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Old
07-14-2004, 03:28 PM
  #26
SingnBluesOnBroadway
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
who the hell cares ... seriously
NYIsles1 is one of the better Islander posters. He is an honorable foe.

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07-14-2004, 03:43 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Son of Steinbrenner
Its an interesting debate on a quiet july day. I happen to disagree with every word the nyisles has wrote. Lets face it the Rangers have been terrible the past 7 years but when they play on the road they sell out. When the Islanders go on the road (i'm not talking jersey) they aren't the draw the rangers are. Fair or unfair.

I think the Islanders may be the least liked local team. This isn't an insult to islander fans because there fans are fiercly loyal they just aren't as popular as the other second class teams in town. (mets nets jets)
fair enough

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07-14-2004, 03:45 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway
NYIsles1 is one of the better Islander posters. He is an honorable foe.
if u say so, just not anislander fan or to see why someone would come here talking nyi hockey or what vever.. ya know what i mean

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07-14-2004, 04:18 PM
  #29
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Edge all due respect, who ranked them in the bottom 10 percent of the league for what. Link please? You always write these things but never produce anything to back it up that fans can clearly examine.
My job isn't to provide you with all the links in the world. There was something that someone posted on here a while back when they were looking at teams for contraction.

As for the numbers you're gonna have to find em yourself. It's not exactly a big secret when you look at sales and ticket records around the league. Where you can find em I don't know. I know where i can find them, but i dont think that helps much.

You're thing is you always want me to back it up with something instead of going out and checking for yourself. Again, I'm relaying what the studies i've been involved in show. But let's be honest if you weren't an islander fan would we even be debating this? Probably not, because it's not exactly a far fetched point.

Re
Quote:
spectfully, I'm not interested in you telling me how much you make for a living to prove your point as you did in our previous messages and do not like going there with the discussion. I tend to feel fans in the business of hockey are somewhat protective of their favorite teams and this is a business failing on all fronts.
I totally agree but the only real thing i can suggest to look it up is taking a combination of merchandise sales, opposing ticket sales, ratinngs, media clippings and several others.

As of this time I don't know what the NHL has released to public and it'd be hard to find anyway with the labor situation. What ways you find around that are up to you, there's little i can do about it. In the end it comes to what i've said a million times, you either look it up and try to double check, or you don;t believe it. Either way it makes absolutely no difference to me because there's not much i can do either way.

Quote:
The Rangers were a team that approached a payroll of 94 million dollars with name players last season and go virtually invisible in this media market.
And lemme tell you they still ranked near the top in merchandise sales, and media clippings in other markets. That is the whole point i'm getting at, even when the Islanders make the playoffs and the Rangers lose ten in a row they still get the attention. Heck look at them now {even in a rebuilding mode} they are still getting more attention than the Islanders as a whole.

Even with 7 years of disappointment, they still have a higher following on 90% of message boards and internet click through's. Again I can't exactly give you a report without getting myself fired or in trouble, so it comes down to believing what you you want to believe. If you'd like one method is to check the top hockey sites over the next 60 days and see which teams has more articles posted and more news. Again, I'm not saying this to be a smart @$$. I'm trying to give solutions to a question you have that i in all honesty don't know how to answer for you.
Quote:
For what it's worth it's also time for a little perspective on the Islanders and their fickle fans in this 2004 baseball market that makes both teams seem like the SI Yankees vs Brooklyn Cyclones by comparison in terms of fan popularity today. It's a non-topic overall because no one in mainstream media cares about either team.
except those who are paid to follow it. If you even look at articles up in Canada {another place i've spent considerable time} the rangers even in a sport that has a "Cult" following have several things going for them:

They are older, they are original six, they are linked to new york city.

Whether we like it or not, the islanders simply aren't. They are seen as a suburban team. They are {despite their great history} newer and people just don't associate it with NY. When outsiders think of NY, they always think of NYC. And that one i can testify personally too. Very rarely do you run across someone in the midwest or the west that thinks about upstate ny or long island. Again, that's not my doing. That's from a few years of traveling over the country. It's annoying to me, but it is the way it is.

Quote:
Hockey is only for the cult-following.
Exactly and what does it say that even with a cult following status, the number of sites, articles, and sales all still point to the Rangers. That's EXACTLY my point.

This
Quote:
was written with the Islanders dead last in the NHL, March 2001, on their way to a seventh consecutitve year out of the playoffs. They had just fired Butch Goring. Fair to say rock bottom for the Isles.

