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Old
11-06-2008, 02:03 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
Wow. I like Koivu and all, great guy, great player, got his poster on my wall, but the thought of him getting Markov money is plain ridiculous to me. Sure, lets not afford the rest of our UFAs and live with Koivu and a mediocre team like we have for years.
There's no way Koivu will get Markov money with the CH. On the market, maybe. He'll have to take a home discount to stay IMO, and he'll gladly take it if it means finishing his career in MTL with enough money to keep our quality roster.

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11-06-2008, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Mother Pucker View Post
There's no way Koivu will get Markov money with the CH. On the market, maybe. He'll have to take a home discount to stay IMO, and he'll gladly take it if it means finishing his career in MTL with enough money to keep our quality roster.
Markov took a home town discount, that's why he makes less than Redden and guys like that. Koivu can get in the 5.3-5.7 range on the UFA market...if he wants to stay and takes the same discount as Markov we can probably get him at 14-15 mil/3 years or 17-20 mil for 4.

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11-06-2008, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Markov took a home town discount, that's why he makes less than Redden and guys like that. Koivu can get in the 5.3-5.7 range on the UFA market...if he wants to stay and takes the same discount as Markov we can probably get him at 14-15 mil/3 years or 17-20 mil for 4.
Not if he wants to continue winning he wont.

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11-06-2008, 02:19 PM
  #79
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11-06-2008, 02:44 PM
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This isn't really news. I heard in one of the recent interviews on here however that he said he would like it to happen but if it doesn't it doesn't and he'll move on. Something along those lines anyway.

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11-06-2008, 02:45 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
Not if he wants to continue winning he wont.
What exactly is that supposed to mean?

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11-06-2008, 02:49 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Markov took a home town discount, that's why he makes less than Redden and guys like that. Koivu can get in the 5.3-5.7 range on the UFA market...if he wants to stay and takes the same discount as Markov we can probably get him at 14-15 mil/3 years or 17-20 mil for 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
Not if he wants to continue winning he wont.
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
What exactly is that supposed to mean?
It means that keeping Koivu at the "home discount" cap hit you are suggesting, we wouldn't be able to keep many of our core players, and Koivu as well as the management are well aware of it. I think that after enduring such crappy eyars with the habs, Koivu will be willing to take a REAL hometown discount, something like 3-3.5 a year for 3 years.

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11-06-2008, 02:54 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Markov took a home town discount, that's why he makes less than Redden and guys like that. Koivu can get in the 5.3-5.7 range on the UFA market...if he wants to stay and takes the same discount as Markov we can probably get him at 14-15 mil/3 years or 17-20 mil for 4.
I think Markov makes less than a guy like Redden because he signed two years prior. Value goes up every year, and I'm sure if Markov was a UFA last year he'd make at least Redden's 6.5 with a hometown discount.

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11-06-2008, 02:57 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Squeaky View Post
I hear this same thing every year when Koivu's contract is up. It's usually followed by complaining when Koivu eventually signs a more realistic contract.

I recommend people go take a look at what similar players are signing for these days. Koivu is worth significantly more than 3 million. I mean cripes, Ryder just got more than that. Naslund got 4, Erat got 4.5, even Demitra got 4. Those guys all had similar production to Koivu last year, and I'd argue that Koivu brings more to the game than any of them.
Here is a good comparison, and where I see Koivu sign for.

Naslund type of contract.

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11-06-2008, 03:11 PM
  #85
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You need to remember that for Saku to get a big deal on the open market, there is a big chance he ends up with a non contender. After waiting for so long to play in a winning team, I wouldn't be surprised he'd take a decent discount to stick around. I see him accepting something that will have about a 4 mil cap hit. Maybe less. One can hope at least

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11-06-2008, 03:28 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Clumsyhab View Post
He's on pace for 80+ points. Let say he gets 70 points, in this league, a 70 point player is worth 5M+. Also, you have to take in consideration that 15M/4 years is "only" 3.75M cap hit, which isn't that bad for both ways. That contract would be similar to the one Alfie got with the Sens, with almost 2 millions less in cap hit. If you want another comparison, Mike Fisher got 21M/5 years (6+4+4+4+3), 4.2M cap hit. I know Saku is getting old, but I'd still think my 15M/4year deal for Saku better than what Fisher got.
You don't give a 5M$ contract to a player , because after 10 games on the season , he's on a pace for 80 points . That's ridiculous .

Koivu always had good start and it isn't the first time that he has more than a 1 PPG . His problem is that he never was able to maintain the rythm , more than few months .

