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PGT: Habs squeak one out in the shootout against Blues

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Old
11-16-2008, 10:39 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by shealy04 View Post
Love the lineup. Carbo's lines often make me feel sick but as long as he keeps AKost away from Kovalev I think we are heading in the right direction.

Meh, game wasn't that bad. 2 points is 2 points.
It"s a road game. They don"t have to give a show. Just get points.

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11-16-2008, 10:46 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by prevail View Post
Carbo had no choice, he has to bench some guys, send them a message


For some of you in this thread that wanna bash Carbo's decisions, he gets paid the big bucks, not you, he's played in the NHL, not you, he made the final call, not you. So why do you guys think it's okay to bash everything he does, it's beyond me.
First of all, I didn't bash Carbs.
Second, benching Lapierre is not sending a message to him especially since he's played great from the start.

It's also not because Carbs played in the NHL that he doesn't make any mistakes.

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11-16-2008, 11:42 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Uber Coca View Post
10 minutes into the 3rd period and I was saying to myself : "God I'm beginning to hate this team". But we won, and after putting all things in perspective, I got to say that this team's biggest problem is the turnovers. I don't know if it's the positionning or the fact that other teams put a lot of pressure on our defensemen, but the turnovers are killing us. Not only do they kill us, but the Habs have no defense-offense transition at all. And the transition was their best asset as a team IMO.

Ugly game, almost fell asleep. This better give these guys some confidence or it's going to be a long season.
This was Montreal's bread and butter last year...that and having teams underestimate their skill.

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Originally Posted by muzion View Post
listening to CKAC, Bouillon said he's allright, x-rays came back negative

Carbo is happy about the win and said we played a good game...
May sound silly but it is important to note...

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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
Yech. That's all I've got to say about tonight.

Should have lost this one to teach them a lesson about playing disciplined hockey.
Because this is the factor here.

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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
It's 2 points. The same mistakes were there, failure to do simple things like getting a puck deep on a line change, watching Jackman win battles with 3 guys all politely reaching in with their sticks. Maybe getting the 2 points will get a few guys going. Maybe A.Kost will feel a little bit more confident. Maybe. Maybe I'm just tired.
Maybe.

I coach (obviously) back home and I have to say that this is one of the games you hate being a coach afterwards. I listened to the game and also read the posts as the game went along. This game mirrored the CLB game (with score and effort from the team) last Friday and the only difference was the shootout.

Do many of you feel like games like this actually work against a coach? If I am out there and my team puts out a mediocre effort and a sloppy game but wins, it makes it harder to get through to them. Case in point: Kovalev. He hasn't been playing his usual dominate play and did not look good out there tonight...and he is the hero for the shootout winner. As a coach you now have to tell them that 'they played a good game' and got the win, but in actuality they aren't playing nearly to their potential.

Players respond with 'well, we won, didn't we?' or at the very least think it if you come into the dressing room and tear them a new one ofter a win. But this is where good coaching comes from. Holding players accountable for their effort and play, not for the outcome. Last year this team lost some games that they should have won and deserved to as well. As a coach you can come out and say you were proud of the effort and play, and the score comes secondary. Too many coaches lose jobs for praising wins that were not deserved, ripping a team for a loss when the team played excellent but didn't get the bounces.

Once you have a team that squeaks out wins when the effort isn't there they grown accustomed to the points coming from games when you don't have a full effort. And it spreads in a dressingroom. Once you have players playing for the points during the regular season and not for the effort, you have a recipe for failure in the playoffs.

Tonight was an example of the first, and only time will tell if telling the team that they played well will ultimately pay off.

Cheers

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Old
11-16-2008, 11:50 PM
  #104
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Real painful to watch the habs play right now. I couldn't stand seeing them in the Powerplay. I liked the new lines today but I do think that kosto should be switched with latendresse.

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11-16-2008, 11:53 PM
  #105
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Jeez. The biggest problem with our PP is that we can't seem to get one that is longer than 15 seconds before we take a stupid penalty.

anybody have any stats on how many times we have interrupted our own PP by taking a penalty?