This article was from Larry Brooks.
The debate is not whether anyone writes about the islanders, it's that does following, cult as it may be, as a WHOLE give two craps about the Islanders. The answer is unfortunatly no. The league really could care less and as a whole neither could the fans. People love to hate the Rangers or they love to love the Rangers. There is almost no one who will take a middle ground. But ask the same question about the islanders and you'll get a lot "eh their okay i guess" or "I dunno". Again that's from going outside the NY area.

Quote:
From what I understand the NY Americans founded the hockey tradition in NYC. Tex Ricard forced them out of the garden and took the origional teams colors/fanbase.

They moved to Brooklyn and folded during WW2.
That is correct. But the point is that they have still been in NY for 75 years. History tends to ignore origins but remembers staying power.

For example you don't hear many people mention that Yankees actually started out in Baltimore before moving to NY. Why? Because a century later it's what people remember that drives us.

It's very similar to politics in the sense that, it's not necessarily truth people want. It's what they convince themselves of that people want.

No one can deny that the Islanders have accomplished more in a shorter time than the Rangers. In fact, the Islanders as a whole have "traditionally" been run as a much better franchise. BUT people {As a whole} aren't historians. They simply don't associate the Islanders with NY. They associate them with a suburb. That's great from a tri-state area perspective, but as the NHL has moved into a different time period in a different world it's just not cutting it.

That's not because I hate them or dislike them {i really dont as a whole} but because that's the way fans of this cult following feel. I mean what I could offer is if you're ever on the west coast, i could take you to hot spots or maybe even introduce you to people working for respective teams who could show you sales numbers and stuff. {Assuming i dont make my move into politics in the next month or so, in which case i'll be seeing much less hockey as my career will be different}. But understand there is little "I" can show you to really have it be the end all evidence. The best i can offer is do media searches or even go to the NY public library and use their computers to run media watches for the country. I know it doesn't help much, but honestly that's about all i can suggest.

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Old
07-14-2004, 04:50 PM
  #30
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Maybe this will help your attendance argument Edge...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/attend..._avg&year=2004

Isles are in the bottom 5 in Avg. Attendance...take that as you may.

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07-14-2004, 05:03 PM
  #31
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Well, you became other dude when I didnt feel like scrolling up! lol

Staying in the theme of things... I can agree with Edge that all people from the rest of the country think of NYC when you say NY. You could be from Lake Placid, and they'll still think that's somewhere near NYC.

Also, I've never personally met a Isles fan. Only on this board. Guess that would mean not too many exist? Hell, I've met Panthers fans!

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Old
07-14-2004, 05:27 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTOM
he made this same topic on the Islanders board.

I think he's on crack, I mean for God's sake the Long Island Islanders?

and you want to imrpove marketting?

also your area of Long Island is already represented in the name "Islanders".
No way man! I can't tell you how many people ponder throughout the day "Holy ****, I know they're the New York ISLANDERS, but that could be anywhere!"

Now since we're calling them the Long Island Islanders, no one will ever associate the name Islanders with those Staten and Shelter ******** again.

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Old
07-14-2004, 05:57 PM
  #33
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Hey
this post geberated alot of interest. Islanders fans can't take the fact that the Islanders are the bottom dwellers of new york. I love the isles but i am being honest. i think may of u agree with me. would u rather be a small fish in a big pond, or THE Fish(no pun intended) in a smaller Pond.

Long Island is the Islanders House. Builds the long Island Dome!!! Bring it back home.......Long Island Icelanders baby!!! :lol

I want the cup

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Old
07-14-2004, 06:01 PM
  #34
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The only thing that Long Island Islanders would accomplish is reminding everyone how uncreative their team name is.

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Old
07-14-2004, 08:33 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boss22
i'm just saying lets seperate the two. NYC is home of the Rangers. who are the isles kidding. Long Island is Islander country
Long island is big enough these days to support a hockey team.......
Lets get one thing streight, LongIsland is FAR from Islander country, I would say its closer to 60% - 40% Islanders when the Islanders are winning, lets just face it there is no room for them here! No more cups so no more Fur coats, aaah it didnt matter anyway, they were gone by the end of the 2nd anyway..

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07-14-2004, 08:51 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
if u say so, just not anislander fan or to see why someone would come here talking nyi hockey or what vever.. ya know what i mean
I did not come here to talk Islander hockey nor did I start this topic on either board, my name was brought up in the conversation by Edge which is why I responded.

Personally I think it's a trivial topic for a slow day because both teams are almost invisible in this market.