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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
4 yrs on a deal is a big stretch.. I think he'll go with 2 yrs @ 4.5m.
I hope that gainey won't re-sign him for more than 1-2 season . Last year , he was looking out of juice after 20-25 games . What kind of hockey will he have next years ?

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Some people on here must be on a different planet...so Koivu is only worth 3 mil a year? Is this in the same league where Drury Gomez and Briere made about 8 mil last year...and he is as good as any of those guys. Briere is a PP specialist, Koivu is a much much better all around player. Drury had similar numbers, Gomez has better numbers, maybe he is worth a bit more.

On the open markey Koivu gets 5-6 mil per year on a 2-3 year deal...especially if he keeps up his current pace(or at least puts up around 70 points).

Best case for the Habs he signs a front loaded 4 year deal to reduce the cap hit like 7 mil 1st yr, 5 mil the 2nd yr, 4 mil the 3rd year and 3 mil the 4th...19 mil over 4 years 4.75 cap hit. I'd try that with Komi Koivu Kovalev and Tanguay. Obviously Tanguay and Komi you can go 5-6 years given they are under 30 and probably have 5-6 more good years. Kovy and Koivu probably have 2 good years and 2 lesser years.
Seriously , if a gm is enough fool to pay a Finger 4 m$ , does that mean that Gainey have to do the same ? Drury , Gomez and Briere are all overpaid , but they are also younger and better than Koivu .

Koivu won 4, 75 M$ last seasons . I don't think considering his age , that his production will increase but decrease .So should his salary . 3,5 m$ - 3,75,$ maximum

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11-06-2008, 03:30 PM
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he's at 4.75 million now... you give him 5 million and his cap hit has only gone up 250,000....

We can fit that under the cap and still have 12million to split between kovy and tanguay.

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11-06-2008, 03:55 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Markov took a home town discount, that's why he makes less than Redden and guys like that. Koivu can get in the 5.3-5.7 range on the UFA market...if he wants to stay and takes the same discount as Markov we can probably get him at 14-15 mil/3 years or 17-20 mil for 4.
Markov is such a bad example. Come on, the guy was hitting his prime, he was 28, by the time he would finish his contract, he's still be younger than Koivu is now and will be when he signs his own next contract. There is a clear difference between players who are hitting their prime and players such as Sakic, Modano, Selanne, who all signed very low, high discount, contracts compared to what they could get. They've already hit the payload, and Koivu in his own way has too. Even if he would ever go PPG this season, he won't get more than a 4 mil cap hit. Maybe front loaded so he would get 5 mil for one season or two, but the other seasons on his contract would be much lower as the expectation of older age and liability would be included.

The two parties will probably also consider how many years Koivu is ready to give to the Habs before he ever retires and add a year more to that with a very low number for that season, so he could retire and they could lower the cap hit as he's not part of the over-35 rule when he will sign his next contract.

Same goes with Kovalev. Siging him at a high cap hit is a high risk and a liability. Kovalev knows this, Koivu knows this, the Habs know this, and all three parties are well aware that the Habs will have Tanguay hitting his prime to re-sign, Komi hitting his prime to re-sign, youth to re-sign in the upcoming seasons. Both of them will probably take a hometown discount with a cap hit at 4 mil or lower. This HAS NOTHING to do with the hometown discount Markov has taken. Oh and expect Markov to re-sign close to what he is already making.

Alfie's hometown discount was huge. He could've taken 6,5 mil for cap hit and it would still have been quite a discount. 5 mil for Koivu would be a very small discount.

And the argument about salaries always going up should be taken with a precursory glance. If the league cap doesn't go up, the salaries offered in the FA period will look alike and will probably be lower than they were as a stagnating cap will mean an industry that has to be careful. Yes there will still be morons giving high salaries to undeserving players, but we aren't talking about the morons here, nor are we talking about players who will accept a change of venue to break the bank. And the other side of the coin, if the cap and market goes up again, the Habs will have more free space to accomodate the 500-750k$ more they will get on their contracts, not 1-2 mil$ more.

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11-06-2008, 06:02 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
he's at 4.75 million now... you give him 5 million and his cap hit has only gone up 250,000....

We can fit that under the cap and still have 12million to split between kovy and tanguay.
As well as Plekanec, Higgins, Komisarek... if Koivu gets 5 million, either Bob is off his rocker, or Koivu wants a change of atmosphere.

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11-06-2008, 06:10 PM
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Shanahan was at 2,5 m$
Modano ; from 9 m$ to 4,5 m$
Chelios ; from 6m$ to 850,000 $
Forsberg ;from 11 m$ to 5,750 ,000 $
Roenick ; from 7,500,000 $ to 5m$ and than to 1,200 000 $

i know that the players are older , but most of them took their pay cut right after the lockout . I also considere Koivu a bit older than his real age , considering his health history .