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Old
11-17-2008, 12:01 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by prevail View Post
Carbo had no choice, he has to bench some guys, send them a message


For some of you in this thread that wanna bash Carbo's decisions, he gets paid the big bucks, not you, he's played in the NHL, not you, he made the final call, not you. So why do you guys think it's okay to bash everything he does, it's beyond me.
send a message...

- Latendresse was one of the very few who played decent against the Flyers -> demoted to 4th line
- Kostopoulos, who doesnt have enough talent to be on a 3rd line on a nightly basis -> promoted to 2nd line
- Lapierre who definitely works as hard as guys like Bégin or Dandeneault -> scratched

so, what message is he trying to send ?

If anything, I get the feeling that he's shuffling lines when things goes wrong cause he has no idea what to do to get the team back on track.



Following that logic, we shouldnt blame players either, they're NHLers not us... you know!

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11-17-2008, 12:16 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
send a message...

- Latendresse was one of the very few who played decent against the Flyers -> demoted to 4th line
- Kostopoulos, who doesnt have enough talent to be on a 3rd line on a nightly basis -> promoted to 2nd line
- Lapierre who definitely works as hard as guys like Bégin or Dandeneault -> scratched

so, what message is he trying to send ?

If anything, I get the feeling that he's shuffling lines when things goes wrong cause he has no idea what to do to get the team back on track.



Following that logic, we shouldnt blame players either, they're NHLers not us... you know!
I think Carbs is just trying to put a different dynamic into the trios to get out of the routine funk. His way of injecting "work" in everyone. It follows his comment that when you get used with certain linemates there's a certain regression in people's work ethic, people relying on other people, etc..

With new linemates you're pretty much forced to stay alert and work for it. Pleks for example will have to rely on cycling rather than trying fancy plays which obviously won't work with Kostopoulos. The switch is a breath of fresh air and I'm sure the players felt it too. Worked for Akost anyway.

In retrospect, considering the Habs had different line combinations and playing the night before, I think they gave a decent showing. They got the job done and got the 2 points. I'd be surprised to see these combinations hold up but they were needed imo to get out of the funk.

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11-17-2008, 12:35 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
I think Carbs is just trying to put a different dynamic into the trios to get out of the routine funk. His way of injecting "work" in everyone. It follows his comment that when you get used with certain linemates there's a certain regression in people's work ethic, people relying on other people, etc..

With new linemates you're pretty much forced to stay alert and work for it. Pleks for example will have to rely on cycling rather than trying fancy plays which obviously won't work with Kostopoulos. The switch is a breath of fresh air and I'm sure the players felt it too. Worked for Akost anyway.

In retrospect, considering the Habs had different line combinations and playing the night before, I think they gave a decent showing. They got the job done and got the 2 points. I'd be surprised to see these combinations hold up but they were needed imo to get out of the funk.
This, the line juggling, is IMO a perfect example of a coach who doesnt have a system in place, a solid one that is.

Sure, other coaches will try things sometimes too, but in Carbonneau's case it's always line juggling, line juggling and more line juggling...

Look at other teams, what will they try... if things goes wrong Babcock will splitt or reunite Datsyuk/Zetterberg for a few periods or a game or two - and he will stick with his decision of reuniting/splitting them. in Philadelphia Stevens may swith two wingers or swith Briere from C to LW that's it, Therrein may put Malking at LW for a period or two if his team is playing badly, and so on for the other coaches...

Theses coaches will never think of putting Downey with Datsyuk, Goddard with Crosby (maybe for a shift - intimidation, that's it), Briere with Riley Coté, etc...

when it comes to Carbonneau we saw the Streit or Kostopoulos on the 1st line experiment last year, and now we're seeing Kostopoulos (again) on a 2nd line...

that is NOT an example of a coach trying to get things back on track but rather a coach trying the same things over and over cause he doesnt know what else to do, and he doesnt have a solid system in place...

the simple fact that Kostopoulos is the guy to be promoted every single time something goes wrong is the perfect example of Carbonneau not having a system in place.

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Old
11-17-2008, 01:09 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
This, the line juggling, is IMO a perfect example of a coach who doesnt have a system in place, a solid one that is.

Sure, other coaches will try things sometimes too, but in Carbonneau's case it's always line juggling, line juggling and more line juggling...

