other team he'd be mediocre at best.
So you don't think he's one of the top goalies to ever play the game?

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11-04-2008, 01:44 PM
  #33
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Regardless of how good Weekes can be, we have to start taking advantage of weaker Pittsburgh and New Jersey teams during their battle with injuries. I hate our slow start.

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11-04-2008, 02:07 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Thats as ridiculous as the "gretzky would be mediocre at best in the NHL today" arguement.
You never know, but thats not what is important. What is important is that among his peers, he excelled so much that he is known as the greatest ever.

Athletes get better and better over the years with advances in nutrition, work-out supplements and extra popularity and competition in sports. Many current athletes would wipe the floor with great older ones, but that is an unfair comparison, at best. I mean, would Babe Ruth be the Great Bambino if he was around today facing 90-95 mph fastballs and strong curveballs and sliders on a regular basis??

I mean, people are breaking Olympic records every Olympics, this shows people are getting better at conditioning and training.

Do you think the best cars in the 60's can compare to the best cars of today? No. But are the best cars in the 60's still remembered today and loved for what they were at the time?? YES.

I know it sounds evil or wrong or something, but it is entirely possible that in today's NHL, Gretzky in his prime, might not be considered the best player to play the game.

However, he didn't play in today's NHL, and never will. It is an unfair comparison. The game and its athletes have changed. Thats why you always compare current athletes to their current peers.

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11-04-2008, 02:13 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Tiger73549 View Post
You never know, but thats not what is important. What is important is that among his peers, he excelled so much that he is known as the greatest ever.

Athletes get better and better over the years with advances in nutrition, work-out supplements and extra popularity and competition in sports. Many current athletes would wipe the floor with great older ones, but that is an unfair comparison, at best. I mean, would Babe Ruth be the Great Bambino if he was around today facing 90-95 mph fastballs and strong curveballs and sliders on a regular basis??

I mean, people are breaking Olympic records every Olympics, this shows people are getting better at conditioning and training.

Do you think the best cars in the 60's can compare to the best cars of today? No. But are the best cars in the 60's still remembered today and loved for what they were at the time?? YES.

I know it sounds evil or wrong or something, but it is entirely possible that in today's NHL, Gretzky in his prime, might not be considered the best player to play the game.

However, he didn't play in today's NHL, and never will. It is an unfair comparison. The game and its athletes have changed. Thats why you always compare current athletes to their current peers.
Just so you know, if Gretzky were playing today he would also have all of those advantages. He would have the advantage of better equipment such as lighter skates and composite sticks that shoot like rockets. He would also be playing in a league that doesnt let you touch anyone without getting a powerplay, which gretzky dominated. He would also have the advantage of weight training progams, nutritional programs and the conditioning that players recieve today. I'm not saying take greatzky with his barely curved tree branch wood stick and trash skates and tell him to go dominate but his skill along with the advantages of today's athletes yes, he would dominate.


And by the way, gretzky wasnt playing back when Ruth played baseball. Gretzky scored 90 points in the NHL just 10 years ago and was 37 freakin years old when he did it. That year Jagr, Forsberg, and Bure were the only players to have more points than him. You think he would have only put up 90 points if he wasnt old as hell and in his 20th season in the NHL? He would dominate as much if not more if he were in the league now, be serious.


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11-04-2008, 03:02 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by CannonGoBoom View Post
Just so you know, if Gretzky were playing today he would also have all of those advantages. He would have the advantage of better equipment such as lighter skates and composite sticks that shoot like rockets. He would also be playing in a league that doesnt let you touch anyone without getting a powerplay, which gretzky dominated. He would also have the advantage of weight training progams, nutritional programs and the conditioning that players recieve today. I'm not saying take greatzky with his barely curved tree branch wood stick and trash skates and tell him to go dominate but his skill along with the advantages of today's athletes yes, he would dominate.


And by the way, gretzky wasnt playing back when Ruth played baseball. Gretzky scored 90 points in the NHL just 10 years ago and was 37 freakin years old when he did it. That year Jagr, Forsberg, and Bure were the only players to have more points than him. You think he would have only put up 90 points if he wasnt old as hell and in his 20th season in the NHL? He would dominate as much if not more if he were in the league now, be serious.
Gretzky is also on record himself saying that he wouldn't have touched the point totals he did in his prime in the modern game...which isn't really a leap of faith in itself. I agree that Gretzky would still put up great numbers, but it is important to remember that the game and competition changes, and has changed considerably since the 80s.