Your toughts ?

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11-06-2008, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Montrealistic View Post
As well as Plekanec, Higgins, Komisarek... if Koivu gets 5 million, either Bob is off his rocker, or Koivu wants a change of atmosphere.
Its all been figured out... its in the salary cap situation summer 09 sticky.... for 17million the big three forwards fit on this team and their is room for everyone else... at around the same cap.

Lang, Begin, Bouillion, Dandenault... all out and replaced by cheaper kids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 100th View Post
Shanahan was at 2,5 m$
Modano ; from 9 m$ to 4,5 m$
Chelios ; from 6m$ to 850,000 $
Forsberg ;from 11 m$ to 5,750 ,000 $
Roenick ; from 7,500,000 $ to 5m$ and than to 1,200 000 $

i know that the players are older , but most of them took their pay cut right after the lockout . I also considere Koivu a bit older than his real age , considering his health history .


Your toughts ?
Koivu isn't slowing down the way those guys have... not to the same degree...

Chelios is mid 40s

Forsberg injury prone

Modano and Roenick are now defensive centres, energy guys... you can't count on them for more than 35-40 pts anymore.

They aren't really comparable to Saku who had 75 pts in 07, was a little down but still over 50 pts last year, and will probably be in the 60-70 point range this year. Sure if Koivu puts up 40 points then we can talk about a serious discount like those guys... but with 11 points already, do you think that is gonna happen??

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11-06-2008, 07:37 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Koivu isn't slowing down the way those guys have... not to the same degree...

Chelios is mid 40s

Forsberg injury prone

Modano and Roenick are now defensive centres, energy guys... you can't count on them for more than 35-40 pts anymore.

They aren't really comparable to Saku who had 75 pts in 07, was a little down but still over 50 pts last year, and will probably be in the 60-70 point range this year. Sure if Koivu puts up 40 points then we can talk about a serious discount like those guys... but with 11 points already, do you think that is gonna happen??
I think that you should see the stats of Shanahan , Forsberg and Modano before saying that they aren't really comparable to Koivu . They showed that they took a pay cut when they were still puting a lot of points . As many Habs fans , i think that you are overating Saku here . By the way , Modano who 's a lot older than Koivu has 10 points in 12 games so far ; not bad for a defensive center .

For sure , all those numbers are just stats and they don't say everything . To me , the poor production of Koivu at ES , added to his minus stats of the last seasons , are showing more than anything how he's slowing down

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11-06-2008, 07:52 PM
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Modano isn't the game breaker he was before and is still getting 4.5million... I'd personally take
Koivu > Modano at this stage of both of their respective careers.... but i can see an argument on the other side... and some people in this thread want koivu to take 3m or 3.5 million.... :

Forsberg will probably never play 60 games in a season again and he gets almost 6 million... 60 would be considered very healthy for him... sure he can score when he plays but he never plays.

4.5-5 million for koivu is very fair.

If he's willing to sign a 5 - 4 - 3- 2 contract or something like that we should definetely do it. thats a cap hit of 3.5

but i don't have a problem with a one year 5million contract or a 2 year 9.5 million.

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11-06-2008, 08:00 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
Shanahan was at 2,5 m$
Modano ; from 9 m$ to 4,5 m$
Chelios ; from 6m$ to 850,000 $
Forsberg ;from 11 m$ to 5,750 ,000 $
Roenick ; from 7,500,000 $ to 5m$ and than to 1,200 000 $
A lot of these cuts were induced by the salary cap. Holik was making a huge amount before the lockout due to the inflation of salaries by several GMs. After the lockout, all the salaries were relatively lowered; a guy like Forsberg, while one of the best in the league when healthy, have to have his salary scaled down, because that kind of investment in players who aren't always healthy or aren't the best in the league is useless.

I do see Koivu taking a paycut, but not because any of the aforementioned players did. Those drops were a result of inflation and cap restrictions put into place. No doubt in my mind that in a non-cap world, those guys would still be getting good money.

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11-06-2008, 09:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Modano isn't the game breaker he was before and is still getting 4.5million... I'd personally take
Koivu > Modano at this stage of both of their respective careers.... but i can see an argument on the other side... and some people in this thread want koivu to take 3m or 3.5 million.... :

Forsberg will probably never play 60 games in a season again and he gets almost 6 million... 60 would be considered very healthy for him... sure he can score when he plays but he never plays.

4.5-5 million for koivu is very fair.

