It means that keeping Koivu at the "home discount" cap hit you are suggesting, we wouldn't be able to keep many of our core players, and Koivu as well as the management are well aware of it. I think that after enduring such crappy eyars with the habs, Koivu will be willing to take a REAL hometown discount, something like 3-3.5 a year for 3 years.
The Habas can keep their core players as long as none get a huge raise, other than possibly Komisarek.
Kovy Koivu and Tanguay fit under the cap now, an extra 500k or 1 mil won't suddenly throw the cap out of whack. I think all 3 will get raises but hopefully not much of an increase in cap hit.Contracts like Lang(4 mil) Dandenault(1.8) Bouillon(1.7 or 1.8) Kostopoulos(around 1 mil) Begin(around 1 mil) are also up so that possibly clears 7-8 mil of room(if you give some of those spots to young guys).
If you think you can get Koivu for 3.5 or less over 3 years, you are smoking some good stuff. He is not a superstar but he is a good player, character guy and leader that a lot of teams would offer over 5 mil a year to over 1-2 maybe 3 years. The best case scenario for a home town discount is from 4.5-5 mil over 3 or 4 years probably front loaded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCityIsHockey
I think Markov makes less than a guy like Redden because he signed two years prior. Value goes up every year, and I'm sure if Markov was a UFA last year he'd make at least Redden's 6.5 with a hometown discount.
Markov signed 1 year before...but you are right, part of it might be inflation, but the market still raises the price of a lot of players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 100th
You don't give a 5M$ contract to a player , because after 10 games on the season , he's on a pace for 80 points . That's ridiculous .
Koivu always had good start and it isn't the first time that he has more than a 1 PPG . His problem is that he never was able to maintain the rythm , more than few months .
I hope that gainey won't re-sign him for more than 1-2 season . Last year , he was looking out of juice after 20-25 games . What kind of hockey will he have next years ?
Seriously , if a gm is enough fool to pay a Finger 4 m$ , does that mean that Gainey have to do the same ? Drury , Gomez and Briere are all overpaid , but they are also younger and better than Koivu .
Koivu won 4, 75 M$ last seasons . I don't think considering his age , that his production will increase but decrease .So should his salary . 3,5 m$ - 3,75,$ maximum
Drury is not a better player than Koivu and neither is Briere. Drury is about the same age and he signed 2 years ago for like 6 years at a 7 mil cap hit. Offering Koivu 3.5-3.7 is a joke an an insult, hope Bob is smarter than that on many levels.
I know 10 games does not tell all but also look at last year's playoffs, it shows that Koivu is still a very good player, especially when he has help...which he had very little last year due to Ryder and the plethora of linemates(even Begin Dandy and Kosto played there at times!).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
Its all been figured out... its in the salary cap situation summer 09 sticky.... for 17million the big three forwards fit on this team and their is room for everyone else... at around the same cap.
Lang, Begin, Bouillion, Dandenault... all out and replaced by cheaper kids.
Koivu isn't slowing down the way those guys have... not to the same degree...
Chelios is mid 40s
Forsberg injury prone
Modano and Roenick are now defensive centres, energy guys... you can't count on them for more than 35-40 pts anymore.
They aren't really comparable to Saku who had 75 pts in 07, was a little down but still over 50 pts last year, and will probably be in the 60-70 point range this year. Sure if Koivu puts up 40 points then we can talk about a serious discount like those guys... but with 11 points already, do you think that is gonna happen??
Agreed, very well said. Saku has a lot more in the tank than those guys last year.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-07-2008 at 02:41 AM.
The key for Saku's next contract will be his age. Unlike Kovalev, Koivu is considered to be less than 35 years old at the time of signing and his retirement in the foreseeable future is not going to leave anything lingering into Habs cap.
So, Gainey would not be offering Saku 3,5 million, he would be aiming for 3,5 million cap hit. The true offer would be 5 to 7 million, the salary he is paid for first or first two years.
The couple of years after the first two would be (on mutual understading) valued for Saku's expected market value at that point, somewhere around 3-4 million most.
