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The Legacy of Ken Holland

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11-24-2008, 07:24 PM
  #26
DarkReign
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Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
7/14/98 - Traded C Petr Sykora + 1999 3rd round pick (#91/Mike Comrie) + 1999 4th round pick (#124/Alexandr Krevsun) to Nashville Predators for RW Doug Brown


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2/27/04 - Traded RW Tomas Fleischmann + 2004 1st round pick (#29/Mike Green) + 2006 4th round pick (#122/Luke Lynes) to Washington Capitals for C Robert Lang
x 10000

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6/24/06 - Traded 2006 1st round pick (#29/Chris Summers) + 2006 5th round pick (#152/Jordan Bendfeld) to Phoenix Coyotes for 2006 2nd round pick (#41/Cory Emmerton) + 2006 2nd round pick (#47/Shawn Matthias)


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2/26/07 - Traded C Jason Williams to Chicago Blackhawks for LW Kyle Calder

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11-24-2008, 07:31 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Doc, it's waay to early to say McLellan is completely working out. There's no denying that he's having an impact but they had great regular seasons under Ron Wilson as well. I'm not hating either, but too many people have already called him great. I think Sharks fans have every right to be excited though.
My point was you can't really know how well your assistant coach is working out for your team until you give him the wheel. Lewis failed, Mclellan has done well. I don't think that his failure on the team was purely because Holland wasn't smart with his decision for a predecesor. I think it was a low risk move to put a guy who has been used to the coaching style that won 3 cups at the helm.

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11-24-2008, 07:44 PM
  #28
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Holland

Done a super job(with some great help). However, no one is perfect:

1) Hate losing guys on waivers for nothing-to this day I still find it HARD to believe that Holland could not have dealt Ozzie for a least a couple of mid round picks. If I recall correctly, there were at least 5 00/01 non playoff teams that had a GAA of over three. Surely one of them could have used a Cup winning tender. If Holland (and Babcock) hadn't insisted on carrying an 8th dman(Chelios), Quincey would still be on the team.

2) Not a great fan of trade deadline deals either-see the four deals in '99. Lang did squat for the Wings and he cost us a first rounder(which could have been Green). Since I wanted the Wings to sign Stuart as a free agent, had no problem with that move and loved him staying with the team.

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11-24-2008, 08:07 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by KevinP View Post
Done a super job(with some great help). However, no one is perfect:

1) Hate losing guys on waivers for nothing-to this day I still find it HARD to believe that Holland could not have dealt Ozzie for a least a couple of mid round picks. If I recall correctly, there were at least 5 00/01 non playoff teams that had a GAA of over three. Surely one of them could have used a Cup winning tender. If Holland (and Babcock) hadn't insisted on carrying an 8th dman(Chelios), Quincey would still be on the team.

2) Not a great fan of trade deadline deals either-see the four deals in '99. Lang did squat for the Wings and he cost us a first rounder(which could have been Green). Since I wanted the Wings to sign Stuart as a free agent, had no problem with that move and loved him staying with the team.
Yeah can you imagine the Wings with Mike Green! , I'm in agreement.

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11-24-2008, 08:12 PM
  #30
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No because I doubt the Wings would've drafted him.
Quote:
If Holland (and Babcock) hadn't insisted on carrying an 8th dman
Err, Quincey would be the 8th defensemen if Chelios wouldn't have been re-signed.

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11-24-2008, 09:33 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinP View Post
Done a super job(with some great help). However, no one is perfect:

1) Hate losing guys on waivers for nothing-to this day I still find it HARD to believe that Holland could not have dealt Ozzie for a least a couple of mid round picks. If I recall correctly, there were at least 5 00/01 non playoff teams that had a GAA of over three. Surely one of them could have used a Cup winning tender. If Holland (and Babcock) hadn't insisted on carrying an 8th dman(Chelios), Quincey would still be on the team.

