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#16 -- Flyers at Canadiens -- November 15, 2008 -- 7:00 PM (ET)

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Old
11-18-2008, 05:05 PM
  #651
phlocky
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Originally Posted by opus View Post
I'd love to know how that wasn't a head shot.

Wow, you guys seriously have your panties in a twist over this. I was NOT an elbow to the head, it was a shoulder/upper arm. Technically, this is NOT illegal. This is the possition both Collin and Paul have taken. It doesn't mean that either of them LIKE the hit and think there should be more, it's just that technically it's NOT illegal and can't result in disciplinary actions. The rules would have to be rewritten to include ANY AND ALL head shots. Personally, I think that NO head shots should be legal but that's not the case right now. The ONLY leg we have to stand on for being upset is that it was a bit late but that's a REALLY grey area as to how late is late enough to warrent a penalty or suspension. The best way to get revenge is to have someone Jap him with a sucker punch to the face and then to beat the **** outta him.

I'd also have butt-ended to the face that mother-****er who cross-checker Kukkonen to the face the other night too. If you cheap-shot one of my guys I don't get even, I get ahead.

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11-18-2008, 05:08 PM
  #652
Jester
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The car analogy works perfectly. If an illegal hit occurs, it's entirely on you. That doesn't negate the existence of a "legal" hit in the slightest...but given the downside to these hits, the onus HAS TO BE on protecting the guys getting hit from behind.

And, in the conclusion of your analogy, you'd almost certainly have your license revoked...and you're insurance would be buying the person a new car. If they were injured you'd get sued almost assuredly, and likely have absurd insurance premiums.

You can drive however you want when you're behind someone, but if something bad happens it's on you. Completely.

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11-18-2008, 05:26 PM
  #653
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
And, in the conclusion of your analogy, you'd almost certainly have your license revoked...and you're insurance would be buying the person a new car. If they were injured you'd get sued almost assuredly, and likely have absurd insurance premiums.
Lol, relax...there's no need for a realistic conclusion to what would happen if I went for a drive playing carhockey.

I still think your analogy is no good. And I still think the victims are often at fault in these scenarios and it is why the issue will never be completely resolved, although I do think there needs to be more attention paid to the whole thing leaguewide. In general, I disagree with you on the subject and don't think your points are all that valid. But it's the type of thing that could be argued about all day, so I think we can end it here.

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11-18-2008, 05:56 PM
  #654
MiamiScreamingEagles
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Here are a few more quotes in Wayne Fish's article with Bettman also commenting:

Quote:
http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/ne...8-1623346.html

Although the league reviewed the play and found no reason for discipline, Holmgren is making it clear the puck shouldn’t stop there.

Rather, he believes, maybe the players have to be more vocal in calling for mutual respect of each other.

If that means bringing all 700 players (or possibly just the teams’ union reps) into a conference room in the middle of the summer to discuss the matter, then so be it.
Quote:
“To me, I think that’s something the players need to talk about as a group,” Holmgren said Monday.
Quote:
“It’s one of those things where we have to be careful,” Holmgren said. “It’s a physical game. Sometimes hits like that are going to happen. I don’t think Kovalev went in with the intent … he surely didn’t elbow Simon in the head. Whether his shoulder or part of his arm hit Simon’s head, there’s a fine line there.

“Nobody likes to see players get hurt. Simon is a little sensitive based on what happened last year. I think we all understand that. It’s a gray area. I think the league is doing the best it can to cut down on it, and the players have to get after it as well.”
Quote:
“You know, it’s interesting to me that when we came back from the work stoppage a lot of our fans complained that we had taken the physicality out of the game by opening up the speed and skill,” Bettman said.

“We didn’t do that — hitting is actually up. There are more body checks in the game than we had before the work stoppage. But if you say you can’t have contact with the head, you are going to reduce the amount of checking in the game, and you are going to change the way the game is played.

“We don’t like any concussions. We don’t like any hits to the head, but before we run down this road, think about what the consequences to the game are going to be.”

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11-18-2008, 06:15 PM
  #655
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This quote does not sound like Gary Bettman puts the players' health first:

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“We don’t like any concussions. We don’t like any hits to the head, but before we run down this road, think about what the consequences to the game are going to be.
You seriously believe you need to think about what will happen to the game if you change rules to protect your most valuable asset (the players)? If the players aren't the first priority, you shouldn't be running this league.