Then one or two years of tail end money would be added, in order to further decrease the cap hit (because bulk of the foreseeable cap difficulties emerge next season), with both parties understanding that at that point Saku might already retire.
For comparison, was Briere signed for 6,5 million (his cap hit) or for 10 million (his salary for first few years)? The team got Briere for 6,5, but Briere got 10 million out of the deal.
For me Pedneault is now on the same page as Ecklund... really.... (nothing to do with this article..) wich btw, just look like himself propaganda about his "hot connections"...
yeah right.. he is a nobody now.... he should go back to the hockeybuzz website put it up.. if not already done.
I want him to retire as a hab and then work for the organization
As what? Press relations???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crusher20
For me Pedneault is now on the same page as Ecklund... really.... (nothing to do with this article..) wich btw, just look like himself propaganda about his "hot connections"...
yeah right.. he is a nobody now.... he should go back to the hockeybuzz website put it up.. if not already done.
Well Pedneault got the Lang trade....
Last edited by Habs10Habs: 11-07-2008 at 01:09 PM.
Lets see what people are saying in three or four years.... which is my point
So in other words, let's wait 'til he's almost 40 and than talk about his poor finishing and gameshape.
Look, with all of the injuries and fights with cancer, he still comes back and has a really good year last season and is on pace to have another good one right now. He's playing better than the years where he would have been in his prime, except that time he went down while leading the league in points.
The key for Saku's next contract will be his age. Unlike Kovalev, Koivu is considered to be less than 35 years old at the time of signing and his retirement in the foreseeable future is not going to leave anything lingering into Habs cap.
So, Gainey would not be offering Saku 3,5 million, he would be aiming for 3,5 million cap hit. The true offer would be 5 to 7 million, the salary he is paid for first or first two years.
The couple of years after the first two would be (on mutual understading) valued for Saku's expected market value at that point, somewhere around 3-4 million most.
Then one or two years of tail end money would be added, in order to further decrease the cap hit (because bulk of the foreseeable cap difficulties emerge next season), with both parties understanding that at that point Saku might already retire.
For comparison, was Briere signed for 6,5 million (his cap hit) or for 10 million (his salary for first few years)? The team got Briere for 6,5, but Briere got 10 million out of the deal.
I know about the home town discount thing and reducing the cap hit by adding years...but bringing Briere at 6.5 into the discussion and suggesting 3.5 for Koivu shows you how absurd it is.
Even with a home town discount and adding a year(s) to the contract, it's a huge slap in the face to Koivu for him to make close to half what Briere is...a guy that's playing 3rd line in Phillie and a PP specialist. I think Koivu all things being considered has more value than Briere.
If you are lucky as a GM you sign him to a deal like this 6 mil, 5 mil 5 mil 3 mil...19 over 4 years for a 4.75 cap hit. Expecting him to play for 6 mil, 5 mil 3 mil 2 mil 2 mil is pretty insulting to a player like Koivu.
That the Habs want to re-sign Saku is something logical , but the report of Pedneault is ridiculous ; the Habs movie productor told the Habs to keep Koivu next season , because he's one of the " actor " of it .
Koivu is making $4.75M this year. I doubt Gainey is going to ask him to take a pay cut, especially if he continues to play the way he has early this season. I would be happy to see Koivu sign again for $4.75M a year or even slightly higher. Anything under 5M a year is good.
Koivu on the open market gets over $5M a year EASY! Hell, Ryder got 4$M a year after the year he had last year!
__________________
Hey look, it's Duffman; the guy in a costume that creates awareness of Duff!
Koivu is making $4.75M this year. I doubt Gainey is going to ask him to take a pay cut, especially if he continues to play the way he has early this season. I would be happy to see Koivu sign again for $4.75M a year or even slightly higher. Anything under 5M a year is good.
Koivu on the open market gets over $5M a year EASY! Hell, Ryder got 4$M a year after the year he had last year!
I wouldn't be surprised if he signs for less. There are a few intangibles here that could be worth a decent amount of money.
