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Old
11-14-2008, 12:53 PM
  #1
Qubax
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Someone Convince me...

that I wasn't right at the beginning of the season.

I said that the Flames were being out coached, and needed and X's and O's type of coach.

Motivational guys like Keenan can only take you so far, and his leadership, so to speak doesn't really add much to an experienced team who has enough leadership within it's player personell.

So what does Keenan add from a coaching standpoint? What do Preston and Playfair really bring? Are they just long time hockey buddies of Sutter? Yes men?

The fact is a team with Kipper, Regehr, Phaneuf, Iginla etc should be gettting more out of themselves. Don't tell me that the Wild and Nucks aren't getting way more out of their teams then we are out of ours.

I believe that Sutter either has to man up and Coach the team he built....or bring in an X's and O's guy...a real student of the game to get the most out of these players.

The other issue I've had since the beginning is that the Flames don't have any real puck moving defencemen outside of Dion.... Gio is okay...but really our D would be great in 2004...but in todays game you need Dmen that can skate the puck out of the zone and make a decent pass...we don't have that...

So we can blame that on Darryl. Mind you I think other coaches may better utilize the D set we have. You can't chase the puck, when you can't skate!

I had also stated at the start of the year that the Flames only win when Kipper is playing well and/or Iginla and Phaneuf take the team on their backs. And you can say "well everyteam would struggle if their stars struggled" and while this is true...the fact is we have no Back up Plan...we have no up to date system in place....We don't have any coaching methods, no back to basics system play, no X's and O's to bail us out. Some teams get by on that and their personell...

For us if Iginla and Kipper aren't playing out of their minds we lose.

Example: When we won 6 straight, imbeded in that stretch was Kipper's finest work of the season and in that 10 day stretch Iginla was PLAYER of the Week....

So tell me I'm wrong..Show me..please

and sorry for rambling...just had to get that out.

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11-14-2008, 01:36 PM
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I completely agree. I've been secretly hoping the Flames would suffer early in the season just enough to get rid of Keenan! (yes, blame me for all losses!)

My question is this: Who would we get to replace him? Who IS an X's and O's coach that would fit the flames needs? And who isn't currently employed? Give me a list of targets. I can't think of any great coaches out there. Quennville would have been a nice fit I think...

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Old
11-14-2008, 01:51 PM
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Eb0la11
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WTF is an "X's and O's" coach. A guy that using a drawing board? We need a systems coach. We dont have a game plan. Every game we play is different cause we dont run any systems.

A coach like Tom Renney or Mike Babcock. Im not saying those guys. But a guy that runs systems and just gets wins through a team effort rather than a couple guys.

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Old
11-14-2008, 02:12 PM
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When do people start to blame the core? They quit on Sutter game seven vs the Ducks, quit on Playfair on the Road and well....they seem to quit on Keenan where and whenever the want to?

My personal feeling is, this "Core" doesn't have a backbone. I still love them and here is hoping they find one but even I doubt it at times.

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11-14-2008, 02:28 PM
  #5
Wags
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
My personal feeling is, this "Core" doesn't have a backbone. I still love them and here is hoping they find one but even I doubt it at times.
I am begining to agree there. Playfair was a systems guy (albeit offence first), but he was too hard on the players (or so i've heard from various sources).

I think there are multiple contributing factors to the Flames ineffectiveness, with coaching being one of them.

I think the Flames have a little of the Leaf's issues re: the Country Club atmosphere. I think this was picked up during the '04 cup run, and though alot of the player personelle has changed, the core that developed that "sense of entitlement" still remains the same. I believe that sense rubs off on other players when they arrive here.

Unfortunately, the only way to get rid of that is to blow up the core (not that I want to see this done...i don't). Of the core, the only player I think gives a complete, honest effort every single night is Regehr.

All I know is that with the team we have on paper, we should be better than we are.

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11-14-2008, 02:52 PM
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Really good blog by Shaune Vetter...kind of a "State of Affairs" type thing.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=17867

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Old
11-14-2008, 03:15 PM
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Really Wags it comes down to, who do you blame the Coach or the Core, you have to think one of those two things needs to be "fixed".

I do feel bad though it seems we've derailed yet another Coach type thread....sorry Qubax. Though to be fair did you really need someone to convince you?