Look at other teams, what will they try... if things goes wrong Babcock will splitt or reunite Datsyuk/Zetterberg for a few periods or a game or two - and he will stick with his decision of reuniting/splitting them. in Philadelphia Stevens may swith two wingers or swith Briere from C to LW that's it, Therrein may put Malking at LW for a period or two if his team is playing badly, and so on for the other coaches...

Theses coaches will never think of putting Downey with Datsyuk, Goddard with Crosby (maybe for a shift - intimidation, that's it), Briere with Riley Coté, etc...

when it comes to Carbonneau we saw the Streit or Kostopoulos on the 1st line experiment last year, and now we're seeing Kostopoulos (again) on a 2nd line...

that is NOT an example of a coach trying to get things back on track but rather a coach trying the same things over and over cause he doesnt know what else to do, and he doesnt have a solid system in place...

the simple fact that Kostopoulos is the guy to be promoted every single time something goes wrong is the perfect example of Carbonneau not having a system in place.
Well for one, Montreal doesn't have the luxury of having two franchise forwards that can change a game regardless of which lines they're on. So for Detroit and Pittsburgh, it's a simple question of spreading the wealth or making one lethal combination. With the Habs, You have forwards with skills but it's apparent that work ethic is missing and I feel that there was a hell of a lot more of that in this game. Say what you want with his weird combinations but the bottom line is the team is leaving St. Louis with 2 points.

As for not having a system in place, that claim is a little vague. Are you saying he deosn't have a system in jump starting slumping players or a system as in a definite team identity.

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Old
11-17-2008, 01:21 AM
  #110
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meh, the habs got the 2 points but it didnt feel like a slump breaker.

Beaker is right about the PP, Markov needs to go back on LD so we can watch him and kovalev pierce the box. I know the PP has been struggling since the playoffs when markov was still at LD, but they gotta try it at least with the way things are going right now.

I'm still looking for more positive signs from this team...

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11-17-2008, 01:32 AM
  #111
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Anybody hear the Lang interview on HIO? I don't think I ever heard more 'you knows' in a minute.

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11-17-2008, 01:50 AM
  #112
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BYE BYE Begin!
Seriously, Chipchura or Stewart will be more usefull to the team.At least it wont do them wrong or the team for that matter to try them out for a few games.
next is Dandenault.

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Old
11-17-2008, 02:41 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Well for one, Montreal doesn't have the luxury of having two franchise forwards that can change a game regardless of which lines they're on. So for Detroit and Pittsburgh, it's a simple question of spreading the wealth or making one lethal combination. With the Habs, You have forwards with skills but it's apparent that work ethic is missing and I feel that there was a hell of a lot more of that in this game. Say what you want with his weird combinations but the bottom line is the team is leaving St. Louis with 2 points.

As for not having a system in place, that claim is a little vague. Are you saying he deosn't have a system in jump starting slumping players or a system as in a definite team identity.
a system as in everybody know exaclty their role... everybody from 1st to 4th line know exaclty where to position themself in the defensive zone, who to cover and what to do exactly when gaining puck possession... same goes for the neutral zone, and, to some extent, the offensive zone...

I, on purpose, focused on Kostopoulos play in the 2nd, and the guy is the perfect example of playing a system... unfortunately fom him he lack the skills, and that's the main reason why he plays that way (that's the only way he KNOWS)...

Every single time he's on the ice and he's backchecking, he'll "watch" the left D (the one on his side). Every single time he has the puck in the neutral zone and a Habs is ahead of him, he gives him the puck. Every single time his line enters the zone he crash the net. Every single time there's a shot on goal he crash the net. Every single time the puck is dumped he goes chasing it in the corner. Every single time he has the puck in the neutral zone and has no option he dumps it in the opponent's corner. Everysingle time he's in the offensive zone and has no option to pass he'll shoot... Every single time he's on the ice he does thoses things, or at least tries to... it's systematic...

Looking at the other players tell you there's no system though, for example a forward will sometimes watch a pointmen, stay in the slot or go in the defensive corner to help the D, it could be a winger or a center... doesnt matter...

same for the neutral zone, let's say Kovalev (could be anybody else) has the puck and Higgins is ahead (and free of course) of him 3 or 4 ft, will he get a pass ? have to slowdown cause Kovalev is trying to deke all the opponents ? watch the puck being dumped ? I don't know, and chances are Higgins doesnt either...