2) Not a great fan of trade deadline deals either-see the four deals in '99. Lang did squat for the Wings and he cost us a first rounder(which could have been Green). Since I wanted the Wings to sign Stuart as a free agent, had no problem with that move and loved him staying with the team.
That was one of those years we just got hammered by injuries. If I remember right,but Chelly and Ulf were hobbled, Larionov broke a thumb and couldn't pass/shoot worth a lick and Ozzy had damaged a knee against LA but had to play because Ranford went into meltdown. I'm convinced that if he had been blessed by a bit better health, a third cup would have been lifted.

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11-24-2008, 10:33 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
My own tweaks.
Lewis was one of the good ol' boys, and his style was doomed for failure. the stark contrast from Bowman's style (with which we had much success) should have been a red flag, but we learned the hard way (as did Boston) he's not head coach material.

Lilly's new contract is responsible for hindering the development of many of our prospects. not only has he bumped Big E, Meech, and Q down the depth chart (or out of town), but with his cap hit vs Q or Meech [slightest of downgrades, if at all, but been there, argued that], we're not able to call up Helm or Leino to fill in when Cleary gets an eye infection, or Franzen tweaks his knee, or Homer's back flares up. instead we've got a 7-years-past-prime McCarty, and/or our runt extra d-man filling out our forward lines.
i have less of a problem with his first three years here, and i know he's having a decent year, but i still think he's costing us more than he's earning us.

Q didn't necessarily have to be better than Big E, E was getting sent down no matter how well he did in camp. now, not only is Q showing how wrong people here were about him w/ LA, but Meech & Lebda are hammering home the point by stinking up the joint.

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11-24-2008, 10:38 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
Lewis was one of the good ol' boys, and his style was doomed for failure. the stark contrast from Bowman's style (with which we had much success) should have been a red flag, but we learned the hard way (as did Boston) he's not head coach material.

Lilly's new contract is responsible for hindering the development of many of our prospects. not only has he bumped Big E, Meech, and Q down the depth chart (or out of town), but with his cap hit vs Q or Meech [slightest of downgrades, if at all, but been there, argued that], we're not able to call up Helm or Leino to fill in when Cleary gets an eye infection, or Franzen tweaks his knee, or Homer's back flares up. instead we've got a 7-years-past-prime McCarty, and/or our runt extra d-man filling out our forward lines.
i have less of a problem with his first three years here, and i know he's having a decent year, but i still think he's costing us more than he's earning us.

Q didn't necessarily have to be better than Big E, he was getting sent down no matter how well he did in camp. now, not only is Q showing how wrong people here were about him w/ LA, but Meech & Lebda are hammering home the point by stinking up the joint.
Sorry but playing top line minutes will give you confidence and make you play well. I'm not sorry at all Quincey left. But I guess Holland didn't really notice his "potential" when obviously Quincey didn't prove that he had what it takes? Lilja has set up the last 3 first goals and he is playing great out there.

He is playing well worth the money. Good defensemen cost money. That is the NHL.

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Old
11-24-2008, 11:40 PM
  #34
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Someone seems to be unfamiliar with how the Wings have been developing for years.

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11-25-2008, 09:09 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Millen View Post
But that was Doug Brownov were talking about

Really i hated the deal then but Kenny is loyal to his guys..
sometimes a little too loyal....

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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
Have to do what you have to do... they lost Brown in the expansion draft and wanted him back.
Yea i understand that, hollands only downfall is he just does not know when to cut the cord...

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11-25-2008, 09:10 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkReign View Post




x 10000







Well, the odds of us picking Mike Green are 1 in a million; but since we love our first round defensemen; who knows.

Williams for Calder was pretty brutal; ill agree.

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11-25-2008, 09:16 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FissionFire View Post
2/27/04 - Traded RW Tomas Fleischmann + 2004 1st round pick (#29/Mike Green) + 2006 4th round pick (#122/Luke Lynes) to Washington Capitals for C Robert Lang

10/13/08 - Lost D Kyle Quincey to Los Angeles Kings on waivers
Shockers, amongst others.