What I can say is I proved the Islanders strong cult following, even at it's worst can walk into Msg and has a strong following inside the city limits and the tri-state area. Ranger fans do not like that but Larry Brooks has no reason to lie, I have personally been at too many Isles-Ranger games to count at Msg where the crowds are mixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
My job isn't to provide you with all the links in the world. There was something that someone posted on here a while back when they were looking at teams for contraction.
That's fair enough. All I can say is the Islanders will be paid 300 million by Msg for cable rights until 2030 which is a great deal considering what the league as a whole got this summer. Their horrible lease with Smg expires in 2014 as does the lease with the County, all those things combined I do not see them going anywhere because it would be too much revenue to forfeit by moving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
As for the numbers you're gonna have to find em yourself. It's not exactly a big secret when you look at sales and ticket records around the league. Where you can find em I don't know. I know where i can find them, but i dont think that helps much.
Well, it was nice of Balle20? to find some numbers being that we are talking about road attendance and the Rangers popularity vs the Islanders in other buildings. The numbers told a lot.

The Rangers name team of stars (from other markets with fans loyal/interested/furious at their former players) with a payroll double or higher than the league average drew a grand total of 431 more fans per game on the road last season than the Islanders.

The Isles also on avg were virtually equal to or outdrew Boston, StLouis, Dallas, Chicago, Philadelphia. Thats the road ticket sales unless the Espn link is wrong.

The numbers did tell me fans have solid turnouts everwhere. Isles better drop ticket prices because that increase to sixth overall killed them. At least the playoff plan produce a ninety percet renewal and 1500 new seasons, between a maxed out payroll and MM, that's loyality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
You're thing is you always want me to back it up with something instead of going out and checking for yourself. Again, I'm relaying what the studies i've been involved in show. But let's be honest if you weren't an islander fan would we even be debating this? Probably not, because it's not exactly a far fetched point.
By contrast if you were not a Ranger fan you would not be debating this either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I totally agree but the only real thing i can suggest to look it up is taking a combination of merchandise sales, opposing ticket sales, ratinngs, media clippings and several others.
I do not know about the national television ratings, Espn said it all about the games popularity on their primary network regardless of who the product advertised was because regular season hockey will no longer be seen and was cut significantly on Espn2. It failed on all fronts and they had enough. Ranger hockey on Abc failed with regional coverage and got horrible ratings for years. Their basketball people picked New Jersey over the Knicks and did better but they are more vested in that business.

I follow the press clippings and have spoken with several prominent writers on this subject also. Without the Rangers rumored to spend money on players (or let's be honest) ripped for their now historic struggles nationally no one ever writes about their games. It's not coverage out of popularity, it's coverage out of a train-wreck that spends money on other markets stars and cannot control their owner or gm. Half the Ranger team was traded, that is news that any team would get if they did likewise.

I found it sad how little coverage Tom Renney got when he was announced, Montoya got less coverage than DiPietro aside from the Msg suits. It's just not what it used to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
And lemme tell you they still ranked near the top in merchandise sales, and media clippings in other markets. That is the whole point i'm getting at, even when the Islanders make the playoffs and the Rangers lose ten in a row they still get the attention. Heck look at them now {even in a rebuilding mode} they are still getting more attention than the Islanders as a whole.
They get the attention because it's a miracle a team with a 94 million dollar payroll cannot finish 8th or lose ten in a row. It's like how the Islanders got attention for having comical ownership, in other words, it's not popularity like Toronto, Philadelphia, Colorado or Detroit.

If the Islanders are not getting much attention it's only because Msg burries them on thier network and hides playoff games on Metro because James Dolan for his 13 million does play hardball (see Jets-Msg) and has his people with contacts in the papers producing material are going to paint the Isles glass as half-filled. That's why the Devils are shopping for a new network this fall.

People like Fischler/Trautwig/J.D and formely Marv Albert know where the next paycheck comes from and when it comes time to take a dig at Alexei Yashin, Fischler will burry him and selectively ignore Rangers who do not produce. It's so non-objective it's amusing.

Call me a biased Islander fan on this one but all I can say is the Islanders series vs Toronto may have been hockey's most memorable playoff series since the 1994 finals.

Funny, but to me the Rangers worst moment was when they were nine over five hundred in Dec 2001 and in first place. No trade rumors or increased daily coverage, no one noticed or hyped it up, until it went down the drain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Even with 7 years of disappointment, they still have a higher following on 90% of message boards and internet click through's. Again I can't exactly give you a report without getting myself fired or in trouble, so it comes down to believing what you you want to believe. If you'd like one method is to check the top hockey sites over the next 60 days and see which teams has more articles posted and more news. Again, I'm not saying this to be a smart @$$. I'm trying to give solutions to a question you have that i in all honesty don't know how to answer for you.
That's fair enough. I have little doubts from my research aside from labor updates and rumors of the Rangers spending the team itself aside from some seasonal previews and the same Espn article given to New Jersey the last two days and hopefully the Isles) the coverage will be even aside from Brooks sunday gossip.

