I'm just saying its hard to take your hockey opinion seriously when all you are seeing is stats and highlights. They really don't give you an appreciation if the player played a good or bad game; or how he plays on the ice.
Heck reading boxscores over the last few years would seem to indicate that Corey Locke has the talent in the AHL to succeed in the NHL. We all know thats not true.
In all fairness, I watched the whole game and Grabovski was good. The kid is working hard this season...but still, way too small of a sample to come to any conclusions - season is still young. Even if he does keep it up it is really important to remember that he asked to be traded.
In all fairness, I watched the whole game and Grabovski was good. The kid is working hard this season...but still, way too small of a sample to come to any conclusions - season is still young.
I still see the same defensive defencies in his game... the same inability to win faceoffs... the same ease which he is pushed over.
Sure he's got speed and some offensive skill and with 22:00 he'll inevitably make a nice play or two... create a couple chances during that time... but overall his time on the ice is not productive. He's not gonna give you the 90 points you need from a forward if you are gonna give him that quantity of time; and his liabilities will be exposed in that amount of time on the ice. The leafs will either give up chances or his teammates will take penalties trying to make up for him.
I still see the same defensive defencies in his game... the same inability to win faceoffs... the same ease which he is pushed over.
And that's fine...I'm not asking you to admit the trade was a mistake - perhaps you're not actually reading what I'm writing? -
My main point was regarding the 'did Gainey screw up' argument. Gainey had no choice so those looking to blame Gainey for anything here are way off base. But I see no reason to diminish what the kid is doing.
My main point was regarding the 'did Gainey screw up' argument. Gainey had no choice so those looking to blame Gainey for anything here are way off base. But I see no reason to diminish what the kid is doing.
What is he doing?? Putting up some points with first line style minutes on a bad hockey team that is still losing more games than they win, despite what the Toronto media hype will tell you about how they are doing much better than expected....
I predicted it the day he was traded... he'd put up 60 points for the leafs.... We've always known he had offensive talent... his run in the AHL told us that.... but I just don't think he is a guy you can win with as a top 6 talent on an NHL team.
Is he someone you may be able to hide on your fourth line with limited even strength minutes and PP time.... thats an option to consider... but i don't see a lot of teams in this league doing that with guys. Maybe a coach somewhere will think outside the box and try that with a guy like Grabovski.... will it work?? I don't know, it may be difficult for a player to get into the flow of the game playing only 8-10 minutes or so a night; and the hands, timing, offensive production might not be there.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-06-2008 at 09:26 PM.
And that's fine...I'm not asking you to admit the trade was a mistake - perhaps you're not actually reading what I'm writing? -
My main point was regarding the 'did Gainey screw up' argument. Gainey had no choice so those looking to blame Gainey for anything here are way off base. But I see no reason to diminish what the kid is doing.
No,I think he got you fine. It's just that many of us believe that even if he didn't outwardly ask for a trade, he was likely not going to last long in Montreal and would have been traded/lost to FA or something eventually anyway. Given our centres, who needs another small one who is weak on the puck, weak on his feet, and weak in the face off circle... no matter how "talented" he is? Not what Gainey was looking for to compliment Pleks and Saks, so out the door he goes. Toronto can enjoy losing with him, and he can enjoy scoring all the meaningless goals in the world for them now that he has his chance at 20 mins a night.
No,I think he got you fine. It's just that many of us believe that even if he didn't outwardly ask for a trade, he was likely not going to last long in Montreal and would have been traded/lost to FA or something eventually anyway. Given our centres, who needs another small one who is weak on the puck, weak on his feet, and weak in the face off circle... no matter how "talented" he is? Not what Gainey was looking for to compliment Pleks and Saks, so out the door he goes. Toronto can enjoy losing with him, and he can enjoy scoring all the meaningless goals in the world for them now that he has his chance at 20 mins a night.
And that was my position on Grabovski as well. I always thought the kid had the talent to make it but I didn't see where he would fit in with the Habs. With regards to what he is doing for Toronto, obviously he's not going to carry the team, and I never said he was, it's just that he is, simply, playing good hockey - and that goes beyond the points he is putting up. But also, as I already stated, it is way too early to draw any conclusions regarding what kind of season he is having - but I've been impressed with his work ethic, that is for sure.
What part of the word OPINION do you not understand? I don't give a damn what you think constitutes a winning team. You state your opinions like fact and I am the deluded one?
Actually nhl.com is how I see who scored and the assists but nice try with the generalizations. If you did understand my insights it would be a first in the long run of responses you seem to chase after me with.
This is a forum I don't have to agree with you so stop trying to force it.
How can anybody respect your opinion when you try to force it and only bring stats when you want to show them
You kept talking about 1G for Lats, without mentioning his 6Assists or trying to downgrade them. You also say Lats's goal was in a meaningless 6-1Victory vs the Leafs.
Well, you say ''yet another goal for Grabo tonight''..didn't they lose 5-2?..I guess that was a meaningful goal right?..
He was also cold for a big part of the season but now he's on fire for 3Games so it's a mistake??.
Even the morons on 110% would laugh at you, Now that's a diss.
You say you don't give a damn about what constitutes a winning team. So why are you even writing??..How can you possibly say Gainey made a mistake, but you don't care about what constitutes a winning team??..Wow, Mr.Logic over here..