And FissionFire, UNBELIEVABLE work!


Last edited by Filppula: 11-25-2008 at 09:25 AM.
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Old
11-25-2008, 09:20 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by zetterberg40 View Post
Well, the odds of us picking Mike Green are 1 in a million; but since we love our first round defensemen; who knows.

Williams for Calder was pretty brutal; ill agree.
Why?

Williams and Calder both suck but Calder had an expiring contract. You think Williams was going to do anything against the Ducks?

Wings won that trade.

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11-25-2008, 09:25 AM
  #39
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I cry my self to sleep every night thinking about losing Fleischmann.

And Cory Cross, my goodness what was Holland thinking? Every other deal must have fallen through but did he HONESTLY think that Cross was even worth getting, and giving up anything for?

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11-25-2008, 09:43 AM
  #40
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The Williams for Calder trade had nothing to do with getting Calder and everything with getting rid of Williams. It was a classic NBA style trade where we got an expiring contract.

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11-25-2008, 10:37 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
The Williams for Calder trade had nothing to do with getting Calder and everything with getting rid of Williams. It was a classic NBA style trade where we got an expiring contract.
We should do that with Lebda...

Lebda for Luke Richardson or Jason Strudwick?

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11-25-2008, 11:42 AM
  #42
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I feel like there should be an entry included to mark the dates that Holland's Red Wings killed the Avalanche as a Cup-contending franchise, right?

Maybe another one which notes the date Detroit destroyed the Canucks organization and Dan Cloutier's career?

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11-25-2008, 03:57 PM
  #43
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I feel like there should be an entry included to mark the dates that Holland's Red Wings killed the Avalanche as a Cup-contending franchise, right?

Maybe another one which notes the date Detroit destroyed the Canucks organization and Dan Cloutier's career?
Ouch, HD. That is cynical even for you

But anytime the Dive fail, I smile.

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11-25-2008, 04:27 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by HockeyinHD View Post
I feel like there should be an entry included to mark the dates that Holland's Red Wings killed the Avalanche as a Cup-contending franchise, right?

Maybe another one which notes the date Detroit destroyed the Canucks organization and Dan Cloutier's career?
LaCroix! Tear down this franchise!

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11-25-2008, 04:33 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Holiday View Post
Sorry but playing top line minutes will give you confidence and make you play well. I'm not sorry at all Quincey left. But I guess Holland didn't really notice his "potential" when obviously Quincey didn't prove that he had what it takes? Lilja has set up the last 3 first goals and he is playing great out there.

He is playing well worth the money. Good defensemen cost money. That is the NHL.
if HD didn't disagree w/ me, he'd dissect/mutilate your first paragraph, justifiably.

as simply and nicely as i can put this:
playing first line minutes does not make someone play well; should be obvious, but it apparently needs to be said. what Q's doing on a bad team not only speaks to that, but speaks to the fact that you're also wrong he 'obviously' lacked what it takes to make it in the NHL.
he's better than 3-4 of the defensemen that beat him to roster spots this year, but he was a victim of circumstance in that he didn't have the experience any of the other 8 have. he's now a benefactor of circumstance in that LA was down a few d-men, and he's gotten a fair chance to crack an NHL roster.
we're still one of the best teams in the league, and it won't be the downfall of the franchise, but Kenny's not infallible and he got this one wrong.

and like i said, Lilly's been decent to this point. what i'm saying is it could be Helm, Leino, Ericsson, or even Quincey getting those first-goal assists; can't happen thanks to Lilja's contract. i know, could be, but i'd trust them to do it more often than this freak stretch by Lilly.

