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Old
11-13-2008, 11:42 AM
  #26
Pascal
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am I the only one who actually really likes him? He gives it all every match and he doesn't hurt us defensively.

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11-13-2008, 11:45 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
Bégin is better than Dandy. Dandy is a natural D, practices as a D, but has played tons of RW last year and this year. Now, he is playing his off wing, LW, and is considered less of a liability that Bégin is, and Bégin is a natural LW. Begin hits, Dandy hardly. Begin shoots, Dandy hardly. Begin brings energy, Dandy hardly. Begin blocks shots, Dandy hardly. Begin can fight, Dandy wouldn't even think of it. What a slap in the face this is to Begin! No he's not better than Kosto or Lapierre and no he's not as valuable as BGL, but come on, Dandy?
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11-13-2008, 11:50 AM
  #28
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Just waive him and give him a chance elsewhere... put him on re-entry waivers. We don't need him. Stewart, Chipchura, D'Agostini... plus all the bodies already in Montreal. I don't understand why Gainey keeps all those tweeners with fat contracts around. Dandenault 1.75, Laraque 1.5, Kostopoulos 1.0, Begin 1.0 .... a 4th liner shouldnt make more than 750K MAX, and now our 4th line combined every night is making around $4M. What a joke.

We're wasting money, those guys are nothing special. Well, I mean, Laraque is the best goon in the league and Kostopoulos can actually play... but Begin, Dandenault and even Lapierre to a lesser extent can easily be replaced by some of our AHLers.

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11-13-2008, 11:52 AM
  #29
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The guy's making a million bucks. Next year, he should see if the CH make him a minimum offer and if so, sign it, if not his agent should look for offers and when all avenues are exhausted, hang 'em up. When you retire, you retire for a long time, it's time for a guy like him when he's out of options.

If he physically can't, it's different, but he can still play a limited role, though it's tough for a proud guy to understand that.
No I agree...It's a tough decision for anyone to make, let alone a young guy who loves hockey as much as he does. I just worry about his body. He's hurt all the time and it doesn't stop him. Retirement might suck for him, but so does not being able to play with your kids. He's going to have back problems for the rest of his life as it is...It'll only get worse.

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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
Bégin is better than Dandy. Dandy is a natural D, practices as a D, but has played tons of RW last year and this year. Now, he is playing his off wing, LW, and is considered less of a liability that Bégin is, and Bégin is a natural LW. Begin hits, Dandy hardly. Begin shoots, Dandy hardly. Begin brings energy, Dandy hardly. Begin blocks shots, Dandy hardly. Begin can fight, Dandy wouldn't even think of it. What a slap in the face this is to Begin! No he's not better than Kosto or Lapierre and no he's not as valuable as BGL, but come on, Dandy?
I prefer him to Dandy as well, but Dandenault hasn’t been horrible this year and most (or all?) of our wins came with Dandy in the lineup.

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11-13-2008, 12:00 PM
  #30
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At the start of the year I would have taken Begin over Dandy too - I even thought Dandy should be waived and sent to Hamilton, BUT he's been effective this year. He's done the job of a 4th liner - basically not get scored on. No, he's not the energy presence that Begin is, but like I said earlier - other guys are doing that. At this point we're better off with another strong skater in the lineup, someone who has a tad more offensive upside, can play solid D (even on the blue line if there's an injury), and won'r be inclined to take inoppotune penalties.

Some of you guys make it sound like Begin should be guaranteed his job in perpetuity because he's been a loyal soldier in the past.

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11-13-2008, 12:05 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
...I prefer him to Dandy as well, but Dandenault hasn’t been horrible this year and most (or all?) of our wins came with Dandy in the lineup.
I don't think it boils down to a matter of preference for the coaching staff. Begin certainly brings more grit than Dandy, but with BGL and TKO in the line up they're already surplus to requirement in the facet of the game. IMO the key benefit of dressing Dandenault over Begin, is that Dandy gives the Habs ready to play insurance if a d-man is hurt during the game.