Go look at the Pens two papers, far superior to anything in this market for hockey with more coverage on the Pens than the Rangers, Isles and Devils combined.

Even this season during the year, where did Sherry Ross go for half a season? Times has no journalist for hockey, neither does Newsday, even if they easily have the coverage that caters to the hockey fans the most.

As for Website hits and things like that, I never put stock in them. All I can say is I have seen Islander and Rangers sites where the numbers favor both depending on where you go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
If you even look at articles up in Canada {another place i've spent considerable time} the rangers even in a sport that has a "Cult" following have several things going for them:

They are older, they are original six, they are linked to new york city.
But what you fail to point out is the Rangers have players from all those teams from high profile trades. Sather will not even talk to the local press for side interviews, he goes to Canada, he did almost all his deals with teams from Canada. The storylines about about former players those fans saw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Whether we like it or not, the islanders simply aren't. They are seen as a suburban team. They are {despite their great history} newer and people just don't associate it with NY. When outsiders think of NY, they always think of NYC. And that one i can testify personally too. Very rarely do you run across someone in the midwest or the west that thinks about upstate ny or long island. Again, that's not my doing. That's from a few years of traveling over the country. It's annoying to me, but it is the way it is.
We did this topic once, I made several points of how popular the team was in 1980 and where the populaity began and how they were offered the Canyon of Hero's to which Bill Smith turned it down. It's up to you to accept it or not accept it. I will leave you with a quote from Sather (a seventies Ranger player) on this topic at the beginning of the 1983 finals....

" Yes ", Sather drawled Sather, " it'll be the Big Apple vs the poor little country boys. Think about it, They've got the most fans, they come from the richest area in North America they're the three-time Stanley Cup Champions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
The debate is not whether anyone writes about the islanders, it's that does following, cult as it may be, as a WHOLE give two craps about the Islanders. The answer is unfortunatly no. The league really could care less and as a whole neither could the fans. People love to hate the Rangers or they love to love the Rangers. There is almost no one who will take a middle ground. But ask the same question about the islanders and you'll get a lot "eh their okay i guess" or "I dunno". Again that's from going outside the NY area.
Let's just bring up the name of Denis Potvin and watch the hated among Ranger fans everywhere to this day, half never even saw him play. Ranger fans will always love to hate Potvin, Islander fans love Potvin and love it Ranger fans hate him so much. To me that's fun and how it happens with the Yankees.

The Islanders have not exactly been a winning team (real playoff success) for a long time but when they were champions things were much different. All I can say is when they played Toronto it got league-wide attention and was memorable even before Peca-Tucker. (above)

Do people in other markets hate the Rangers? They do not hate the Knicks, Nets Giants, Jets and they are far more popular than the Rangers. Heck, even the Red Sox are more mainstream New York around here with their Yankee rivalry.

These days most seem amused/curious by the Rangers losing and the trade rumors/gossip as they follow their former players. It should be very interesting to see what the true reaction is to a Ranger team with the same no-name talent as other markets and a low payroll. That's when you will get a true answer, IMHO Edge, not before.

Just remember New York is the baseball capital of the World, not hockey and Steinbrenner owns the local and National media and the Rangers are not the Yankees in this hate thing nationally. George wants coverage he get's it, even when Brian Leetch is traded. He's no fan of Dolan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
But the point is that they have still been in NY for 75 years. History tends to ignore origins but remembers staying power.
Boston and Chicago have been around 75 years too and forgot their staying power as soon as their owners cut payroll. Both play in front of smaller crowds than they used to in the great old days. Without the Rangers spending on other markets free agent and the historic losing the buzz would be the same as those teams, even less in the Yankees market. Msg is desperate to sell Mets baseball to keep their rights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
For example you don't hear many people mention that Yankees actually started out in Baltimore before moving to NY. Why? Because a century later it's what people remember that drives us. .
A few may remember they were first called Highlanders.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
No one can deny that the Islanders have accomplished more in a shorter time than the Rangers. In fact, the Islanders as a whole have "traditionally" been run as a much better franchise. BUT people {As a whole} aren't historians. They simply don't associate the Islanders with NY. They associate them with a suburb. That's great from a tri-state area perspective, but as the NHL has moved into a different time period in a different world it's just not cutting it.
The NHL has moved into a different time peirod in a different world. In New York few care about NHL hockey during a long NHL season with a boring product. Ottawa's league leading goal total would have been dead last back in 1985-86, take a look at the payroll table since 1992.

