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Old
11-09-2008, 07:49 PM
  #1
Joe T Choker
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It is time!

Yes I know we try to keep the fire coach threads to a minimum over here, but after reading a bit of the official boards, I stumbled across this post and it made me fed up and you know what Jones is right, it's been time and I've been secretly on board to Fire Trotz, but I'm not hiding it anymore

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Old
11-09-2008, 08:07 PM
  #2
Enoch
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There are many things that irk me about Trotz, but I'll start with this one:

What most teams do to compensate for a lack of depth is to play their better players more. It has taken Trotz what...10 years....to start playing anyone more than 25 minutes a night - and that is Weber and Suter this year. Our best forwards are lucky to get 20 minutes a night. Meanwhile, it is common to see guys like Fiddler, Smithson, Ward, etc. to get 15 minutes a night. This is one decision that I have never understood. If we have trouble making up a scoring line, why are we limiting their minutes to begin with?

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11-09-2008, 08:51 PM
  #3
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11-09-2008, 09:05 PM
  #4
Pred303
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you guys are entirely too emotional.. the secret is simple, we simply are a mediocre team, because once again we're the lowest payroll team in the league.. then minus the sullivan and otrmeyers salaries.. so basically we have to compete with about two less regular players than any other team because of budget constraints..

our top two lines talent-wise are almost surely the weakest of any team in the league..

as for dumont and arnott playing 25 minutes +, well if they did, we'd give up an average of about 5 goals per game... 28 5 on 5 goals allowed this year.. dumont on ice for 14 of them.. coincidence?

typically this team has had to react to other teams because other teams top lines are so much more talented than ours.. so in an attempt to control those better top lines, our team is forced to matcha checking line to them instead of the other team to us.. another reason why our top lines minutes aren't huge and among forward lines we have to balance ice time more than top end talented teams..

and people over there are mad at trotz because arnott didn't go after the guy for the hit on ward? when ward jumped up himself and dropped the gloves?.. what was arnott supposed to do be a 3rd man in and hit him in the back of the head?..

tootoo has tried to expand his game on his own.. and we all know he had to do it, because it was to the point where if he even looked at anyone he would be called for something.. but surely hockey people can look at toots game and realize it's him trying to change and not knowing how to balance things and not the coaching staff "refraining him" right?

i expect the 17 year olds and women on the other board to say dumb things, it's what they always do.. but surely smarter fans can recognize our problem is that we're simply about an 85 point team talent wise..

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11-09-2008, 10:11 PM
  #5
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Don't use logic...


The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

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Old
11-10-2008, 01:47 AM
  #6
Enoch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pred303 View Post
you guys are entirely too emotional.. the secret is simple, we simply are a mediocre team, because once again we're the lowest payroll team in the league.. then minus the sullivan and otrmeyers salaries.. so basically we have to compete with about two less regular players than any other team because of budget constraints..

our top two lines talent-wise are almost surely the weakest of any team in the league..

as for dumont and arnott playing 25 minutes +, well if they did, we'd give up an average of about 5 goals per game... 28 5 on 5 goals allowed this year.. dumont on ice for 14 of them.. coincidence?

typically this team has had to react to other teams because other teams top lines are so much more talented than ours.. so in an attempt to control those better top lines, our team is forced to matcha checking line to them instead of the other team to us.. another reason why our top lines minutes aren't huge and among forward lines we have to balance ice time more than top end talented teams..

and people over there are mad at trotz because arnott didn't go after the guy for the hit on ward? when ward jumped up himself and dropped the gloves?.. what was arnott supposed to do be a 3rd man in and hit him in the back of the head?..

tootoo has tried to expand his game on his own.. and we all know he had to do it, because it was to the point where if he even looked at anyone he would be called for something.. but surely hockey people can look at toots game and realize it's him trying to change and not knowing how to balance things and not the coaching staff "refraining him" right?

i expect the 17 year olds and women on the other board to say dumb things, it's what they always do.. but surely smarter fans can recognize our problem is that we're simply about an 85 point team talent wise..
I'm not disputing the talent level/i.e. 85 point team, but I do think there are legitimate questions to Trotz's coaching style. We have went over them ad nausem in the past, which is why I posted something different in this thread. 303, I do think it is a bit absurd to believe that A) We need Smithson and Fiddler to get 15 minutes a night more than B) We need Arnott or Dumont to get 23-25 minutes a night. Yeah, Dumont isn't our best defensive forward - point readily conceded. Neither is Fiddler or Smithson for that matter...at even strength. Both are good penalty killers. Both suck at even strength. They are weak on the puck, and are often man-handled at even strength and along the boards. Most of their TOI is the other team cycling on us deep in our zone.

There should be a happy medium in here somewhere.....maybe there isn't with the talent we have on the ice at this point in time.

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Old
11-10-2008, 02:43 AM
  #7
Seth Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch View Post
I'm not disputing the talent level/i.e. 85 point team, but I do think there are legitimate questions to Trotz's coaching style. We have went over them ad nausem in the past, which is why I posted something different in this thread. 303, I do think it is a bit absurd to believe that A) We need Smithson and Fiddler to get 15 minutes a night more than B) We need Arnott or Dumont to get 23-25 minutes a night. Yeah, Dumont isn't our best defensive forward - point readily conceded. Neither is Fiddler or Smithson for that matter...at even strength. Both are good penalty killers. Both suck at even strength. They are weak on the puck, and are often man-handled at even strength and along the boards. Most of their TOI is the other team cycling on us deep in our zone.

