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Does Patrick really deserve the honor?

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Old
11-17-2008, 10:19 AM
  #26
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11-17-2008, 10:31 AM
  #27
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I'm not crazy about Roy getting his jersey retired. Especially this early. I mean honestly, if it takes as long as it does to see Robinson and Boom Boom get their just reward, why do we express the whole thing for Roy.


....and it not that in any way, shape or form, I am bitter with Roy. In fact the way he left Montreal doesn't bother me at all. The writing on the wall was there either way. Roy wasn't going to be in Montreal much longer. Before Houle came aboard, Serge Savard was already putting the pieces together for a Roy trade, so....

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11-17-2008, 10:35 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Psycho Papa Joe View Post
I think Durnan is the one from that era that should have had his number retired. His level of dominance over a short career was almost Dryden-like. I believe he wore #1, so he should have been jointly honoured with Jacques Plante.
Durnan was before my time. When I started following the Habs and collecting hockey cards, Gerry McNeil was the habs goaltender. Durnan must have been quite a goaltender as he played only 7 seasons with the Habs (he made the big team when he was 28) and he was on the 1st all star team 6 times winning 6 Vezina trophys.

However, I read somewhere he more or less abandoned the team in the middle of the 1950 playoffs. He lost the first 3 games with a GAA of 3.33 and was booed by the Forum fans. It broke his heart and he decided to quit right then and there in the middle of the playoffs.

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11-17-2008, 10:37 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
Durnan was before my time. When I started following the Habs and collecting hockey cards, Gerry McNeil was the habs goaltender. Durnan must have been quite a goaltender as he played only 7 seasons with the Habs (he made the big team when he was 28) and he was on the 1st all star team 6 times winning 6 Vezina trophys.

However, I read somewhere he more or less abandoned the team in the middle of the 1950 playoffs. He lost the first 3 games with a GAA of 3.33 and was booed by the Forum fans. It broke his heart and he decided to quit right then and there in the middle of the playoffs.
Wasn't there an issue with health ? Ulcers maybe ?

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11-17-2008, 10:47 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Wasn't there an issue with health ? Ulcers maybe ?
Here's what they say in the Legends of hockey:

"Durnan was an easygoing man, friendly and calm, but over time the stress of playing - and the mental and physical toll of so many minutes and games between the posts - began to wear him down. In 1950 he abruptly retired from the game at the age of 35, while still in his prime."

The best Bill Durnan biography is here:

http://www.habsworld.net/article.php?id=1694

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11-17-2008, 10:51 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Patrick Roy appeals to a desirable demographic though. The Durnan and Butch Bouchard fans aren't buying ipods by th etruckload, and certainly not jerseys.


Yeah, a bit cynical.
I agree that Roy's jersey retirement is appealing moreso to a key demographic. I am sure that the Habs are pandering a bit to people who are around my age and younger. In the long run, hockey is also a business, and the choice as to what would create more buzz and exposure between a Roy jersey retirement and a Durnan jersey retirement would be an easy one for marketing to make.

I've seen one cup that I got to watch all the games for, and one cup that I was wearing Habs pajamas with a Superman cape to bed every night they played, because I thought it brought the team good luck. Then, I saw the meltdown and the many dark years that followed. The contrast in the team's fortunes throughout my time following them has led to me lionizing Roy and what he did, this is something I openly admit.

I really find the cynicism regarding Roy's honouring to be an interesting divide between the different generations of Habs fans. I have gotten over my anger for what happened with Patrick and have moved on to remember the great things he did. However, my dad has mixed emotions regarding Roy, much like you do. Then again, my dad remembers Rejean Houle as a feisty forward before he remembers him as one of the worst GMs in the history of professional sports. He doesn't think he'll be watching the ceremony either. I wouldn't miss it for anything.

I think that our different experiences as Habs fans have given us different criteria for what a "great" Montreal Canadiens player is. I can only try to understand how great the 70's teams were by listening to him, reading about them and watching old games, but he saw them dominate in the present, and that has shaped his perspective. His cynicism with regards to Roy only makes me want to find out more about the past greats on this team, though.