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/$maseq_e.htm</FONT>

Major media people like Mike Lupica and Mike Viccaro wrote the Rangers go out of business and only 18,000 fans would care between occasional digs at Dolan for his handling of the Knicks. Lupica 20 years ago nicknamed the Coliseum " Fort Neverlose."

If they do not remember the Isles from 20 years ago they remember even less about Brad Park, Rod Gilbert and Ed Giaconmin and that's a shame.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
That's not because I hate them or dislike them {i really dont as a whole} but because that's the way fans of this cult following feel. I mean what I could offer is if you're ever on the west coast, i could take you to hot spots or maybe even introduce you to people working for respective teams who could show you sales numbers and stuff. {Assuming i dont make my move into politics in the next month or so, in which case i'll be seeing much less hockey as my career will be different}. But understand there is little "I" can show you to really have it be the end all evidence. The best i can offer is do media searches or even go to the NY public library and use their computers to run media watches for the country. I know it doesn't help much, but honestly that's about all i can suggest.
What can I write that I have not written, I respectfully disagree for the most part. I feel most of the people in the business fell asleep at the wheel long ago and did not do their homework on the game. The results do not lie because the product fell apart and all fans here can do is call for the elimination of Columbus, a market of die-hard fans that do great in the stands at Nationwide Arena. The fans are frustrated too and looking for reasons to blame the problems on the game, blame expansion, the trap..ect

I'm personally indifferent to the Rangers, I just do not accept questionable or incorrect information as factual because it seems too much has been accepted as Fact for too long and the casual media just buys into things that no longer work and do not do the homework the diehards do.

Regarding the Rangers, wake me when when we both meet in a playoff series. I'd be more interested in finally beating the Devils in a playoff. (but I'll take a crummy win against anyone after all these years)


Last edited by NYIsles1*: 07-14-2004 at 09:29 PM.
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Old
07-14-2004, 09:26 PM
  #37
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oh man, that's torture

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Old
07-14-2004, 11:29 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Personally I think it's a trivial topic for a slow day because both teams are almost invisible in this market.

What I can say is I proved the Islanders strong cult following, even at it's worst can walk into Msg and has a strong following inside the city limits and the tri-state area. Ranger fans do not like that but Larry Brooks has no reason to lie, I have personally been at too many Isles-Ranger games to count at Msg where the crowds are mixed.
Oh i agree, for me it's just "something" to debate.

As for the Islanders walking into MSG you also have to remember how many times Ranger fans OWN the Nassau Coliseum as well.

Quote:
That's fair enough. All I can say is the Islanders will be paid 300 million by Msg for cable rights until 2030 which is a great deal considering what the league as a whole got this summer. Their horrible lease with Smg expires in 2014 as does the lease with the County, all those things combined I do not see them going anywhere because it would be too much revenue to forfeit by moving.
MSG did that because they wanted a strangle hold on the rights. Having said that, if the only reason a team remains in a location is the money given to them by a cable station than I think the team has more problems than we've touched on.

Well, it was nice of Balle20? to find some numbers being that we are talking about road attendance and the Rangers popularity vs the Islanders in other buildings. The numbers told a lot.

Quote:
The Rangers name team of stars (from other markets with fans loyal/interested/furious at their former players) with a payroll double or higher than the league average drew a grand total of 431 more fans per game on the road last season than the Islanders.
Yes but what the number doesn't show is merchandise sales and you're also leaving out one very important fact: The Rangers are even worse shape than the Islanders. If the Islanders can at least make the playoffs and challange for a spot {something the Rangers can't do} and they STILL can't outdraw a pathetic Rangers squad, than says everything and more of what I've been saying in this whole thread.

To make matters even more interesting, i'm almost willing to bet than even next season {whenever that is} with a young, rebuilding team and all the Rangers will STILL outdraw the Islanders. Though the number is only say 400 some odd fans NOW, the issue is what it'd be when/if the Rangers actually become successful. Than you're talking about even more numbers.

Quote:
The Isles also on avg were virtually equal to or outdrew Boston, StLouis, Dallas, Chicago, Philadelphia. Thats the road ticket sales unless the Espn link is wrong.
The problem also is that those teams also outsold the islanders in probably every imaginable marketing standpoint. I mean let's be real do you honestly think more people buy Islander jersey's than the Hawks, Flyers or Bruins?

Quote:
The numbers did tell me fans have solid turnouts everwhere. Isles better drop ticket prices because that increase to sixth overall killed them. At least the playoff plan produce a ninety percet renewal and 1500 new seasons, between a maxed out payroll and MM, that's loyality.
Again that's why I'd invite you to sporting events if you ever want to come out West {BTW that is a genuine offer not a smart ass "why don't you come out here threat"}. That's probably the only fair i can show what i am talking about.