There should be a happy medium in here somewhere.....maybe there isn't with the talent we have on the ice at this point in time.
For a forward to play 23-25 minutes a night, they would need to be able to play not only top even-strength minutes and be on the first PP unit, but they would also have to be significant penalty-killers as well. This simply is not the case with Arnott or Dumont and never will be, therefore the assertion that Arnott and Dumont should get 23-25 minutes a night is unrealistic on most nights, unless we go on about 10 PP's, which again would in turn hurt their even-strength minutes too.

As for P303, I was the one to really harp on Arnott in the chat room regarding not going after Sarich in Calgary. I stand by my comments too. If you watch a replay of the hit and the next five seconds you will see Sarich crush Ward, then Arnott skates by without a care in the world - while Ward is still down on the ice. It wasn't until after Arnott skated by that Ward got up and went after Sarich. In a building like Calgary, the home team is going to get a huge momentum boost from a hit like that...you must respond immediately and without hesitation. Arnott was right there in a perfect opportunity to grab Sarich and take up for his teammate, but instead he choose to watch his teammate lie on the ice and not do anything about it. Especially with the score of that game at the time, Arnott could have made a huge statement to the rest of the team...but ultimately it was Ward that stood up and sent the message that we were not going to go quietly into the night. Arnott would not have been a third-man in, Sarich hit Ward behind the net and then moved to the net front while Ward was down behind the net - Sarich was not involved in any ongoing altercation.

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Old
11-10-2008, 08:00 AM
  #8
darth5
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Look, I recognize we are asking this coaching staff to squeeze blood from a turnip here. And we are expecting the players we pay the most to carry more responsibility than they would elsewhere because of our low budget lineup. And P303's point about line matchups is kinda reinforced by our home (last chg) vs road record.
But they took the contracts, didn't they? Coaches and players alike. If we don't have the right guys available to play this style of game, then that is mostly DP's fault, with partial fault to the coaches for not making that plain (if they have not). I think this frustration is aggravated in that many think we have more talented and capable players either with the Ads or watched them sign elsewhere with no apparent interest for the Preds. And most of us on this board have realistic expectations of this squad, it is just really painful to watch it play out, giving up valuable points now when they will be so hard to generate in Jan-Apr.

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11-10-2008, 11:33 AM
  #9
Joe T Choker
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As much as I loathe Eklund's site, I believe it's time for some tough questions and some real answers


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11-10-2008, 02:18 PM
  #10
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It always amazes me that people think that the team isn't doing exactly what they're asking them to do. David Poile is a professional and I'm sure he considers all of those items on a regular basis. Isn't it possible that the alternatives are worse than the current situation?

Sure, let's get rid of Arnott and replace him with? Trade Legwand for whom? Can Trotz and replace him with a different kind of coach who might not do any better? Only seven teams in the league have been in the playoffs the last four seasons in a row. We're one of them.

So, let's can the coach with the two rookie defenseman, the two rookie forwards and the two less than experienced goalie because we all know a new coach will make that all better. He'll turn those two goalies into Patrick Roy, the defensemen will no longer have any faults and the forwards will be the second coming of Gretzky.

I understand what you're saying about asking the questions. I just believe that Poile is asking and will continue to ask the same questions. He's just not going to tell us that he is asking the questions.

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Old
11-10-2008, 02:26 PM
  #11
Enoch
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I've always maintained that Trotz has generally gotten more out of his team than the majority of other coaches. Last year's playoff performance and the season in general, were probably Trotz's best efforts as a coach. He had eerily similar results to the 03-04 campaign. With that said, I do think that Trotz's style has clear weaknesses. Those weaknesses are on clear display when we travel on the road and in our playoff losses. If we did overhaul the coaching staff, I'm not sure how much would change point wise. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if we took a step back in terms of our record. However, I do think our team would be more prepared for playoff hockey...I'm not sure Trotz 'gets' it in regards to how to win in the playoffs. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm right. The Sharks could just be one of those teams we are unable to beat (although regular season records would show differently). I will give him a pass against the Wings as we outplayed them in 04, almost winning that series, and this past year we simply did not have close to the talent to compete. Both of the Wings series went just about as well as could be expected. In fact, we were the only team to truly change the Wings last season...

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Old
11-11-2008, 10:42 AM
  #12
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[expect the 17 year olds and women on the other board to say dumb things, it's what they always do.. but surely smarter fans can recognize our problem is that we're simply about an 85 point team talent wise.. ]

Watch it there 303 ...

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Old
11-11-2008, 04:51 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyePredFan View Post
[expect the 17 year olds and women on the other board to say dumb things, it's what they always do.. but surely smarter fans can recognize our problem is that we're simply about an 85 point team talent wise.. ]

Watch it there 303 ...

sorry buckeye..thought you were older than 17... ..

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Old
11-11-2008, 07:27 PM
  #14
Enoch
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sorry buckeye..thought you were older than 17... ..

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Old
11-11-2008, 08:10 PM
  #15
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...whatever

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