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11-18-2008, 06:43 PM
  #656
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Think about the consequences to the game if someone were to die on the ice...

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11-18-2008, 10:49 PM
  #657
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MiamiScreamingEagles View Post
Here are a few more quotes in Wayne Fish's article with Bettman also commenting:

Is it me or is Bettman talking out of both sides of his mouth? He seems to contradict his "we take shots to the head seriously" comment. There is no such thing as a "good" or "OK" shot to the head, they're all bad and they should all be disciplined in the same manner.

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11-18-2008, 11:43 PM
  #658
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Wow, you guys seriously have your panties in a twist over this. I was NOT an elbow to the head, it was a shoulder/upper arm. Technically, this is NOT illegal. This is the possition both Collin and Paul have taken. It doesn't mean that either of them LIKE the hit and think there should be more, it's just that technically it's NOT illegal and can't result in disciplinary actions. The rules would have to be rewritten to include ANY AND ALL head shots. Personally, I think that NO head shots should be legal but that's not the case right now. The ONLY leg we have to stand on for being upset is that it was a bit late but that's a REALLY grey area as to how late is late enough to warrent a penalty or suspension. The best way to get revenge is to have someone Jap him with a sucker punch to the face and then to beat the **** outta him.

I'd also have butt-ended to the face that mother-****er who cross-checker Kukkonen to the face the other night too. If you cheap-shot one of my guys I don't get even, I get ahead.
I agree with a lot of that. It wasn't technically an elbow. My biggest problem with the hit as I've said before is that Kovalev seemed to completely ignore everything below the neck. No contact was made there. If we have a leg to stand on, it's that. But then it comes down to intent, and I'm just not sure about intent. The "finishing his check" argument is pretty solid. So is the "only the head got hit" argument that I'm making. That gets followed up by the "stuck his head out" and "keep your head up" arguments. Then it gets into even more grey areas and hypotheticals. So screw it, IMO.

And Jester, your car analogy is horrendous.

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11-18-2008, 11:46 PM
  #659
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Think about the consequences to the game if someone were to die on the ice...
10x ratings

"We're bigger than US Stee- er, UFC".

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11-19-2008, 01:39 AM
  #660
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Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Is it me or is Bettman talking out of both sides of his mouth? He seems to contradict his "we take shots to the head seriously" comment. There is no such thing as a "good" or "OK" shot to the head, they're all bad and they should all be disciplined in the same manner.
Yep. There's no such thing as a "good" hit that causes another player to suffer a concussion.

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11-19-2008, 05:40 AM
  #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Is it me or is Bettman talking out of both sides of his mouth? He seems to contradict his "we take shots to the head seriously" comment. There is no such thing as a "good" or "OK" shot to the head, they're all bad and they should all be disciplined in the same manner.
Bettman couldn't find his ass in the dark, he has no clue what the hell he's talking about.

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11-19-2008, 08:29 AM
  #662
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And Jester, your car analogy is horrendous.
Do explain, rather than just throwing it out. My entire perspective on hits from behind is that the hitter is the responsible party. That players have lost the benefit of the doubt on those hits because the damage they are inflicting and will ultimately inflict is simply too high.

In car collisions, if you hit someone from behind...you're the responsible party.

It's bordering on a SAT analogy in its correlation factor.

You may disagree with with the level of responsibility I'm imposing on the guys dishing out from behind...but that is a question of the level of responsibility you wish to place on hitters, particularly in the case of hits like Jones and Kostopoulos, both of whom were never in a position to legally hit the player they hit. If that's the case, we simply disagree...but I'll just state flatly I think the "it was partially the victims fault" is a horribly irresponsible attitude and it's what is contributing to the problem on the ice and the trend we're on towards something truly catastrophic happening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flyersfan97 View Post
Is it me or is Bettman talking out of both sides of his mouth? He seems to contradict his "we take shots to the head seriously" comment. There is no such thing as a "good" or "OK" shot to the head, they're all bad and they should all be disciplined in the same manner.
They're idiots. All of them.

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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Yep. There's no such thing as a "good" hit that causes another player to suffer a concussion.
Not entirely true in the spirit of the discussion. Not every hit that causes a concussion is "illegal," thus it is technically a "good hit." If we want to parse the semantics down we can, but the Stevens hit on Lindros was perfectly legal and therefore there was nothing wrong with him dishing that out. The problem is brushing aside the illegal hits the way they do. There are obviously grave risks to playing the sport of hockey...and it's up to the league and officials to mitigate the potential danger of playing the sport as much as possible by removing illegal plays that cause injuries.