There's a reason Kostopoulos doesnt look that bad on a 3rd or 2nd line even though he obviously doesnt have the skills to be there, same reason the 3rd line was OK when he was on it with Lang/S. Kostytsin... that reason is simple, his linemates knew exactly what he was going to do on any given situation, they knew they'd receive the pass in the neutral zone, they knew he would go in the corner to try to retrieve puck, they knew that if they shot he'd be there for the rebounds, the knew they didnt have to watch the left D in the D zone, they knew...

and that's also the reason it didnt work that well when Higgins replaced Kostopoulos on the 3rd, although we all know Higgins has WAY more talent that Kostopoulos... he just didnt knew what to do exactly... not his fault, he wasnt really taught by the coaching staff... who was to go in the corner ? depends... who was to go in the slot ? depends... who was to watch the left or right D ? depends... who was to crash the net ? depends...



It's true, in the examples I gave in my previous post I've put names of star players, game breakers... but that doesnt change anything... there's still a system in place that makes it possible for the players to maximise their potential... example ? Wings/Habs game, the Wings big line is on the ice, do you have ANY doubt there will be a player spending his whole shift in Price's jock ? exactly, and you can probably name that player (who's not a star) and when they switch lines, do you have any doubt another player will try, maybe not as well, try to get into Price's jock ? no you don't... cause it's the way they play, it's part of their plan...

And a plan, not necessarly the one the Wings, Pens or Sharks use, any plan actually... does Carbo have one ? from what I seen in the last three years, the awnser is NO.

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Old
11-17-2008, 05:37 AM
  #114
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Chris Lee is a terrible ref. How the NHL doesn't see this is beyond me.

Habs walk away with another win though undeserved. Having to go to shootout after all the powerplays that they had against a team like St-Louis is an embarassment. Considering the Blues didn't play particularly well and Kariya & Macdonald were hurt.

Yaa but Carbs thought is was one of our best games this year...

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11-17-2008, 06:15 AM
  #115
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Well for one, Montreal doesn't have the luxury of having two franchise forwards that can change a game regardless of which lines they're on. So for Detroit and Pittsburgh, it's a simple question of spreading the wealth or making one lethal combination. With the Habs, You have forwards with skills but it's apparent that work ethic is missing and I feel that there was a hell of a lot more of that in this game. Say what you want with his weird combinations but the bottom line is the team is leaving St. Louis with 2 points.
It's not just the two points. Carey Price didn't have to steal the game, either. Personally, playing the second of back to back games less than 24 hours apart, on the road, I thought the effort was good. The two goalposts on good shots during powerplays were unfortunate, because they could have broken the game open for Montreal.

As for the line juggling and the "two franchise forwards", it's clear from three years of Carbo watching that his two franchise forwards are Koivu and Kovalev, and uniting them on some rare occasions is one of the moves in his arsenal. He sent a clear message who his top three forwards are by the move last night, and they don't include Plekanec or Higgins. But putting the two speedsters together with a workhorse did make for a second line that hustled and had chances. Uniting the brothers also put some jump in their game, though I don't think Lang was all that great, despite his very important goal. On the other hand, sometimes talented players will score in situations that less talented players won't and Lang scored the needed goal, so I'll cut him some slack for now.

The fourth line was full of energy. Dandenault fought through checks and used his speed to pressure the Blues, Begin hit anything that moved and Latendresse got some hits in as well. I do think in the long run, Kosto ends up back on the fourth and Gui gets back with better scorers but it's no biggy for a night or two.

The combinations really weren't all THAT weird. If Carbs wants to keep the Big Three together, and eventually move Kosto back down, I would try this:

Koivu-Kovalev-Tanguay
Plekanec-AKost-Higgins
Lang-SKost-Latendresse
...Fourth line adapted to game needs

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Old
11-17-2008, 06:25 AM
  #116
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Maybe your forgot, but Komisarek is injured.
Maybe Komi is not injured all seasons.. my question is not related to Komi..

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