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11-13-2008, 12:11 PM
  #32
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What Begin brings is big hits and energy. Dandy and Laraque don't bring that. Kosto does but i find his hits to have less.. impact, especially when he hits the boards or falls

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11-13-2008, 12:29 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
I prefer him to Dandy as well, but Dandenault hasn’t been horrible this year and most (or all?) of our wins came with Dandy in the lineup.
That's true. Don't know how relevant Dandy's been in those wins and I still prefer Begin to him. Either way, I guess the first to third lines impact the final score more than the 4th line winger. It's just too bad for Begin and must be frustrating like hell for him.

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11-13-2008, 12:29 PM
  #34
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Anyone remember his hit on Maxime Talbot (2-3 years ago maybe?)?. I can't find it anywhere but man that hit was devastating, knocked Talbot out cold.
Do you remember his hit on Michael Nylander in the playoffs? That guy was walking all over the Habs then Bégin nailed him and the series shifted in favour of Montreal.

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11-13-2008, 12:37 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
Bégin is better than Dandy. Dandy is a natural D, practices as a D, but has played tons of RW last year and this year. Now, he is playing his off wing, LW, and is considered less of a liability that Bégin is, and Bégin is a natural LW. Begin hits, Dandy hardly. Begin shoots, Dandy hardly. Begin brings energy, Dandy hardly. Begin blocks shots, Dandy hardly. Begin can fight, Dandy wouldn't even think of it. What a slap in the face this is to Begin! No he's not better than Kosto or Lapierre and no he's not as valuable as BGL, but come on, Dandy?
You might want to say you personally prefer Begin. But Dandy has been solid this season so far in his role. Nobody can really blame him of making any mistakes. He also came into camp focused knowing about the situation he'd be facing.

As for your comparables, they're incorrect.

Begin had 44GP last year, has 3Goals while having 67Shots. Dandy in 61GP had 9G and 69Shots. It's not about who shoots more, it's about the quality of the shot. Dandy has a better one.

Begin in 44GP had 27Blocked shots, Dandy in 61GP had 26blks
Most of the blocked shots of Begin come when he's on the PK, Dandy barely played the PK, so his blks were more on ES.

Begin had 119 Hits, Dandy 70, it's the only thing Begin truly has over Dandy.But, Begin had 14PIM more than Dandy while having played around 20ish games less than him.
Begin did have 4 Fighting Majors which is accountable for 20PIM, but Dandy had a Game Misconduct which is 10min minimum.
Begin had 14Minor penalties, while Dandy had 12.

Begin had 11Giveaways when Dandy had 19. But Dandy played around 20 more games than him. This becomes balanced when you look at the takeaways, Dandy had 17 of them while Begin had 8.

As for the energy, Begin might hit more, but Dandy is much faster and more solid in the corners.
Begin can fight, but we don't need that with Laraque in the lineup, with the addition of guys like Bouillon/Komi/Lats and Kosto when he comes back.
He is courageous, but he won't be winning much of his fights, like Kosto.
Dandy wouldn't fight Thornton like Begin did, but he'd stick it up for his teammates like we saw last year when he did the superman jump after someone attacked Koivu.


All in all, I prefer Dandy in the lineup because Begin brings nothing more than Lapierre or Kosto. Seeing as Lapierre is already our energized grinder, Carbs wants to put someone with a little finishing touch. Dandy has a better one than Begin.

But you can be sure that if Dandy has a bad game, Begin will be put in. Maybe he'll play tonight seeing as he's been good to get under Chara's skin.
Guess we'll see, but I don't think it's a slap to the face, it's just the way it is in hockey. Dandy fits better on that line so far whether you like it or not.


Last edited by Kriss E: 11-13-2008 at 12:42 PM.
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Old
11-13-2008, 12:47 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
Do you remember his hit on Michael Nylander in the playoffs? That guy was walking all over the Habs then Bégin nailed him and the series shifted in favour of Montreal.
Yes and I believe this is the kind of thing that Dandy can't bring. Bégin even though he has limited skills can be a gamebreaker with his hitting ability. And he can still do it, no doubt. Last year, his hit on Tolpeko was devastating and earlier this year he hit Girardi pretty hard.

Dandy and Bégin should alternate 41 games each in my opinion. This would probably benefit Bégin's health too and could make him even hungrier each game.

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11-13-2008, 12:49 PM
  #37
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Do you guys remember when he took a high-sticking penalty after the 2nd period ended in the last game of the season, which cost us our play-off hopes?

