Semin has been on the ice for 24 non-PP goals scored and 7 ES goals allowed (+17). Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 non-PP goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Backstrom has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 5 ES goals allowed (+11). Only recently did they join the same line.
Malkin/Crosby/Staal +14
Crosby has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+3). Malkin has been on the ice for 18 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+5). Staal has been on the ice for 14 non-PP goals scored and 8 ES goals allowed (+6).
Marleau/Thorton/Setoguchi +14
Marleau has been on the ice for 23 non-PP goals scored and 16 ES goals allowed (+7). Thorton has been on the ice for 15 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+1). Setoguchi has been on the ice for 19 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+6).
Hossa/Datsyuk/Zetterberg +13
Hossa has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 9 ES goals allowed (+8). Datsyuk has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (+6). Zetterberg has been on the ice for 10 non-PP goals scored and 11 ES goals allowed (-1).
Alfredsson/Spezza/Heatley -3
Alfredsson has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 6 ES goals allowed (+2). Heatley has been on the ice for 6 non-PP goals scored 9 ES goals allowed (-3). Spezza has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (-2).
The numbers speak for themselves. The past was a different story, but one trio is clearly dominating the rest in 2008.
Statistics courtesy of NHL.com as of Nov 15 @ 10pm EST.
Its true that 2 of the three Detroiters helped bring home a championship, but winning is truly a team effort. Detroits defense was superb on that cup run. Imagine the Caps last season with Lidstrom, kronwall, rafalski etc.
Semin has been on the ice for 24 non-PP goals scored and 7 ES goals allowed (+17). Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 non-PP goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Backstrom has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 5 ES goals allowed (+11). Only recently did they join the same line.
Malkin/Crosby/Staal +14
Crosby has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+3). Malkin has been on the ice for 18 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+5). Staal has been on the ice for 14 non-PP goals scored and 8 ES goals allowed (+6).
Marleau/Thorton/Setoguchi +14
Marleau has been on the ice for 23 non-PP goals scored and 16 ES goals allowed (+7). Thorton has been on the ice for 15 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+1). Setoguchi has been on the ice for 19 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+6).
Hossa/Datsyuk/Zetterberg +13
Hossa has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 9 ES goals allowed (+8). Datsyuk has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (+6). Zetterberg has been on the ice for 10 non-PP goals scored and 11 ES goals allowed (-1).
Alfredsson/Spezza/Heatley -3
Alfredsson has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 6 ES goals allowed (+2). Heatley has been on the ice for 6 non-PP goals scored 9 ES goals allowed (-3). Spezza has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (-2).
The numbers speak for themselves. The past was a different story, but one trio is clearly dominating the rest in 2008.
Statistics courtesy of NHL.com as of Nov 15 @ 10pm EST.
Maybe if +/- was the determining factor in who is a better player.
Maybe if +/- was the determining factor in who is a better player.
Would you rather have the better player or the more effective player on the ice? And what is the difference?
The Caps trio is +45. The Detroit trio is +13. The Detroit trio scores a lot of goals but gives up a lot of goals. The Caps trio scores more goals and gives up less, despite inferior defense and inferior goaltending.
Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 ES goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Do you realize how ridiculous that number is? If he were to sustain even half that 20:3 ratio for an entire season, he would be guaranteed the Selke. It would be the most dominant two-way forward performance in a decade.
Would you rather have the better player or the more effective player on the ice? And what is the difference?
The Caps trio is +45. The Detroit trio is +13. The Detroit trio scores a lot of goals but gives up a lot of goals. The Caps trio scores more goals and gives up less. It's not even close.
Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 ES goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Do you realize how ridiculous that number is? If he were to sustain even half that ratio for an entire season, he would be guaranteed the Selke.
Well thankfully that isn't the determining factor for the selke. Also consider how terrible Detroit's defense has been this season. (If you watch the games you will know that defensive breakdowns are a huge cause for such a low +/-, not the forwards) The reason Detroit has been winning games is BECAUSE the offense has been doing so well.
wow this is tricky. I'll come back in 10 games to answer this poll
I think the Backstrom - Ovechkin - Semin line could be one helluva line years to come if they can stay together.. But then again I think wonders would happen if dats-hank-hossa line was to play together..