You were probably one of the guys dissing Gainey for letting Bonk go after he had his little hot streak in NSH last year.
Beaker's not trying to force his opinion on you, it's a DISCUSSION FORUM, if you don't want to have rational discussions, don't post.
If you want us to respect your arguments, then debate them in an intelligent way, not in your ''know it all'' attitude, especially when the points you make are weak.
Robert Lang is a better hockey player than Grabovski. His consistent career scoring totals, his ability to win more faceoffs, his smart positional play (making up for the difference in footspeed) and the fact that he doesn't fall over when you sneeze on him are clearly a better combo than an unproven, weak gazelle type with hands.
Grabovski is going to rack up the minutes in T.O. and even if he outscores Lang there's no question I'd take Lang come the playoffs.
- he asked to be traded
- you have too much depth, and too many small forwards have come through your system when you are trying to promote size
- you needed a skilled veteran like Lang this year, not a another young player trying to make his mark when you already carry a few.
all these things factor into the decision. you can't just say it black and white. win or lose a deal. and there is always going to be regret when there is unknown upside traded away for a known commodity like a Lang. but so what. you have lots of depth and are pushing for the cup. There are sacrifices. You owe it to the rest of the team to bring Lang in, not just what you owe to Grabovski. And he gets his chance to play minutes on an NHL team. this was a good trade.
Let's try to be honest here.....who would really care about his faceoff percentage if he would have had 6 goals with us? Thing is, he probably would not have since he would not have the icetime he's having with TO.
Though, if he would have been centering Lats and SKost, something tells me that's a much better line than Hagman and Kulemin.
Oh well, we'll never know.....but just before we again say that we were fleeced in that trade Ribeiro style (though we still have our little friend Conboy that could justify it....especially if he plays in the NHL and KO a Bruin.....), let's wait to see the contribution of Lang and how Pateryn will develop....
I just don't get why people can't see this as a positive move for both teams. Good for the Leafs and Grabs for playing well so far, good for the Habs and Lang for playing well so far. That's it. No need for a winner or a loser, it was a trade that that has helped both teams, end of story.
The bias in this argument is comparing Grabovski with Lang. As role goes, Grabovski should be compared to Koivu and/or Plekanec - since he is played as top two line center with mostly offensive attributions.
Grabovski was never able to win a top two line spot, even when played with Kovalev.
Lang is the center for a defensive line with high offensive potential. Since we want stats - Grabovski with 8 points is at 0 while Lang with 6 points is at +4.
Anyway - Gui Lafleur said yesterday that he would resign Lang before Koivu - for what it's worth
Anyway - like many others I think:
- I'm happy for Grabovski and happy for the ML (hurts to say that, I know). Unlike for Ryder.
- Grabovski asked to be traded - and he was. Should he have stayed, maybe he would have had a chance to making the team at the training camp, though I doubt since he got already a lot of chances.
- Lang is a sure value that brings exactly what the habs needed from a third center.
I<d rather have Streit and Grabovski than Brisebois, Lang, and even Laraque
Shows how much you know.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newhabfan
The bias in this argument is comparing Grabovski with Lang. As role goes, Grabovski should be compared to Koivu and/or Plekanec - since he is played as top two line center with mostly offensive attributions.
Grabovski was never able to win a top two line spot, even when played with Kovalev.
Lang is the center for a defensive line with high offensive potential. Since we want stats - Grabovski with 8 points is at 0 while Lang with 6 points is at +4.
Anyway - Gui Lafleur said yesterday that he would resign Lang before Koivu - for what it's worth
Anyway - like many others I think:
- I'm happy for Grabovski and happy for the ML (hurts to say that, I know). Unlike for Ryder.
- Grabovski asked to be traded - and he was. Should he have stayed, maybe he would have had a chance to making the team at the training camp, though I doubt since he got already a lot of chances.
- Lang is a sure value that brings exactly what the habs needed from a third center.
Guy Lafleur also said a year ago that we were a team with 4 4th lines, The only thing that man ever knew about hockey was how to skate and shoot the puck. He is the worst sports analyst on earth
Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-07-2008 at 12:51 PM.
Guy Lafleur also said a year ago that we were a team with 4 4th lines, The only thing that man ever knew about hockey was how to skate and shoot the puck. He is the worst sports analyst on earth
...hence the "for what it's worth" part in my post - I was definetely not using him as authority reference.
The bias in this argument is comparing Grabovski with Lang. As role goes, Grabovski should be compared to Koivu and/or Plekanec - since he is played as top two line center with mostly offensive attributions.
Grabovski was never able to win a top two line spot, even when played with Kovalev.
Lang is the center for a defensive line with high offensive potential. Since we want stats - Grabovski with 8 points is at 0 while Lang with 6 points is at +4.
Anyway - Gui Lafleur said yesterday that he would resign Lang before Koivu - for what it's worth
Anyway - like many others I think:
- I'm happy for Grabovski and happy for the ML (hurts to say that, I know). Unlike for Ryder.
- Grabovski asked to be traded - and he was. Should he have stayed, maybe he would have had a chance to making the team at the training camp, though I doubt since he got already a lot of chances.
- Lang is a sure value that brings exactly what the habs needed from a third center.
Looks like Guy Lafleur would be as good a GM as he is a father
), let's wait to see the contribution of Lang and how Pateryn will develop....