Do you remember when he made a questionable hit that took a penalty vs. the Flyers and gave up the game winning goal on the PK, essentially ending our play-offs?

Yeah, he can change the game with a big hit, but he's a double edged-sword and I just don't think he brings enough discipline to the table to be worthwhile to insert him in the line-up.

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11-13-2008, 12:50 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by fredez View Post
Yes and I believe this is the kind of thing that Dandy can't bring. Bégin even though he has limited skills can be a gamebreaker with his hitting ability. And he can still do it, no doubt. Last year, his hit on Tolpeko was devastating and earlier this year he hit Girardi pretty hard.

Dandy and Bégin should alternate 41 games each in my opinion. This would probably benefit Bégin's health too and could make him even hungrier each game.
eventually, that means you pay 2M for a 4th liner. I know that it's just the situation they are in this year, they never envisioned Dandy as a 4th line winger when they signed him.

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11-13-2008, 12:54 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by WeThreeKings View Post
Do you guys remember when he took a high-sticking penalty after the 2nd period ended in the last game of the season, which cost us our play-off hopes?

Do you remember when he made a questionable hit that took a penalty vs. the Flyers and gave up the game winning goal on the PK, essentially ending our play-offs?

Yeah, he can change the game with a big hit, but he's a double edged-sword and I just don't think he brings enough discipline to the table to be worthwhile to insert him in the line-up.
Ugh you just had to ruin our moment.

Bégin can just leave now.

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11-13-2008, 12:59 PM
  #40
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I would personally prefer Begin to play over Laraque in games against teams like Detroit. I have been extremely disappointed in Laraque. I watched him play in Edmonton and with the Penguins and he was never this slow or immobile. I know its early and he needs to get in shape and he also has been a detterent, but my god is he ever slow. Begin is alot better hockey player then Laraque unfortunately for him Kostopolous, Dandenault, and Lapierre are playing good hockey right now.

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11-13-2008, 01:02 PM
  #41
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You might want to say you personally prefer Begin. But Dandy has been solid this season so far in his role. Nobody can really blame him of making any mistakes. He also came into camp focused knowing about the situation he'd be facing.

As for your comparables, they're incorrect.

Begin had 44GP last year, has 3Goals while having 67Shots. Dandy in 61GP had 9G and 69Shots. It's not about who shoots more, it's about the quality of the shot. Dandy has a better one.

Begin in 44GP had 27Blocked shots, Dandy in 61GP had 26blks
Most of the blocked shots of Begin come when he's on the PK, Dandy barely played the PK, so his blks were more on ES.

Begin had 119 Hits, Dandy 70, it's the only thing Begin truly has over Dandy.But, Begin had 14PIM more than Dandy while having played around 20ish games less than him.
Begin did have 4 Fighting Majors which is accountable for 20PIM, but Dandy had a Game Misconduct which is 10min minimum.
Begin had 14Minor penalties, while Dandy had 12.

Begin had 11Giveaways when Dandy had 19. But Dandy played around 20 more games than him. This becomes balanced when you look at the takeaways, Dandy had 17 of them while Begin had 8.

As for the energy, Begin might hit more, but Dandy is much faster and more solid in the corners.
Begin can fight, but we don't need that with Laraque in the lineup, with the addition of guys like Bouillon/Komi/Lats and Kosto when he comes back.
He is courageous, but he won't be winning much of his fights, like Kosto.
Dandy wouldn't fight Thornton like Begin did, but he'd stick it up for his teammates like we saw last year when he did the superman jump after someone attacked Koivu.


All in all, I prefer Dandy in the lineup because Begin brings nothing more than Lapierre or Kosto. Seeing as Lapierre is already our energized grinder, Carbs wants to put someone with a little finishing touch. Dandy has a better one than Begin.

But you can be sure that if Dandy has a bad game, Begin will be put in. Maybe he'll play tonight seeing as he's been good to get under Chara's skin.
Guess we'll see, but I don't think it's a slap to the face, it's just the way it is in hockey. Dandy fits better on that line so far whether you like it or not.
Statistically speaking, you just proved that every one of my assertions were right. Thanks.