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11-04-2008, 03:10 PM
  #37
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So you don't think he's one of the top goalies to ever play the game?
Any goalie who is able to stick around in the NHL for more than a decade is a great goalie. However, i do think his numbers are helped A LOT by the defensive style of play NJ uses. For a decade a typical game for him was 20 saves, 5 chances, and win by a goal. The success of a goalie over the long haul is very much affected by the team in front of him. He's able to play 70 games a year because he's not facing the shot totals of poor defensive teams. On any team but the devils he's probably the same level of Ritcher or belfor. Still good, but not considered the best ever. If you switch the marty's this year, i bet biron puts up better #'s with the devils than brodeur would with us.

If moving a pitcher from the AL to the NL lowers his era by 1 run. Then moving marty to a non defensive minded team adds 1 goal to his gaa and probably cuts his shutouts considerably.

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11-04-2008, 04:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
Any goalie who is able to stick around in the NHL for more than a decade is a great goalie. However, i do think his numbers are helped A LOT by the defensive style of play NJ uses. For a decade a typical game for him was 20 saves, 5 chances, and win by a goal. The success of a goalie over the long haul is very much affected by the team in front of him. He's able to play 70 games a year because he's not facing the shot totals of poor defensive teams. On any team but the devils he's probably the same level of Ritcher or belfor. Still good, but not considered the best ever. If you switch the marty's this year, i bet biron puts up better #'s with the devils than brodeur would with us.

If moving a pitcher from the AL to the NL lowers his era by 1 run. Then moving marty to a non defensive minded team adds 1 goal to his gaa and probably cuts his shutouts considerably.
Whoo hoo, Kicksave! I am pleased as well to see someone else who does not buy into the greatness of Brodeur because of numbers' sake.

I want to see How NJ does. I do not think Brodeur is mediocre, but I don't think his numbers would be so awesome if he played on Florida for the past 10 years. Weekes isn't a bad goalie, although he is older than when I got to see him play for the Canes. If you put a good defensive system in front of any goalie, the numbers will reflect it. Again, before everyone jumps into their blind Brodeur rage, I am not saying he is solely a product of his numbers. I would have much rather had Brodeur than any goalie the Flyers have had since Parent. But, I get annoyed that everyone treats him as the only reason the Devils ever did anything.

Last year in the playoffs everyone said he was overworked and bad, but his defense did not help him out one bit. There were goals due to bad turnovers that were not his fault and that one did not see in the regular season, yet everyone jumped all over him. These same people failed to see that his numbers were worse because of the defense in front if him in that series.

People give the goalie in NJ credit for everything, and yet the goalie (whoever it may be) in Detroit gets no credit for his team's success, even though those goalies in Detroit consistently put up solid numbers.

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11-04-2008, 05:19 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
If you switch the marty's this year, i bet biron puts up better #'s with the devils than brodeur would with us.
I understand your point, but this is a bit of a stretch. I think you need to give the Devil his due here.

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11-04-2008, 06:13 PM
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Ok, some of you are going overboard on Martin. He might be a bit over rated but he is defeinitely better the Biron and he is still a top-10 goalie of all time no matter what. It is arguable who is top-3, but Martin has been the steadying force ofg that team. i understand they run a greatr system and have had great dfense but he is stil very, very, very good

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11-04-2008, 06:46 PM
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He's 0-2 against us. Finally it was our year to smack that little ***** up and we have to wait til freakin' february.