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Old
11-14-2008, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
Really good blog by Shaune Vetter...kind of a "State of Affairs" type thing.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=17867

This is a very good blog. He makes some very good points. It aslo asks the questions about how to imporve the defense and who is the perfect partner for Phaneuf?

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Old
11-14-2008, 03:55 PM
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The flu has hurt the team the last couple games or so. There are alot of new faces that are trying to gel, and line combo's are hard to do with new players, especially when you have guys out of the lineup.
Plus Keenan is not the only coach that jumbles lines. They all do it, maybe he just does it moreso than others, but he is trying to find a spark.

Plus the "puck possesion" style that is trying to be implimented, it's gonna take time for that.

Would you rather have Krissy, and Tanguay instead? I don't think they'd be any better off, and possibly worse as this would cause Keenan to really blow his top.

Kipper has looked soft at times as well. Whether he and Keenan have mended the fences or not, he needs to toughen up. The Flames are paying him big bucks to stop pucks, and I think everyoen would agree he hasn't been doing that.

As for a new coach. Probably not the answer. In this case it lets the players off the hook. They have to perform, consistently.

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11-14-2008, 04:12 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Really Wags it comes down to, who do you blame the Coach or the Core, you have to think one of those two things needs to be "fixed".
I agree, and though I've been pretty hard on Keenan this year so far, I am starting to think it is the core. Perhaps all of the coaching changes have taken away some of the players accountability..."we are losing, this coach is no good either" type thing.

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Old
11-14-2008, 05:06 PM
  #11
Qubax
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Really Wags it comes down to, who do you blame the Coach or the Core, you have to think one of those two things needs to be "fixed".

I do feel bad though it seems we've derailed yet another Coach type thread....sorry Qubax. Though to be fair did you really need someone to convince you?
No, it was more rhetorical...but it brought up the issues at hand.

Look, I know we can blame the core. But the core in it's most basic form is Iginla. Iginla and then we'll say Regehr. They've been here the longest. They've had a "C" or an "A" for a long time..these guys are the core.

I don't think these guys have "quit" on Playfair, Sutter or Keenan.

To illustrate my point I bring up an example of a guy like Jeremy Roenick. When playing under Hitchcock's system in Philly, Roenick followed the rules. Everyone had to. I'm sure he didn't like it...and boy if Hitch hadn't taught him the direction his skate blades should face when going through the neutral zone, I'm sure he wouldn't have done it. JR listened...because he had to. Because in this situation he was coached....he was taken to X's and O's school or system play school or whatever you want to call it. JR was forced to listen and he did.

Without Hitch JR would have played nothing like Hitch intended. Fair to say? I think so.

here's the point if JR can listen to coaching, fit in with game plans and be apart of a system...would a person really doubt that Iginla and Regehr can not do the same?

If we had a team of Kyle Wellwood, Nik Zherdev, Marek Zidlicky, etc etc...then maybe I'd buy into the fact that the CORE was an issue...

but I just can't be convinced that Jarome Freaking -Mother Teresa- Fittest player - most dedicated teammate - Tig - Elvis - IGINLA is the problem...

Does anyone really believe THIS Iginla and Robyn Regehr...THE CORE...won't, cannot, refuse to listen to Keenan????? Or is it maybe more likely that Keenan doesn't have a great plan? HE's the Coach...What does he bring? I think it's pretty clear Jarome brings plenty to the table...

How is the Core being molded, taught, directed, lead. How are the Coachs being tacticians???

I don't see it. 29 other teams would LOVE to have the "Core" that we have. And not just for talent...but for being great leaders, and great listeners and great teammates. You think Ron Wilson woudl have more success coaching Grabovski and Pocahontas or Iginla and Regehr?? Pullezz the Core is fine.

(I'm not angry, just passionate)

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Old
11-14-2008, 05:50 PM
  #12
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Personally, I am not in a full panic (shocking I know ). This was always the transition year, and even though Sutter has done a respectable job filling the holes...it is still the transition year. Now I am not saying I'm throwing away the season (you all should know me better then that) just that my expections were never that lofty to begin with.

I want to see the Core and Keenan stay together this season. I want to see this through....whatever happens.