Quote:
By contrast if you were not a Ranger fan you would not be debating this either.
Totally, but I also could have the same debate about 15 other teams who are viewed more important by the league. That's not necessarily my view but rather the powers that be.


Quote:
I do not know about the national television ratings, Espn said it all about the games popularity on their primary network regardless of who the product advertised was because regular season hockey will no longer be seen and was cut significantly on Espn2. It failed on all fronts and they had enough. Ranger hockey on Abc failed with regional coverage and got horrible ratings for years. Their basketball people picked New Jersey over the Knicks and did better but they are more vested in that business.
But what does it say than even with the HORRIBLE state of the Rangers THEY not the Islanders were still the team picked to be televised. Now there is a reason behind that and that again is based on the fact that simply have a higher market value.

Quote:
I follow the press clippings and have spoken with several prominent writers on this subject also. Without the Rangers rumored to spend money on players (or let's be honest) ripped for their now historic struggles nationally no one ever writes about their games. It's not coverage out of popularity, it's coverage out of a train-wreck that spends money on other markets stars and cannot control their owner or gm. Half the Ranger team was traded, that is news that any team would get if they did likewise.
Than we'll see again this year when again i am almost willing to bet that the Rangers with almost no free agents or stars still gets more coverage than the islanders.

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I found it sad how little coverage Tom Renney got when he was announced, Montoya got less coverage than DiPietro aside from the Msg suits. It's just not what it used to be.
Actually montoya was in usa today, tsn, espn and other prominent websites. In fact the renney signing was still on the front page of espn, tsn and other websites.
Add to that media blurps on AP wire about the sanwhich named after Montoya and you still have a team that while not drawing like it used to AGAIN outdrew the islanders in attention.

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They get the attention because it's a miracle a team with a 94 million dollar payroll cannot finish 8th or lose ten in a row. It's like how the Islanders got attention for having comical ownership, in other words, it's not popularity like Toronto, Philadelphia, Colorado or Detroit.
But it's still exposure and people still turn out. When they were a good team in the 90's it was "because they had a good team and stars" when they lost in the late nineties till today they got attention for sucking. That is EXACTLY my point, good, bad and everything between people for one reason or the other will GET attention. When they are a good team, people want to see them lose. When they are a bad team, people want to see them embarassed but BOTH ways people still want to find a reason to hate them or root against them. If the Islanders arent winning no really cares. People in Philly don't want to see them lose passionatly. No one boo's the islanders out of the building when they come up to draft. THAT is what i am talking about the Rangers. People boo'd them way back when they still made the playoffs. People will boo them ten years from now. The Rangers are a team that just stir an emotion in people. Every NY team does. It is so evident when you come out west, the entire country has a complex with NYC. Anything associated with it is drawn into that. Simply put the Islanders aren't connected to that. It has everything to do with location, location, location.

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If the Islanders are not getting much attention it's only because Msg burries them on thier network and hides playoff games on Metro because James Dolan for his 13 million does play hardball (see Jets-Msg) and has his people with contacts in the papers producing material are going to paint the Isles glass as half-filled. That's why the Devils are shopping for a new network this fall.
Again you're not looking beyond the tri-state area. I'm talking about that area and beyond. I'm talking about minnesota, texas, detroit, toronto, etc. I'm telling you they REALLY don't care about the Islanders. They might for given sets of time {if the islanders put together another dynasty} but it fades very quickly. Can you name me ANY other team that has SUCKED at the level of the Rangers and STILL managed to get peopkle's emotions going?
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People like Fischler/Trautwig/J.D and formely Marv Albert know where the next paycheck comes from and when it comes time to take a dig at Alexei Yashin, Fischler will burry him and selectively ignore Rangers who do not produce. It's so non-objective it's amusing.
Again who's talking about dig? Take a look at TSN, the hockey news, usa today. This little conspiracy again the islanders cannot possibly extend to the pacific ocean.

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Call me a biased Islander fan on this one but all I can say is the Islanders series vs Toronto may have been hockey's most memorable playoff series since the 1994 finals.
And it was one and done. Again for spurts the islanders will get people's attentions, but when it's over that's it.

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Funny, but to me the Rangers worst moment was when they were nine over five hundred in Dec 2001 and in first place. No trade rumors or increased daily coverage, no one noticed or hyped it up, until it went down the drain.
Again because WANT to see this team fail or they want to see them win. Now had they made the playoffs people would jumped on. But Ranger fans in general had seen this too many times before. But when they did their usual tanking, their was the emotion towards them all over again.