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11-04-2008, 08:26 PM
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you arent a hockey fan
you are a hockey fan without a job

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11-04-2008, 10:37 PM
  #43
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you are a hockey fan without a job
OHhhhhhhhhh you got me, thats a good one, im sorry me not celebrating injuries on athletes upsets you so much to make a joke (a bad one) to try and defend some arrogant "fan". you are the kind of "fan" that the embarrassed flyer fans had to apologize for when that moron threw the smokebomb on the ice, the one that gives philly its bad reputation

and btw, you just insulted all your fellow flyer fans that posted then too


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11-05-2008, 07:20 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Gunnar Stahl 30 View Post
OHhhhhhhhhh you got me, thats a good one, im sorry me not celebrating injuries on athletes upsets you so much to make a joke (a bad one) to try and defend some arrogant "fan". you are the kind of "fan" that the embarrassed flyer fans had to apologize for when that moron threw the smokebomb on the ice, the one that gives philly its bad reputation

and btw, you just insulted all your fellow flyer fans that posted then too
A devils fan threw it.

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11-05-2008, 07:22 AM
  #45
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I have him on my fantasy team. No good for me, but i normally i love when hes out.

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11-05-2008, 09:43 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
now I'll finally get to see if Brodeur was more a product of the devils system then his own abilities. Putting any competent goalie behind that defense for years and years, you'd probably see comparable numbers. Putting him on any other team he'd be mediocre at best.
So Kevin Weekes saving 19/20 shots, standing on his head, in the first period Monday night. That magical system in place.

I guess your question just got answered.

Put him on another team and he's mediocre at best? Look at the New Jersey Devils Roster. Look who played for them back in October when he shutout Dallas 5-0. No Rolston, no Holik. Paul Martin is our best Dman... and many people don't consider him a #1 ! Your argument is flawed, big time.

Sure, he plays on a smart hockey team which helps his stats. Does that mean he is any less stellar of a goalie?

Tell me (and i'm not trying to rub it in the boards' face, just that its appropriate here).... What does a defensive system have to do with this save..



And you know he has done that time and time again.

New Jersey, for your info, lead the league in goals scored in 2000-2001with 295 goals- 14 more goals than second place Pittsburgh. Brodeur's stats that year... 2.32 GAA and .906 save % with 9 shutouts. Maybe the Devils are just a... smart hockey team?
Maybe he's... just good?


Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
If moving a pitcher from the AL to the NL lowers his era by 1 run. Then moving marty to a non defensive minded team adds 1 goal to his gaa and probably cuts his shutouts considerably.
Yea, the real world works that way.

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11-05-2008, 09:45 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by billyH2O View Post
So Kevin Weekes saving 19/20 shots, standing on his head, in the first period Monday night. That magical system in place.

I guess your question just got answered.

Put him on another team and he's mediocre at best? Look at the New Jersey Devils Roster. Look who played for them back in October when he shutout Dallas 5-0. No Rolston, no Holik. Paul Martin is our best Dman... and many people don't consider him a #1 ! Your argument is flawed, big time.

Sure, he plays on a smart hockey team which helps his stats. Does that mean he is any less stellar of a goalie?

Tell me (and i'm not trying to rub it in the boards' face, just that its appropriate here).... What does a defensive system have to do with this save..



And you know he has done that time and time again.

New Jersey, for your info, lead the league in goals scored in 2000-2001with 295 goals- 14 more goals than second place Pittsburgh. Brodeur's stats that year... 2.32 GAA and .906 save % with 9 shutouts. Maybe the Devils are just a... smart hockey team?
Maybe he's... just good?
For my money, hes the best to play the position.

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11-05-2008, 09:46 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kicksave27 View Post
If moving a pitcher from the AL to the NL lowers his era by 1 run. Then moving marty to a non defensive minded team adds 1 goal to his gaa and probably cuts his shutouts considerably.
He is the defense.
Brodeur would succeed on any team in the NHL.

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11-05-2008, 09:49 AM
  #49
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For my money, hes the best to play the position.
I'll let anyone argue where he stands all-time. And I agree, there have been better goalies in their prime (i.e. Hasek). But to say he's simply a product of his system... come on.

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say.

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11-05-2008, 10:06 AM
  #50
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Originally Posted by billyH2O View Post
I'll let anyone argue where he stands all-time. And I agree, there have been better goalies in their prime (i.e. Hasek). But to say he's simply a product of his system... come on.

Anyway, I said what I wanted to say.
Given the fact that Brodeur is literally like having a 3rd defenseman on the ice, I would take Biron over Hasek any day of the week.

Not to mention, Hasek is a headcase.

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