Last edited by Hyde: 11-14-2008 at 06:18 PM.
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Old
11-14-2008, 06:36 PM
  #13
Qubax
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Originally Posted by Hyde View Post
Personally, I am not in a full panic (shocking I know ). This was always the transition year, and even though Sutter has done a respectable job filling the holes...it is still the transition year. Now I am not saying I'm throwing away the season (you all should know me better then that) just that my expections were never that lofty to begin with.

I want to see the Core and Keenan stay together this season. I want to see this through....whatever happens.
Oh I'm not in panic mode either. We are a pretty good team. We are just limited in the senses that I illustrate above.

Pretty good team, but not able to make those next steps.

and for sure we will see this thing through, however it pans out. I've been a fan my whole life, that certainly ain't changing now.

and hey, on the bright side. Dustin Boyd is a freaking stud...

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Old
11-14-2008, 06:45 PM
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Eb0la11
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Pretty sure what our team is missing is creativity, talent/skill and drive. Hus and Tanguay had the first two elements but not the latter one. Most of the new guys have the 3rd element but not the first two. When are we going to stop relying on the same guys and expect different outcomes?

Kipper, Iginla, Regehr and Phaneuf has been our core for 4 seasons and hasnt delivered squat outside a division and 3 straight playoff defeats in the 1st round.

It seems pretty foolish to expect different results with the same kind of input into the equation.

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Old
11-15-2008, 12:00 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qubax View Post
I had also stated at the start of the year that the Flames only win when Kipper is playing well and/or Iginla and Phaneuf take the team on their backs. And you can say "well everyteam would struggle if their stars struggled" and while this is true...the fact is we have no Back up Plan...we have no up to date system in place....We don't have any coaching methods, no back to basics system play, no X's and O's to bail us out. Some teams get by on that and their personell...

For us if Iginla and Kipper aren't playing out of their minds we lose.
Except this year the Flames have had victories delivered by their 3rd and 4th lines, Bertuzzi and Cammeleri themselves, Iginla, Kipprusoff and the defense. It's quite amazing that a team with so many players capable of significantly contributing to a win, albeit some more frequently than others, has such inconsistent play. Back to the basics is a general statement to describe the change in focus required when a team is cold but does it apply? This team was horrid under an X's and O's coach in 06/07, at least on the road and we were crying for more accountability, someone who could lead the team, now we have Keenan. It's ridiculous to suggest this team will improve because we go back to a primarily strategy based coach when it worked out so miserably before with the same core of players.

It's like finding a rotten onion and peeling the layers off to see if it's still edible. First season, we change the coach, no change. Second season, we change some inconsistent, less than driven star players (which as a concession, would not be necessary if the team around those stars didn't depend on them being hot to win). Face it, the Flames needed to remove Huselius, not because he was no good but because he became a crutch for them and an unreliable one, he wasn't the measure of the team's success and failure, he was the cause, at least it seemed so.

Third season, so far, no change. The more layers we peel back, the closer we get to the core and the more likely it's the core of this team that's rotten. Of course, if we continue this path, this season's sacrificial lamb will be the defense (watch Aucoin and Vandermeer shoulder the blame for the team's lack of success ).

When it comes down to it, I was more excited about Glencross and Bourque than I was about Cammelari and Bertuzzi. Because, at best, I saw the stars we picked up as slight downgrades to what we had before but I saw our third line improve dramatically, with our secondary scoring.

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Old
11-15-2008, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wags View Post
Unfortunately, the only way to get rid of that is to blow up the core (not that I want to see this done...i don't). Of the core, the only player I think gives a complete, honest effort every single night is Regehr.
You don't think Iggy put in 100% a night?

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Old
11-15-2008, 01:55 AM
  #17
Qubax
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Originally Posted by The Comedian View Post
Except this year the Flames have had victories delivered by their 3rd and 4th lines, Bertuzzi and Cammeleri themselves, Iginla, Kipprusoff and the defense. It's quite amazing that a team with so many players capable of significantly contributing to a win, albeit some more frequently than others, has such inconsistent play. Back to the basics is a general statement to describe the change in focus required when a team is cold but does it apply? This team was horrid under an X's and O's coach in 06/07, at least on the road and we were crying for more accountability, someone who could lead the team, now we have Keenan. It's ridiculous to suggest this team will improve because we go back to a primarily strategy based coach when it worked out so miserably before with the same core of players.