Well thankfully that isn't the determining factor for the selke. Also consider how terrible Detroit's defense has been this season. (If you watch the games you will know that defensive breakdowns are a huge cause for such a low +/-, not the forwards) The reason Detroit has been winning games is BECAUSE the offense has been doing so well.
Detroit's "terrible defense" is what other teams call an "above average" defense. Detroit, its forwards, and its fans have been spoiled by what was far and away the best defense in the NHL.
Defensively, Washington and Detroit are almost identical in stats so far this season. They've got about the same goals allowed and about the same PK %. The only difference is that the Ovechkin-Backstrom-Semin lines are scoring lots of goals and allowing few, whereas the Hossa/Datsyuk/Zetterberg are scoring lots of goals but allowing a lot too.
Would you rather have the better player or the more effective player on the ice? And what is the difference?
The Caps trio is +45. The Detroit trio is +13. The Detroit trio scores a lot of goals but gives up a lot of goals. The Caps trio scores more goals and gives up less, despite inferior defense and inferior goaltending.
Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 ES goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Do you realize how ridiculous that number is? If he were to sustain even half that 20:3 ratio for an entire season, he would be guaranteed the Selke. It would be the most dominant two-way forward performance in a decade.
This is a stupid argument because you can not compare the two trios in terms of +/-... Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Hossa have yet to play on the same line this season.
This is a stupid argument because you can not compare the two trios in terms of +/-... Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Hossa have yet to play on the same line this season.
That might be a valid point if the trio played on the same line for the whole season. But they've only played together 2-3 games. Note the large differential in goals scored between Semin, Ovechkin, and Backstrom.
They joined the same line last week and Semin has been out since he was high-sticked in the face.
Detroit's "terrible defense" is what other teams call an "above average" defense. Detroit, its forwards, and its fans have been spoiled by what was far and away the best defense in the NHL.
Defensively, Washington and Detroit are almost identical in stats so far this season. They've got about the same goals allowed and about the same PK %. The only difference is that the Ovechkin-Backstrom-Semin lines are scoring lots of goals and allowing few, whereas the Hossa/Datsyuk/Zetterberg are scoring lots of goals but allowing a lot too.
Once again, instead of paying attention to strictly goals for and against, watch both teams play and make a judgement from there. Rafalski has given the puck away at least 50% of the time he has had the puck. Lidstrom has been out of position. Lilja has given the puck away. Lebda has looked like he forgot how to play defense.
Considering I have watched Detroit play every game, I have an understanding on how terrible Detroit's defense is. It isn't average. It is incredibly terrible, and it is not helping their stats.
A single statistic is not the determining factor to pick how well a player is doing. Also I don't know how well Semin, Ovenchkin, and Backstrom are defensively but do you really believe they are solid two way players, at least in the same way as Hossa, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are?
A single statistic is not the determining factor to pick how well a player is doing. Also I don't know how well Semin, Ovenchkin, and Backstrom are defensively but do you really believe they are solid two way players, at least in the same way as Hossa, Zetterberg, and Datsyuk are?
No.
But they have been more effective, primarily because of possession. Watching that line at even strength, you'd think they were on the power play. In the games they've played together, I would guess they've faced less SOGs (on average) than any other line this season. I'll admit part of that is probably due to the fact that some teams only play their checking / shutdown lines against them; they rarely face the 1st line of some teams, except on the PK.
Detroit gave the same impression at times last season, but for whatever reason, the Datsyuk and Hossa lines are allowing a high number of SOGs this season. I have only seen a few Detroit games this season, but at times they've had trouble clearing the zone. You can't blame that all on the defense. Defense is a collaborative effort. And I still think Detroit fans have been spoiled; giveaways on defense aren't uncommon on most teams.