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Go look at the Pens two papers, far superior to anything in this market for hockey with more coverage on the Pens than the Rangers, Isles and Devils combined.
But again we have to look at the the nation as a whole. And the pens, do have fairly good coverage. Much of it also has to do the fact that they seem to represent exactly how hard it is to get a team going while losing money. But don't understimate that people still remember Mario and Jagr and Francis and others. But people also love the underdog and that's what the pens are. The Rangers whether they win or lose are seen as the big bad bullies. People LOVE to HATE bullies. They love to hate things from NYC.

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As for Website hits and things like that, I never put stock in them. All I can say is I have seen Islander and Rangers sites where the numbers favor both depending on where you go.
Well yeah specific team sites will always favor that team, but a good way to get the info would be to go those sites and say you were looking for click through's for possibly advertising ventures. The Rangers {Even in a rebuilding mode like next season} will still have the higher number. Why? Because even people who don't like them, will want to see them struggle.

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But what you fail to point out is the Rangers have players from all those teams from high profile trades. Sather will not even talk to the local press for side interviews, he goes to Canada, he did almost all his deals with teams from Canada. The storylines about about former players those fans saw.
Same thing went on with Smith who loved to talk "too" much to his local reporters. But again location, location, location. The world views NYC as the center of the US. Long island? Well despite being born there, let's be honest it's a suburb....

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We did this topic once, I made several points of how popular the team was in 1980 and where the populaity began and how they were offered the Canyon of Hero's to which Bill Smith turned it down. It's up to you to accept it or not accept it. I will leave you with a quote from Sather (a seventies Ranger player) on this topic at the beginning of the 1983 finals....

" Yes ", Sather drawled Sather, " it'll be the Big Apple vs the poor little country boys. Think about it, They've got the most fans, they come from the richest area in North America they're the three-time Stanley Cup Champions.
And a lot has changed in the TWENTYFOUR years since than. The Islanders were in an area that exploded in population during the 60's and 70's and in an era when the luster of the CITY was fading.

But as the boom of the 80's hit and wallstreet, big money came into play that focus started to shift again. In the 24 years since it's become the hip thing to be single and in the city and be a big shot business person. Outside of NY, during the 80's and 90's NYC reclaimed it's lost charm. The city reinvented itself as the country's culture changed. Team stadiums starting moving into the middle of downtown areas. Office buildings were built around those centers, the city was reborn after two decades of suburbania. It's now been at the level for the better part of its third decade. Cities are seen as exciting and sexy. Suburbs are seen as where you go to have kids and calm down. That's a big reason why more and more teams in EVERY sport {including hockey} are moving to their cities and not their cities suburbs.

Hockey is becoming a sport that is just too darn expensive for a family....but it could be a nice night out for a young couple or two young business people. Again the Islanders can hold the attention of people for given set of time but inevtiably it starts to disappear.

How else does a team that has been as miserable as the Rangers stay as healthy as they do for 75 years? By all logical accounts they should be history by now.

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Let's just bring up the name of Denis Potvin and watch the hated among Ranger fans everywhere to this day, half never even saw him play. Ranger fans will always love to hate Potvin, Islander fans love Potvin and love it Ranger fans hate him so much. To me that's fun and how it happens with the Yankees.
And what does it say that Potvin to most people outside of the country it's not a big deal.

During the 80's and 90's no one outside of MSG chanted Potvin sucks but EVERYONE in the league chanted 1940. Again it's a love to love or love to hate relationship. A big city team is much easier to hate than a team from suburbia.

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The Islanders have not exactly been a winning team (real playoff success) for a long time but when they were champions things were much different. All I can say is when they played Toronto it got league-wide attention and was memorable even before Peca-Tucker. (above)
And it faded just as quickly as it came. Yet the Rangers despite their futility continue to get attention because people wanna see em fail.

Frankly people dont want to see the islanders fail....as a whole they don't want to see the islanders. You'll grab their attention for a physical series but it's not because they are the islanders, it's because the series was physical. Also don't fail to understimate the following toronto has in canada and with the media that as a whole will cover hockey.

Again people don't feel that way about the Rangers because they are the Rangers. They feel that way because the Rangers play in NYC.

If the Rangers went out of business tomorrow and were replaced by a team called the Apples, they'd still have people's attention because of where they play. I think that is the part of the original debate and this one that is being forgotten. People don't get emotions about the team because of what they are called, they get emotions from people because of where they play. You mention NYC anywhere on this planet and you're gonna to get a reaction from people good or bad. You mention long island and you're gonna get a shrug. Again location, location, location.