First his desire to retire a Hab and to win as a Hab. Less money can mean more of the team sticking around.
Second his apparent chemistry with Tanguay. For far too long he hasn't had a winger that he played this good with (Rechi days?) so that can factor in his desire to stay and what price he'll ask, for he knows if he asks too much BG might not be able to keep Tanguay next season.
So basically its not only a question of $$. The intangibles can make a huge difference here. Add to it that the Habs can add a few years on his contract at 1$ Mil a year to bring down his cap hit (as he'll probably retire in a few years and he is signing before hitting the age limit for doing this).
Koivu is making $4.75M this year. I doubt Gainey is going to ask him to take a pay cut, especially if he continues to play the way he has early this season. I would be happy to see Koivu sign again for $4.75M a year or even slightly higher. Anything under 5M a year is good.
Koivu on the open market gets over $5M a year EASY! Hell, Ryder got 4$M a year after the year he had last year!
I don't necessarily thinks he gets a pay cut... I just think we can play with the reality of the Salary cap rules.
Give him 5, 4, 1 for three years... or 5, 4, 4, 1 for 4 years...
Something like that..
This his cap hit is low... but his salary for the next 2-3 years remains high.
I don't necessarily thinks he gets a pay cut... I just think we can play with the reality of the Salary cap rules.
Give him 5, 4, 1 for three years... or 5, 4, 4, 1 for 4 years...
Something like that..
This his cap hit is low... but his salary for the next 2-3 years remains high.
Everyone is happy.
I don't think you can have the salary drop by more than 50% from year to year. That being said, they should think about offering him something along the lines of 8-4-2-2 (not necessarily that, maybe more).
He'd be making roughly the same average salary over the next 3 years leading into retirement, and the huge front loading is both advantageous to him financially and kind of prestigious.
Then again, I'm not writing the cheques and who knows if Uncle George wants to pay that type of dough in a single year. Both he and the team would be better off if they looked into a pay scheme like that to help them stay competitive.
Lets see what people are saying in three or four years.... which is my point
The point is lowering the cap hit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price
I know about the home town discount thing and reducing the cap hit by adding years...but bringing Briere at 6.5 into the discussion and suggesting 3.5 for Koivu shows you how absurd it is.
Even with a home town discount and adding a year(s) to the contract, it's a huge slap in the face to Koivu for him to make close to half what Briere is...a guy that's playing 3rd line in Phillie and a PP specialist. I think Koivu all things being considered has more value than Briere.
If you are lucky as a GM you sign him to a deal like this 6 mil, 5 mil 5 mil 3 mil...19 over 4 years for a 4.75 cap hit. Expecting him to play for 6 mil, 5 mil 3 mil 2 mil 2 mil is pretty insulting to a player like Koivu.
Why will Koivu care what his cap hit is as long as he is getting paid... I'm pretty sure he never plays a game in that 5th year... so he'll understand its a business move to lower his cap hit but doesn't really affect him financially. I don't think Koivu is the kind of guy to say (well I'm helping the team, and I'm still getting paid my fair value... but damnit on paper my cap hit which effects me personally in no way looks a lot smaller than some other players; what a slap in the face to me by this team that is paying me 5 million but putting me down on their books as only being worth 3.5).... thats kinda ridiculous.
I wouldn't be surprised if he signs for less. There are a few intangibles here that could be worth a decent amount of money.
First his desire to retire a Hab and to win as a Hab. Less money can mean more of the team sticking around.
Second his apparent chemistry with Tanguay. For far too long he hasn't had a winger that he played this good with (Rechi days?) so that can factor in his desire to stay and what price he'll ask, for he knows if he asks too much BG might not be able to keep Tanguay next season.
So basically its not only a question of $$. The intangibles can make a huge difference here. Add to it that the Habs can add a few years on his contract at 1$ Mil a year to bring down his cap hit (as he'll probably retire in a few years and he is signing before hitting the age limit for doing this).