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11-13-2008, 01:03 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
Statistically speaking, you just proved that every one of my assertions were right. Thanks.
I guess you don't know how to read stats then. Stay in School

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11-13-2008, 01:04 PM
  #43
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Just waive him and give him a chance elsewhere... put him on re-entry waivers. We don't need him. Stewart, Chipchura, D'Agostini... plus all the bodies already in Montreal. I don't understand why Gainey keeps all those tweeners with fat contracts around. Dandenault 1.75, Laraque 1.5, Kostopoulos 1.0, Begin 1.0 .... a 4th liner shouldnt make more than 750K MAX, and now our 4th line combined every night is making around $4M. What a joke.

We're wasting money, those guys are nothing special. Well, I mean, Laraque is the best goon in the league and Kostopoulos can actually play... but Begin, Dandenault and even Lapierre to a lesser extent can easily be replaced by some of our AHLers.

Stewart is not as good as Kostopoulos, Laraque,Begin or Dandenault. While Chipchura and D'Agostini are benefiting from the large amounts of ice time they are receiving in Hamilton.

Why would you want to bring either of them up to play on the 4th line? Or to be rotated in and out of the press box, which is what would happen.

As for Lapierre, he's been playing fine so there's no need to replace him with someone in Hamilton.

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11-13-2008, 01:05 PM
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Do you guys remember when he took a high-sticking penalty after the 2nd period ended in the last game of the season, which cost us our play-off hopes?

Do you remember when he made a questionable hit that took a penalty vs. the Flyers and gave up the game winning goal on the PK, essentially ending our play-offs?

Yeah, he can change the game with a big hit, but he's a double edged-sword and I just don't think he brings enough discipline to the table to be worthwhile to insert him in the line-up.
I totally agree with this! IMO this is the biggest reason why he is not in the lineup, your 4th line guys simply CANNOT take stupid penalties at crucial times in games, which Steve has done over and over.

Another theory I heard on La Zone is that Begin is an undisciplined forechecker, by that they meant that he often leaves his position or assigned wing to make a big hit or to forecheck and that Lapierre does the exact same thing and the Habs can't afford to have two guys like that on the 4th line. The guy who has speaking said that Kostopoulus and Dandenault are more disciplined players than Begin and play more within the system, leaving Lapierre to go wild and do what he does best.

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11-13-2008, 01:12 PM
  #45
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I guess you don't know how to read stats then. Stay in School
Wow, do you not read what you type?

Per game, you statistically proved that Begin hit more Dandy, Begin fought more than Dandy, Begin shot more than Dandy, Begin blocked more shots than Dandy.

I gave an opinion based on all the games I've seen. I would have assumed statistics supported my opinion, but I didn't know for sure. You gave facts based on statistics that directly contradict what you're trying to say and confirm what I thought. And you question my education?


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11-13-2008, 01:19 PM
  #46
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Wow, do you not read what you type?

Per game, you statistically proved that Begin hit more Dandy, Begin fought more than Dandy, Begin shot more than Dandy, Begin blocked more shots than Dandy.

I gave an opinion based on all the games I've seen. I would have assumed statistics supported my opinion, but I didn't know for sure. You gave facts based on statistics that directly contradict what you're trying to say and confirm what I thought. And you question my education?

He forgot the +/- where Dandy has a team low -11 (closest is -6 !!!) and Bégin is right in the middle of the pack with 0

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11-13-2008, 01:19 PM
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I totally agree with this! IMO this is the biggest reason why he is not in the lineup, your 4th line guys simply CANNOT take stupid penalties at crucial times in games, which Steve has done over and over.

Another theory I heard on La Zone is that Begin is an undisciplined forechecker, by that they meant that he often leaves his position or assigned wing to make a big hit or to forecheck and that Lapierre does the exact same thing and the Habs can't afford to have two guys like that on the 4th line. The guy who has speaking said that Kostopoulus and Dandenault are more disciplined players than Begin and play more within the system, leaving Lapierre to go wild and do what he does best.
I saw that too on La Zone. Danny Dubé is the best. But I thought they were more critical of Lapierre who, as the center, was always galloping all over the place and was often the first man in. If he's playing with BGL and Dandy, maybe he doesn't have a choice to be first man in as BGL is a little slow these days and Dandy is not the most aggressive winger out there. That's why they often (on 110% also) say that Lapierre would be a better winger than a centerman. Maybe with Bégin who'se very strong on the forecheck, sometimes eratically so, Lapierre would hold back a bit.