That's part of what makes me wish that in this year's class of honoured players, there was Roy and a couple guys from earlier timeframes. That way, I'm finally seeing one of my heroes get honoured, but I'm also getting reminded and informed about great players that I was not lucky enough to watch and follow.

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11-17-2008, 10:54 AM
  #32
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The Roy affair changed the NHL.
The entire NHL learned what NOT TO DO.

For years coaches and owners rode their high horse and dictated all terms to the players. " it's my way of the highway"

The Habs in those years had not been winning and the outcry was that the players had no CH on their hearts, Trembley came in to take complete control of the players room and like Hitler, dictate all terms.

The thing is, this was NOT 1941 it was 1995 and top players felt that they had the right to add their two cents when things were going off.
Roy gave the room a real lashing at times due to lack of heart but this was seen as interferance on Roy's part so Trembley and Roy were headed for the fight.

the rest is history. but the result was, coaches now work with their top players and not start fights. GM don't blindly trade off star players just to back up a bad coach. coaches don't think of themselves as boss of the team but as much more part of the team and although still in control they are their to manage and together with the players go forward to a cup win.

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11-17-2008, 11:07 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Darz View Post
Before Houle came aboard, Serge Savard was already putting the pieces together for a Roy trade, so....
Often overlooked. That Red Wings game was the opportunity to trade him, not the reason.

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11-17-2008, 11:07 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post

Pretty well, you're a very ignorant young man.
Why am I ignorant??..
Because im not old enough to have seen Toe Blake nor Elmer Lach play an NHL game??..
Because I don't care if their Jerseys are retired??
Because im not bitter about Roy leaving 13years ago??

Blake and Lach have accomplished a great deal, but I have not seen them play one game. If you ask me who do you want to see get their jersey retired, Roy, Blake or Lach. Me saying Roy does not make me ignorant, or does it?.

Elmer Lach 664GP 623Pts, 1940-1954. 3Cups, part of Punch line. Art and Hart trophies once. HOF

Toe Blake 577GP 527Pts, 1934-1948. 2Cups, part of Punch line, 8cups as Coach. 4ASG, 1 Scoring leader, 1 Hart trophy. HOF

Patrick Roy 1029GP 551W 66SO, 247PO GP 151W 23SO, 4Cups(2mtl). Most GP, Reg Sea. Wins, PO GP, PO W and TOI. Conn Smythe 3x, Jennings 5x, Vezina 3x, 11ASG. Many say he redefined the Goalie position. HOF in his first year of eligibility.
Coaching career currently in place.
Granted, he played half his career in Colorado.


I'm not ignorant, I'm very well aware of the accomplishments those 3men have done for themselves.
But you do know that the major demographic of Habs fans now is people around my age group. Since I wasn't even born close to the date of Lach/Blake's last days in hockey, it shouldn't be that big of a surprise that I don't care about seeing Lach's or Blake's jersey retired.

Do they deserve it?..absolutely.
Do they deserve it more than Roy?..That's debatable.
Will I campaign for them to get their jersey retired??..Absolutely not.
Did I campaign for Roy's jersey to get retired??..Absolutely not.

I couldn't care less who gets its jersey retired first or at all, it just so happens the Habs announced they'd retire Roy's on Nov 22nd. So be it, no doubt he deserves it and seeing as I actually followed his career, I'm much more excited to see that ceremony than if it were Elmer Lach's.

If for all those reasons I'm ignorant, then I guess I am. But I just call it common sense.

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11-17-2008, 11:15 AM
  #35
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
If the Habs had then traded him to the Winnipeg Jets, he would never have become the winningest goalie in the league.
That's just, like, your opinion, man.



Seriously though this is silly, the answer to the thread titile is a big fat YES OF COURSE, and please don't open this once again.

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11-17-2008, 11:24 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by bwoar View Post
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

Seriously though this is silly, the answer to the thread title is a big fat YES OF COURSE, and please don't open this once again.
Do you own this board?

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11-17-2008, 11:29 AM
  #37
Blades 0f Steel
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2 Conn Smythes, but that doesn't even tell the whole story. Without Roy, the Habs have 22 Cups. Can you say that about any other Hab from the past 40 years?