It's like finding a rotten onion and peeling the layers off to see if it's still edible. First season, we change the coach, no change. Second season, we change some inconsistent, less than driven star players (which as a concession, would not be necessary if the team around those stars didn't depend on them being hot to win). Face it, the Flames needed to remove Huselius, not because he was no good but because he became a crutch for them and an unreliable one, he wasn't the measure of the team's success and failure, he was the cause, at least it seemed so.

Third season, so far, no change. The more layers we peel back, the closer we get to the core and the more likely it's the core of this team that's rotten. Of course, if we continue this path, this season's sacrificial lamb will be the defense (watch Aucoin and Vandermeer shoulder the blame for the team's lack of success ).

When it comes down to it, I was more excited about Glencross and Bourque than I was about Cammelari and Bertuzzi. Because, at best, I saw the stars we picked up as slight downgrades to what we had before but I saw our third line improve dramatically, with our secondary scoring.

Look, I'll just say this...My comments were refering to the Coaching and the Core. With regard to Bourque, Glencross etc... I love them. Our problem has been for years more about the bottom 6 then the Top 6...no more Mark Smith's etc etc. Now I know that Bourque and Glenny have fought their way up into the Top 9, but our forward depth on the whole, with Lombo hurt and not to forget Moss, is much improved overall.

Sutter has done a better job bringing in the FA's in Rene, Glenx, etc then the years where we brought in washed up Amonte's, Friesen, McCarty's. Those were years where Sutter proved he was being to loyal. And I think he's remained to loyal in his selection and retention of coaching staff.

and how was the coaching much different in 06-07 with Playfair? How was he a tactician. He wanted forcheck, puck pursuit. He always talked about that first push. We need to be ready for that first "Push". Great. I'm sure Babcock, Wilson, etc etc we concerned with our intricate tactician like coaching strategies. Fact is, we have been outcoached for years.

I think the one guy that can pull off what we need behind the bench is Darryl himself. Either that or stop with the old boys club of yes men and get a real, up to date coach. Meh, I can't see it happening.

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Old
11-15-2008, 05:07 PM
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Somebody View Post
The flu has hurt the team the last couple games or so. There are alot of new faces that are trying to gel, and line combo's are hard to do with new players, especially when you have guys out of the lineup.
Those are excuses. They just don't always decide to show up and play for the road games...just like last season.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Somebody View Post
Would you rather have Krissy, and Tanguay instead? I don't think they'd be any better off, and possibly worse as this would cause Keenan to really blow his top.
Don't really miss Huseless or Tangueray, although it was my sense that the latter would've finally elevated his play if there was any advancing into later playoff rounds. Nevertheless, they identified and removed the wusses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Somebody View Post
Kipper has looked soft at times as well. Whether he and Keenan have mended the fences or not, he needs to toughen up. The Flames are paying him big bucks to stop pucks, and I think everyoen would agree he hasn't been doing that.
No doubt, he looked more like Kiprusoft against SJ. Unless he's All-World, the team hasn't a prayer of making significant noise in the post-season. Starting to sound like a broken record here, but this fact cannot be overestimated: the coaching staff decided that riding him for 70-75+ regular season games (w/ the Western Conf. travel schedule) was a "great idea." Now, elements within the hockey department (specically the GM) must have deemed it necessary to force this situation, due to the high salary and "prove" that he's still a peer or Brodeur and Luongo. It didn't work the last 2 years. Keep tripping over that same log, and sooner or later, realize that there has to be another way around it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hit Somebody View Post
As for a new coach. Probably not the answer. In this case it lets the players off the hook. They have to perform, consistently.
It's not always the losses that have lessons to be learned. That game against Nashville was nothing to boast about. No way should that have been so close til the end. It should've been totally out of reach before the 3rd period. The Predators did not give up. They came out hitting in the 3rd period, like it was the 1st period to set the tone. When's the last gime the Flames displayed that much spunk? Before the lockout?

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Old
11-17-2008, 09:57 AM
  #19
Wags
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You don't think Iggy put in 100% a night?
Most nights yes, but not to the level that Regehr does...Iggy just has nights where he looks like he is struggling (what player doesn't though) and isn't always as good in the defensive zone as he used to be, which I think started under Playfair. Maybe its the style Regehr plays that makes me think he works harder game in and game out.

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