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11-13-2008, 02:00 PM
  #48
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Stewart is not as good as Kostopoulos, Laraque,Begin or Dandenault. While Chipchura and D'Agostini are benefiting from the large amounts of ice time they are receiving in Hamilton.

Why would you want to bring either of them up to play on the 4th line? Or to be rotated in and out of the press box, which is what would happen.

As for Lapierre, he's been playing fine so there's no need to replace him with someone in Hamilton.
You dont understand. Theres no need for this rotating kind of thing. Every night, we have 2 or 3 NHLers in the press box who are all making over one million... that is a waste of money. Get rid of some of those 4th liners, we have plenty of guys in Montreal, AND Stewart, Chipchura and D'Agostini are ready to contribute if need be.

That is what I meant and I thought it was pretty clear... I never said to bring them up RIGHT NOW. I said get rid of our surplus of 4th liners, save money, and if injuries happen bring up the kids: they can do the job and this will give them experience at the NHL level.

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11-13-2008, 02:50 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by gillyguzzler View Post
Bégin is better than Dandy. Dandy is a natural D, practices as a D, but has played tons of RW last year and this year. Now, he is playing his off wing, LW, and is considered less of a liability that Bégin is, and Bégin is a natural LW. Begin hits, Dandy hardly. Begin shoots, Dandy hardly. Begin brings energy, Dandy hardly. Begin blocks shots, Dandy hardly. Begin can fight, Dandy wouldn't even think of it. What a slap in the face this is to Begin! No he's not better than Kosto or Lapierre and no he's not as valuable as BGL, but come on, Dandy?
8-0-1 with Dandy in the lineup.... please do not question his contribution this team
------------------------

Seriously though begin is not the player he was 3 or 4 years ago, his body is broken down.... its sad to say, but Dandenault is a better PKer right now. He's faster, and is a better PKer.

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Just waive him and give him a chance elsewhere... put him on re-entry waivers. We don't need him. Stewart, Chipchura, D'Agostini... plus all the bodies already in Montreal. I don't understand why Gainey keeps all those tweeners with fat contracts around. Dandenault 1.75, Laraque 1.5, Kostopoulos 1.0, Begin 1.0 .... a 4th liner shouldnt make more than 750K MAX, and now our 4th line combined every night is making around $4M. What a joke.

We're wasting money, those guys are nothing special. Well, I mean, Laraque is the best goon in the league and Kostopoulos can actually play... but Begin, Dandenault and even Lapierre to a lesser extent can easily be replaced by some of our AHLers.

so we put him on re-entry waivers.... pay him 500K out of his 1million contract... and then we call up stewart to replace him and pay him his NHL salary which is 491,997... or D'ago whose NHL salary is 500,000 or best one yet Chipchura who gets 850,000....

how does this save us money??


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11-13-2008, 03:06 PM
  #50
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You dont understand. Theres no need for this rotating kind of thing. Every night, we have 2 or 3 NHLers in the press box who are all making over one million... that is a waste of money. Get rid of some of those 4th liners, we have plenty of guys in Montreal, AND Stewart, Chipchura and D'Agostini are ready to contribute if need be.

That is what I meant and I thought it was pretty clear... I never said to bring them up RIGHT NOW. I said get rid of our surplus of 4th liners, save money, and if injuries happen bring up the kids: they can do the job and this will give them experience at the NHL level.
The money is "wasted" no matter what. The guys in question count against the cap unless they get sent to the minors, which there is no reason to do. If they're claimed on re-entry waivers (nobody would claim them the 1st time) the Habs still have to pay half their salary and call someone up to replace them, resulting in the same amount of money being spent - possibly more as there is no bonus cushion this year and young players typically have bonuses structured into their contracts. You have to call up someone to replace them or the team would have no extra bodies in case of injuries, flu, etc. Every team carries 2-3 healthy extra players - depending on their cap situation.

There is no such thing as "getting rid" of players, as in the NFL. I guess you don't understand the system very well.

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