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11-17-2008, 11:33 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RC51 View Post
The Roy affair changed the NHL.
The entire NHL learned what NOT TO DO.

For years coaches and owners rode their high horse and dictated all terms to the players. " it's my way of the highway"

The Habs in those years had not been winning and the outcry was that the players had no CH on their hearts, Trembley came in to take complete control of the players room and like Hitler, dictate all terms.

The thing is, this was NOT 1941 it was 1995 and top players felt that they had the right to add their two cents when things were going off.
Roy gave the room a real lashing at times due to lack of heart but this was seen as interferance on Roy's part so Trembley and Roy were headed for the fight.

the rest is history. but the result was, coaches now work with their top players and not start fights. GM don't blindly trade off star players just to back up a bad coach. coaches don't think of themselves as boss of the team but as much more part of the team and although still in control they are their to manage and together with the players go forward to a cup win.
Exactly. The whole thing was brewing for a long time. It's not like Roy just stopped caring for the team, he cared DEEPLY for the team and wanted them to work hard. He just didn't care about the coaching and management of the team. How do you lose 11-1? That cannot be just the goalies fault. Tremblay kept him in there because he had a bitter relationship with Roy, which is not fair at all. How can you just take that as a star player? This is how you're going to get treated? Yeah I'd demand a trade too. Judging by how the Habs did after 1995 it was clearly a sinking ship.

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11-17-2008, 11:42 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by rocketlives View Post
Do you own this board?
**** yeah I own this board, now you know. Any other dumb questions?

It's all been done to death and no new arguments are going to suddenly materialize from the ether.

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11-17-2008, 11:51 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Blades 0f Steel View Post
2 Conn Smythes, but that doesn't even tell the whole story. Without Roy, the Habs have 22 Cups. Can you say that about any other Hab from the past 40 years?
It's so hard to say. In 1986 and 1993, Roy won the Conn Smythe, deservedly so.

However, he also had many POOR playoffs, especially the years the Habs lost early to Boston (1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992). Also the 1989 team would probably have WON the Cup if Roy had not been outgoaled by Mike Vernon. That team had 115 points, much more than the 1986 and 1993 teams.

I don't like how Roy left the team, but he almost was traded by Serge Savard months before, only Serge was let go before he was able to pull the trigger (on a much better return than Houle got, too).

My ambivalence about Roy is mainly due to his inconsistent performances, and the fact that his better years were not with our team.

I have also been spoiled by witnessing so many Stanley Cups that two more don't impress me as much as they understandably impress the younger folks.

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11-17-2008, 11:58 AM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Why am I ignorant??..
Because im not old enough to have seen Toe Blake nor Elmer Lach play an NHL game??..
Because I don't care if their Jerseys are retired??
Because im not bitter about Roy leaving 13years ago??

Blake and Lach have accomplished a great deal, but I have not seen them play one game. If you ask me who do you want to see get their jersey retired, Roy, Blake or Lach. Me saying Roy does not make me ignorant, or does it?.

Elmer Lach 664GP 623Pts, 1940-1954. 3Cups, part of Punch line. Art and Hart trophies once. HOF

Toe Blake 577GP 527Pts, 1934-1948. 2Cups, part of Punch line, 8cups as Coach. 4ASG, 1 Scoring leader, 1 Hart trophy. HOF

Patrick Roy 1029GP 551W 66SO, 247PO GP 151W 23SO, 4Cups(2mtl). Most GP, Reg Sea. Wins, PO GP, PO W and TOI. Conn Smythe 3x, Jennings 5x, Vezina 3x, 11ASG. Many say he redefined the Goalie position. HOF in his first year of eligibility.
Coaching career currently in place.
Granted, he played half his career in Colorado.


I'm not ignorant, I'm very well aware of the accomplishments those 3men have done for themselves.
But you do know that the major demographic of Habs fans now is people around my age group. Since I wasn't even born close to the date of Lach/Blake's last days in hockey, it shouldn't be that big of a surprise that I don't care about seeing Lach's or Blake's jersey retired.

Do they deserve it?..absolutely.
Do they deserve it more than Roy?..That's debatable.
Will I campaign for them to get their jersey retired??..Absolutely not.
Did I campaign for Roy's jersey to get retired??..Absolutely not.