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11-19-2008, 08:51 AM
  #663
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Putting any degree of blame whatsoever on the victim in these situations is just flat out stupid. Of course you can always do something differently to avoid situations, but if you wanted to take your personal liability out of everything in life you wouldnt be doing much of anything. Same goes on the ice... players protect themselves but you still have to skate towards the boards, you still have to turn around the boards...

The liability is on the person who is directly causing the hit in the first place, and the only person who can truly control it - the guy making the hit. Sure accidents happen, and it's not always viscous and with bad intent, but if there is a strict policy with no exeptions on dangerous hits players will learn to be more careful when players can be seriously injured

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11-19-2008, 11:29 AM
  #664
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Not entirely true in the spirit of the discussion. Not every hit that causes a concussion is "illegal," thus it is technically a "good hit." If we want to parse the semantics down we can, but the Stevens hit on Lindros was perfectly legal and therefore there was nothing wrong with him dishing that out. The problem is brushing aside the illegal hits the way they do. There are obviously grave risks to playing the sport of hockey...and it's up to the league and officials to mitigate the potential danger of playing the sport as much as possible by removing illegal plays that cause injuries.
I'm talking in a moral sense, and something the players should be aware of if they give a **** about each other's lives at all. It's not okay to concuss someone, regardless if the hit is labelled clean, legal, illegal, dirty, etc. Accidents happen, but I'm tired of hearing that a clean hit concussed someone. You don't **** with the brain.

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11-19-2008, 11:37 AM
  #665
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Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
I'm talking in a moral sense, and something the players should be aware of if they give a **** about each other's lives at all. It's not okay to concuss someone, regardless if the hit is labelled clean, legal, illegal, dirty, etc. Accidents happen, but I'm tired of hearing that a clean hit concussed someone. You don't **** with the brain.

That's a tough call, it's a high speed game with contact...concussions are going to happen.

Studies have shown that a mouth guard limits 'can' limit the extent of concussions. Obviously not with a direct blow to ones head, more so in absorbing the snapping of the jaw upon impact.

...why hasn't the NHL made mouthguards mandatory?

Fact of the matter is this. Players are 'too cool', and they need to 'look good'. Helmets are made smaller (Thank you Gretzky!) and it's all about image, where as it should be more about protection. Ie: NFL.

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11-19-2008, 11:41 AM
  #666
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That's a tough call, it's a high speed game with contact...concussions are going to happen.

Studies have shown that a mouth guard limits 'can' limit the extent of concussions. Obviously not with a direct blow to ones head, more so in absorbing the snapping of the jaw upon impact.

...why hasn't the NHL made mouthguards mandatory?

Fact of the matter is this. Players are 'too cool', and they need to 'look good'. Helmets are made smaller (Thank you Gretzky!) and it's all about image, where as it should be more about protection. Ie: NFL.
I understand they are going to happen, I just don't think we should justify them as okay. It's not okay to concuss someone.

Mouthguards might help, but so would getting rid of the hard plastic caps on shoulder pads and elbow pads.

Also, the checking to the head penalty has not impeded the physicality of the OHL one bit since its inception.

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11-19-2008, 11:45 AM
  #667
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I understand they are going to happen, I just don't think we should justify them as okay. It's not okay to concuss someone.
Absolutely. As long as everybody knows it's a risk. High speed sport + physical contact = injuries. Concussions are going happen. Doesn't make them 'okay'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dig Out Your Soul View Post
Mouthguards might help, but so would getting rid of the hard plastic caps on shoulder pads and elbow pads.
Amen! But the NHL/NHLPA don't se this...they don't want to protect themsleves...from...themselves.

Sad when you think about it.

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Also, the checking to the head penalty has not impeded the physicality of the OHL one bit since its inception.
...yup!

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11-19-2008, 11:53 AM
  #668
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Absolutely. As long as everybody knows it's a risk. High speed sport + physical contact = injuries. Concussions are going happen. Doesn't make them 'okay'.
It's fine to debate the legality of a hit until we're blue in the face, but I think people lose sight of the larger issue - the players' health.

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