If he's willing to sign a 5 - 4 - 3- 2 contract or something like that we should definetely do it. thats a cap hit of 3.5

but i don't have a problem with a one year 5million contract or a 2 year 9.5 million.
I agree that Modano was overpaid at 4,5 m last 2 seasons ( i don,t know how much he 'll win this season ) but it would be the same kind of overpayment if Gainey re-sign Koivu at 4,75 m$ or more for the next season(s). Geez ! he only got 56 points last season , playing with the best PP and offensive team of the NHL .

We all agree to say that his stats will increase this season , playing with Tanguay . But it will be BECAUSE of Tanguay , not because suddendly Koivu will find back his legs .

Also as i said previously , 4 years is way too long because at one point , the Habs will need to make room to at least one of Desharnais or Maxwell .

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11-06-2008, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by 100th View Post
I agree that Modano was overpaid at 4,5 m last 2 seasons ( i don,t know how much he 'll win this season ) but it would be the same kind of overpayment if Gainey re-sign Koivu at 4,75 m$ or more for the next season(s). Geez ! he only got 56 points last season , playing with the best PP and offensive team of the NHL .

We all agree to say that his stats will increase this season , playing with Tanguay . But it will be BECAUSE of Tanguay , not because suddendly Koivu will find back his legs .

Also as i said previously , 4 years is way too long because at one point , the Habs will need to make room to at least one of Desharnais or Maxwell .
It will not be BECAUSE of tanguay... it will be both of them; plus the third member of their line (higgins/lats) all working together.

Tanguay couldn't bring up the production of his linemates in Calgary all by himself last year.... just like Koivu is now working better with an Elite winger that he never had before.

As i've tried to explain in the latendresse threads... and you've even supported me there; it takes three players to make a line.

Noone in the NHL is Mario Lemieux anymore who took crappy players like Rob Brown and made them 50 goal scorers who were never heard from again when they left the line.

Both Saku and Tanguay are working well together... and it is boosting both their stats from last year.... You can't give all the credit to Saku and you can't give all the credit to Tanguay either.

I'm sure if the line was Tanguay - Lapierre - Kostopolous, he wouldn't be scoring at a PPG pace... and I'm sure if the line was Dandenault - Koivu - Begin; Koivu would be having trouble getting back to 50 points again.

Its not a knock on either player to say that they play better and score more points when they are surrounded by other players of that calibre offensively. Its like that with 99% of the league.

Tanguay had a great first season playing with Langkow and Iginla... his second season with Nolan and Conroy was not the same.... and its pretty obvious why he never got it going the same way he did. That doesn't mean that Langkow and Iginla were the reason Tanguay scored all those points and hes a crappy player... it just means that good offensive players need other good offensive players to produce.

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11-06-2008, 09:59 PM
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I have been reading all these posts about having Koivu sign a four year contract? Um, this guy has probably 2 years max left. He has taken a beating throughout his career and that among other things including the cancer has taken years off his hockey career and people need to open their eyes.... I think if Gainey offers a two year deals at 3.5, Koivu jumps at it.... He isnt going to get anything better on the open market.....So do yourself a favour Sak and finish your career in the Red White and Blue

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11-06-2008, 10:11 PM
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I have been reading all these posts about having Koivu sign a four year contract? Um, this guy has probably 2 years max left. He has taken a beating throughout his career and that among other things including the cancer has taken years off his hockey career and people need to open their eyes.... I think if Gainey offers a two year deals at 3.5, Koivu jumps at it.... He isnt going to get anything better on the open market.....So do yourself a favour Sak and finish your career in the Red White and Blue
Did you read the part where we give him a front loaded four year contract to reduce the cap hit and if he retires before its over we don't get hit with the cap hit in his last couple years cause he signed before he turned 35?? Or did you just skim over the posts and go 4 years etc... without understanding what we are trying to do with the cap-o-nomics of the deal.

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11-06-2008, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Beakermania View Post
Did you read the part where we give him a front loaded four year contract to reduce the cap hit and if he retires before its over we don't get hit with the cap hit in his last couple years cause he signed before he turned 35?? Or did you just skim over the posts and go 4 years etc... without understanding what we are trying to do with the cap-o-nomics of the deal.
I'll take the 2nd answer for $500 Beaker.

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11-06-2008, 10:22 PM
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I have been reading all these posts about having Koivu sign a four year contract? Um, this guy has probably 2 years max left. He has taken a beating throughout his career and that among other things including the cancer has taken years off his hockey career and people need to open their eyes.... I think if Gainey offers a two year deals at 3.5, Koivu jumps at it.... He isnt going to get anything better on the open market.....So do yourself a favour Sak and finish your career in the Red White and Blue
I never bought the "he's finished" crap, and I think his gameshape and production speaks for itself.

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