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11-25-2008, 05:58 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacK View Post
if HD didn't disagree w/ me, he'd dissect/mutilate your first paragraph, justifiably.

as simply and nicely as i can put this:
playing first line minutes does not make someone play well; should be obvious, but it apparently needs to be said. what Q's doing on a bad team not only speaks to that, but speaks to the fact that you're also wrong he 'obviously' lacked what it takes to make it in the NHL.
he's better than 3-4 of the defensemen that beat him to roster spots this year, but he was a victim of circumstance in that he didn't have the experience any of the other 8 have. he's now a benefactor of circumstance in that LA was down a few d-men, and he's gotten a fair chance to crack an NHL roster.
we're still one of the best teams in the league, and it won't be the downfall of the franchise, but Kenny's not infallible and he got this one wrong.

and like i said, Lilly's been decent to this point. what i'm saying is it could be Helm, Leino, Ericsson, or even Quincey getting those first-goal assists; can't happen thanks to Lilja's contract. i know, could be, but i'd trust them to do it more often than this freak stretch by Lilly.
If you honestly don't think being put as the top dog doesn't make you confident and play like it you have never played hockey. It does loads for a player's confidence. Ask Johan Franzen.

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Old
11-25-2008, 06:13 PM
  #47
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Ouch, HD. That is cynical even for you

But anytime the Dive fail, I smile.
Personally, my biggest grin comes from remembering that the Wings destroyed Roy in not one but TWO citites.

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11-25-2008, 06:27 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by jacK View Post
if HD didn't disagree w/ me, he'd dissect/mutilate your first paragraph, justifiably.

as simply and nicely as i can put this:
playing first line minutes does not make someone play well; should be obvious, but it apparently needs to be said.
It does, however, make you more productive.

Look, Quincey's getting a boatload of PP time in LA. Other than that he has all of 4 ES points in 16 games. Lilja has 6 ES points. Lebda has 3. The two Wing dmen get much less IT and lesser offensive players.

Quote:
he's better than 3-4 of the defensemen that beat him to roster spots this year, but he was a victim of circumstance in that he didn't have the experience any of the other 8 have.
The suggestion that Detroit would let a superior player go who is also cheaper just because he didn't have enough 'experience' is laughably misguided. There is nothing which even remotely suggests such a decision was made.

Quote:
but Kenny's not infallible and he got this one wrong.
Possibly. If he is 'wrong' it's because he made an incorrect assessment of a players talent, not that he has some pre-existing standard where players who don't have x number of NHL games get run out the door automatically if there are guys with more NHL games ahead of them on the depth chart from the previous year.

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11-26-2008, 03:15 AM
  #49
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It does, however, make you more productive.

Look, Quincey's getting a boatload of PP time in LA. Other than that he has all of 4 ES points in 16 games. Lilja has 6 ES points. Lebda has 3. The two Wing dmen get much less IT and lesser offensive players.



The suggestion that Detroit would let a superior player go who is also cheaper just because he didn't have enough 'experience' is laughably misguided. There is nothing which even remotely suggests such a decision was made.



Possibly. If he is 'wrong' it's because he made an incorrect assessment of a players talent, not that he has some pre-existing standard where players who don't have x number of NHL games get run out the door automatically if there are guys with more NHL games ahead of them on the depth chart from the previous year.
And there is Babcock and some other hockey experts there. How come none of them realized Quincey was so great? How come none of the experts outside the Wings organization did not say that the Wings lost such a great player in Quincey?

Other than Quincey some of those comments about the Williams and Lang trade are plain ridiculous.
The Williams trade was very good to great. The Wings just had to get rid of Williams, that was all.
The Lang trade again was very good to great.

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11-26-2008, 05:46 AM
  #50
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Doc, it's waay to early to say McLellan is completely working out. There's no denying that he's having an impact but they had great regular seasons under Ron Wilson as well. I'm not hating either, but too many people have already called him great. I think Sharks fans have every right to be excited though.
I do not understand how people forget things so quickly. There's nothing new with the Sharks, they have been doing pretty good/great during the season as well. They struggle to prove they can do damage in the playoffs, so McLellan stats his season when the regular season is over and the playoffs start.

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