The things you are mentionning can keep him here at 4.5-5 mil instead of getting 5.5-6 mil on the UFA market...but as I said if he has a strong year he'd be nuts to take a pay cut...the Habs are not the only "winner" willing to pay players.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beakermania
The point is lowering the cap hit.
Why will Koivu care what his cap hit is as long as he is getting paid... I'm pretty sure he never plays a game in that 5th year... so he'll understand its a business move to lower his cap hit but doesn't really affect him financially. I don't think Koivu is the kind of guy to say (well I'm helping the team, and I'm still getting paid my fair value... but damnit on paper my cap hit which effects me personally in no way looks a lot smaller than some other players; what a slap in the face to me by this team that is paying me 5 million but putting me down on their books as only being worth 3.5).... thats kinda ridiculous.
It's not that he cares about cap hit, but if he wants to play 3 more years, he'll want at least 2.5-3 mil in that final year, not 1 mil.
Last edited by Beakermania*: 11-07-2008 at 02:50 PM.
once again , that's too long . Don't you realise that Saku is slowing down ? Don't you realise that Ben Maxwell could be a better player than an older Koivu , in 2 years ? that Desharnais and Chipchura could be also in the line-up and that they are all going to be at the league salary minimum , so less expensive than a Koivu ?
Guys , try to have a middle term vision at least . You see Saku having a good start , you also saw him having a good playoffs run last season , after a rest of 3 weeks , and you are ready to give him a 4 seasons contract ...ridculous !
once again , that's too long . Don't you realise that Saku is slowing down ? Don't you realise that Ben Maxwell could be a better player than an older Koivu , in 2 years ? that Desharnais and Chipchura could be also in the line-up and that they are all going to be at the league salary minimum , so less expensive than a Koivu ?
Guys , try to have a middle term vision at least . You see Saku having a good start , you also saw him having a good playoffs run last season , after a rest of 3 weeks , and you are ready to give him a 4 seasons contract ...ridculous !
Looks like you are underestimaing Saku. 5-4-3-2 is an excellent contract for both parts. Maxwell never played a single game in the NHL and the fact that you think that he could be better than Saku (at 35 in 2 years) is pure speculation. As for Desharnais, he may never play in the NHL. I think Saku can still be on the top 2 Centre for the next 2 years, that's why we pay him 5M and 4M. In 3 years (he would be 36), he'll probably play on the 3rd line, so 3M and 2M would be more than good for a player like Saku. Don't forget how much we payed for 3rd lines Centre like Bonk, Smolinsky and Lang. The fact it's better for the club to give Saku a long term deal is to minimize the cap.
once again , that's too long . Don't you realise that Saku is slowing down ? Don't you realise that Ben Maxwell could be a better player than an older Koivu , in 2 years ? that Desharnais and Chipchura could be also in the line-up and that they are all going to be at the league salary minimum , so less expensive than a Koivu ?
Guys , try to have a middle term vision at least . You see Saku having a good start , you also saw him having a good playoffs run last season , after a rest of 3 weeks , and you are ready to give him a 4 seasons contract ...ridculous !
Don't you realize he's gonna retire in 2 years..
The point is to have a low cap hit.. cuz the alternative is to give him 5 + 4.. and that's a cap hit of 4.5 million.
I don't think you can have the salary drop by more than 50% from year to year. That being said, they should think about offering him something along the lines of 8-4-2-2 (not necessarily that, maybe more).
He'd be making roughly the same average salary over the next 3 years leading into retirement, and the huge front loading is both advantageous to him financially and kind of prestigious.
Then again, I'm not writing the cheques and who knows if Uncle George wants to pay that type of dough in a single year. Both he and the team would be better off if they looked into a pay scheme like that to help them stay competitive.
Salary can't drop by more than 50% of the lower value year of a contracts first two years. So if a guy makes 5-4 in the first two years of his contract, it can't drop by more than 2 million a year from then on. It also can't go up by more than 4 million a year, though I have no idea why anyone would want a contract to do that. Also, in the first two years one year cannot be more than double the other.
So in theory a contract could go 8-4-2-league minimum.