Semin has been on the ice for 24 non-PP goals scored and 7 ES goals allowed (+17). Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 non-PP goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Backstrom has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 5 ES goals allowed (+11). Only recently did they join the same line.
Malkin/Crosby/Staal +14
Crosby has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+3). Malkin has been on the ice for 18 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+5). Staal has been on the ice for 14 non-PP goals scored and 8 ES goals allowed (+6).
Marleau/Thorton/Setoguchi +14
Marleau has been on the ice for 23 non-PP goals scored and 16 ES goals allowed (+7). Thorton has been on the ice for 15 non-PP goals scored and 14 ES goals allowed (+1). Setoguchi has been on the ice for 19 non-PP goals scored and 13 ES goals allowed (+6).
Hossa/Datsyuk/Zetterberg +13
Hossa has been on the ice for 17 non-PP goals scored and 9 ES goals allowed (+8). Datsyuk has been on the ice for 16 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (+6). Zetterberg has been on the ice for 10 non-PP goals scored and 11 ES goals allowed (-1).
Alfredsson/Spezza/Heatley -3
Alfredsson has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 6 ES goals allowed (+2). Heatley has been on the ice for 6 non-PP goals scored 9 ES goals allowed (-3). Spezza has been on the ice for 8 non-PP goals scored and 10 ES goals allowed (-2).
The numbers speak for themselves. The past was a different story, but one trio is clearly dominating the rest in 2008.
Statistics courtesy of NHL.com as of Nov 15 @ 10pm EST.
Now do the same type of analysis for the playoffs. Where it matters.
Would you rather have the better player or the more effective player on the ice? And what is the difference?
The Caps trio is +45. The Detroit trio is +13. The Detroit trio scores a lot of goals but gives up a lot of goals. The Caps trio scores more goals and gives up less, despite inferior defense and inferior goaltending.
Ovechkin has been on the ice for 20 ES goals scored and 3 ES goals allowed (+17). Do you realize how ridiculous that number is? If he were to sustain even half that 20:3 ratio for an entire season, he would be guaranteed the Selke. It would be the most dominant two-way forward performance in a decade.
so marek malik was the most "effective" dman in the league in 06?
+/- has been shown to be a crap statistic. sure the washington guys have been great, but +/- surely isn't why.
so marek malik was the most "effective" dman in the league in 06?
+/- has been shown to be a crap statistic. sure the washington guys have been great, but +/- surely isn't why.
Shown to be a crap statistic? I don't think so.
Now, I will agree +/- doesn't tell everything about one individual player. It tells you about the effectiveness of a particular group of players (i.e. a line) on both offense and defense. Datsyuk and Lidstrom weren't +41 and +40 by accident last year, nor was it an accident that they were +40 and +36 the year before that.
Players recognized as having two-way skill are consistently among the league leaders in +/- and that is no coincidence.
But they have been more effective, primarily because of possession. Watching that line at even strength, you'd think they were on the power play. In the games they've played together, I would guess they've faced less SOGs (on average) than any other line this season. I'll admit part of that is probably due to the fact that some teams only play their checking / shutdown lines against them; they rarely face the 1st line of some teams, except on the PK.
Detroit gave the same impression at times last season, but for whatever reason, the Datsyuk and Hossa lines are allowing a high number of SOGs this season. I have only seen a few Detroit games this season, but at times they've had trouble clearing the zone. You can't blame that all on the defense. Defense is a collaborative effort. And I still think Detroit fans have been spoiled; giveaways on defense aren't uncommon on most teams.
Once again, watch a damn game and tell me that it is average defense.
Give me total takeaways from last year and selke nominations and you can see why the +/- is so high from last year.
Hossa and Datsyuk play against the top lines. Every. Single. Time. They play both the powerplay and PK. They are put in every situation against every line because they can do everything that a forward needs to do. Take a look at the playoffs (especially the finals) and see how dominant those three were. Datsyuk and Zetterberg shut down the top line (except for the Hoss) and Hossa was a scoring machine.
One stat only proves one thing, and that one thing is not the worth of a player.