I couldn't care less who gets its jersey retired first or at all, it just so happens the Habs announced they'd retire Roy's on Nov 22nd. So be it, no doubt he deserves it and seeing as I actually followed his career, I'm much more excited to see that ceremony than if it were Elmer Lach's.

If for all those reasons I'm ignorant, then I guess I am. But I just call it common sense.

None of the above, that's just opinion. The manner in which you talk to someone having a civil conversation is what I think makes you ignorant.

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11-17-2008, 12:17 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
It's so hard to say. In 1986 and 1993, Roy won the Conn Smythe, deservedly so.

However, he also had many POOR playoffs, especially the years the Habs lost early to Boston (1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992). Also the 1989 team would probably have WON the Cup if Roy had not been outgoaled by Mike Vernon. That team had 115 points, much more than the 1986 and 1993 teams.
You're going to blame Roy for being outgoaled by Mike Vernon? He had a 2.09 GAA and a .920 SV% in the '89 run. What more do you want? He can't start scoring goals for the team. Plus the Flames had 117 points that season, so they didn't lose to lesser competition. He did very well against a team with Mullen, Loob, Gilmour, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis and Otto.

In 1990 Roy and the Habs beat the Sabres who had a better regular season record and they lost to the Bruins who finished 8 points above them and went to the Cup Finals that year.

In 1991 Roy and the Habs lost in the 2nd round to a Bruins team that finished 11 points ahead of them. They took them to 7 games, won two OT games and only allowed more than 3 goals from the Bruins once.

The '88 and '92 playoffs were the only real questionable ones. Out of 17 times he went to the playoffs in his career, that's damn good.

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11-17-2008, 12:27 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by BaseballCoach View Post
It's so hard to say. In 1986 and 1993, Roy won the Conn Smythe, deservedly so.

However, he also had many POOR playoffs, especially the years the Habs lost early to Boston (1988, 1990, 1991 and 1992). Also the 1989 team would probably have WON the Cup if Roy had not been outgoaled by Mike Vernon. That team had 115 points, much more than the 1986 and 1993 teams.

I don't like how Roy left the team, but he almost was traded by Serge Savard months before, only Serge was let go before he was able to pull the trigger (on a much better return than Houle got, too).

My ambivalence about Roy is mainly due to his inconsistent performances, and the fact that his better years were not with our team.

I have also been spoiled by witnessing so many Stanley Cups that two more don't impress me as much as they understandably impress the younger folks.
Poor playoffs by Roy's standards. Let's not forget his heroics in 94 though(2nd best career performance IMO), as well as 3 Vezinas, 4 Jennings & 5 All-Star appearances in the years he didn't win a Cup. Then he continued his stellar career in Colorado, which has to be taken into account if you're saying he had a lot of weak seasons here.

But to me, all that's all irrelevant as the 2 Conne Smythes are what sell me.

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11-17-2008, 12:28 PM
  #44
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You're going to blame Roy for being outgoaled by Mike Vernon? He had a 2.09 GAA and a .920 SV% in the '89 run. What more do you want? He can't start scoring goals for the team. Plus the Flames had 117 points that season, so they didn't lose to lesser competition. He did very well against a team with Mullen, Loob, Gilmour, Fleury, Nieuwendyk, MacInnis and Otto.

In 1990 Roy and the Habs beat the Sabres who had a better regular season record and they lost to the Bruins who finished 8 points above them and went to the Cup Finals that year.

In 1991 Roy and the Habs lost in the 2nd round to a Bruins team that finished 11 points ahead of them. They took them to 7 games, won two OT games and only allowed more than 3 goals from the Bruins once.

The '88 and '92 playoffs were the only real questionable ones. Out of 17 times he went to the playoffs in his career, that's damn good.
While I agree with you that Roy wasn't the reason we lost in 89 (the reason like you said was because Calgary was a great team), I'd also throw out 87 as a questionable palyoff year. Hayward replaced in the Quebec series I believe.

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11-17-2008, 12:29 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
None of the above, that's just opinion. The manner in which you talk to someone having a civil conversation is what I think makes you ignorant.
I suggest you look up the definition of ignorant, it means someone uninformed, lacking knowledge toward a certain subject.

If you didn't like the way I was responding to the post then, rude or arrogant are what you were going for, not ignorant.


Nonetheless, you've been on these boards for a long time sir. You know as much as I do how often new threads about the same subject can pop up. This has been talked about quite a number of times here and I was fed up.

Now, I find it pathetic that anybody can question Roy's retirement jersey. Even more so when it's solely due to the fact he told the GM he wasn't playing here anymore after the coach purposely left him in the game for 9Goals. In other word, Bitterness.
I had enough of the whiners, and I decided to post my comments of what I felt best represented my feelings on the matter.

Please spare me the ''if you don't like the thread, dont post'' remark.

I'm sorry if the aggressiveness of my post offended you. But seriously, there is no better way to tell the whiners that it's time to move on because they're pretty lame.


Last edited by Kriss E: 11-17-2008 at 12:37 PM.
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11-17-2008, 12:30 PM
  #46
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That's the whole thing about number retirements for me. There has to be legend associated with the name. Roy has legend, and regardless of how people feel about the stature of his accomplishments as a Hab the stories will be told that bear his name. And will be told for a long time.

Those are the guys that deserve to have their numbers raised to the rafters, and Roy is definitely a deserving candidate.

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11-17-2008, 12:33 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
I suggest you look up the definition of ignorant, it means someone uninformed, lacking knowledge toward a certain subject.

If you didn't like the way I was responding to the post then, rude or disrespectful are what you were going for, not ignorant.


Nonetheless, you've been on these boards for a long time sir. You know as much as I do how often new threads about the same subject can pop up. This has been talked about quite a number of times here and I was fed up.

Now, I find it pathetic that anybody can question Roy's retirement jersey. Even more so when it's solely due to the fact he told the GM he wasn't playing here anymore after the coach purposely left him in the game for 9Goals. In other word, Bitterness.
I had enough of the whiners, and I decided to post my comments of what I felt best represented my feelings on the matter.

Please spare me the ''if you don't like the thread, dont post'' remark.

I'm sorry if the aggressiveness of my post offended you. But seriously, there is no better way to tell the whiners that it's time to move on because they're pretty lame.

Kriss E, you didn't offend me, you don't have that kind of power, I just figure that anyone who reacts that strongly to a politely expressed opinion, just doesn't know any better, hence my use of the word.

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11-17-2008, 12:35 PM
  #48
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The reason Roy left was Tremblay not Patrick. Roy has gotten along with all his other coaches other than Mario, so obviously Patrick was not the problem.

Corey deserves equal blame for hiring 2 inexperienced people and screwing the franchise for 10 years. Houle and Tremblay set the team back 10 years and they are just recently getting back on track.

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11-17-2008, 12:38 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by RedScull View Post
That's the whole thing about number retirements for me. There has to be legend associated with the name. Roy has legend, and regardless of how people feel about the stature of his accomplishments as a Hab the stories will be told that bear his name. And will be told for a long time.

Those are the guys that deserve to have their numbers raised to the rafters, and Roy is definitely a deserving candidate.
86 and 93 are legendary as neither was expected. Both were fine teams, but he was the central story in both. The fact that I don't hold him in the same regard as I do a Beliveau, a Richard or someone else isn't really relevant.

As for the original post regarding why Roy, why now, when certain others haven't been honored, well, I don't know how they decide who goes up and who doesn't.

Like I said before, it is partly marketing, the largest demographic in attendance at the games saw Roy play.

You can't deny his accomplishments, imo, and as to any personal stuff, then and now, ahhh, I have my reactions to the guy, but things happen, it takes 2 to tango, [usually] and 86 and 93 is good enough for me.

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11-17-2008, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mcphee View Post
Kriss E, you didn't offend me, you don't have that kind of power, I just figure that anyone who reacts that strongly to a politely expressed opinion, just doesn't know any better, hence my use of the word.
So anybody that responds strongly towards an opinion that is ridiculous, is ignorant?

I didn't even insult the poster directly. I said anybody that's still bitter needs to move the **** on bcuz its pathetic. I guess the nastier word meaning fornication is still sensitive to your ears, for that, I apologize to you.

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