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Do people in other markets hate the Rangers? They do not hate the Knicks, Nets Giants, Jets and they are far more popular than the Rangers. Heck, even the Red Sox are more mainstream New York around here with their Yankee rivalry.
You be they do. Try wearing a Ranger jersey in a city outside of NY. Have two people, one with a Ranger jersey and one with an islander one and I gurantee you the Rangers one is gonna get more reactions from people.

Heck taking a yearly trip to the HOF will prove that one.

And people do hate the giants, jets, knicks, and yankees outside of ny. i remember my time in college {out here in the west} and any ny football team fan got waay more flack than other cities. it's just the nation's attitude towards things they "associate" with ny. it's how they perceive it. Even though both football teams play in jersey, they are {for whatever reason} associated with the city.

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These days most seem amused/curious by the Rangers losing and the trade rumors/gossip as they follow their former players. It should be very interesting to see what the true reaction is to a Ranger team with the same no-name talent as other markets and a low payroll. That's when you will get a true answer, IMHO Edge, not before.
They no doubt lose attention. that;s undeniable but they'll only need a 1/4 as much time to recoup that fan base as the islanders would.

i've watched when i was i had a sport retail store know as front row sports as a client. EVERY team associated with NYC might disappear for a little bit, but they get attention back very quickly. again i dont make the rules, it's just my job to capitalize on them =)

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Just remember New York is the baseball capital of the World, not hockey and Steinbrenner owns the local and National media and the Rangers are not the Yankees in this hate thing nationally. George wants coverage he get's it, even when Brian Leetch is traded. He's no fan of Dolan.
No one said the Rangers are on the same LEVEL as the Rangers. But anything associated with NYC has that attitude. Again if you came out here and went to bars and told people you were from nyc, you right away get the flack. I'm having a little hard time finding a common ground to compare this too because as someone whose spent time in both places you experience the attitudes people have. But i don't know if you've ever spent a significant amount of time outside ny, the further west you get people just get.....weird towards anything associated with nyc. Obviously the Rangers wont generate emotions on the level of the yankees {few things can} but comparable to the sport they play in and its popularity it is actually quiet interesting to experience.

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Boston and Chicago have been around 75 years too and forgot their staying power as soon as their owners cut payroll. Both play in front of smaller crowds than they used to in the great old days. Without the Rangers spending on other markets free agent and the historic losing the buzz would be the same as those teams, even less in the Yankees market. Msg is desperate to sell Mets baseball to keep their rights.
But it wouldn't. Believe me when i moved out here i never would have gotten nearly as much attention if i said i was from chicago or boston. But you say New York and people's ears are automatically perked. it works for sports just like it works for people.

People put a connection together.

NYC + object or person from city = emotion {either good or bad}.

ESPECIALLY someone with a NY accent {the one thing that saved me} you're gonna hear it. It's so hard to explain, but it's definatly there.


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If they do not remember the Isles from 20 years ago they remember even less about Brad Park, Rod Gilbert and Ed Giaconmin and that's a shame.
But see most people {except for die hard hockey fans who study the sports history} aren't interested in names, they are interested in the fact they New Yorker's {insert derogatory tone of voice here} are in town.

When you go somewhere with an accent in this country people don't say "Oh so you're a long islander?", they say "So you a New Yorka?" {insert derogatory tone again and cheesy attempts at a NY accent}. Again it's the same way with sports. Even people who dont follow the sport will take a slightly bigger interest if the team plays in ny.

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What can I write that I have not written, I respectfully disagree for the most part. I feel most of the people in the business fell asleep at the wheel long ago and did not do their homework on the game. The results do not lie because the product fell apart and all fans here can do is call for the elimination of Columbus, a market of die-hard fans that do great in the stands at Nationwide Arena. The fans are frustrated too and looking for reasons to blame the problems on the game, blame expansion, the trap..ect
I dont mind agreeing to disagree. i think that's cool that we do. I agree the powers that be did fall asleep, but that's a seperate issue than comparing national interest in a team from long island vs. new york city. unfortunatly, right wrong or indifferent the only memories people have of long island are when they go to a bar and order an iced tead or memories from 20 years ago. as a whole they simply dont care about whether or not there is a team in long island, but if the rangers went away people would stop and notice. not because the rangers are a better team, but just because people outside of ny really don't care about long island.

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I'm personally indifferent to the Rangers, I just do not accept questionable or incorrect information as factual because it seems too much has been accepted as Fact for too long and the casual media just buys into things that no longer work and do not do the homework the diehards do.
Again i dont know what to tell you. But anytime you wanna come out west i could show you, but i can't show you national reactions to ny over the internet. It's just not possible for me to "show" you tangible evidence unless we are in the same spot at the same time and even then i honestly don't know if you'd think the people were biased.

The only thing i can really suggest is a trip to different parts of the country and asking people face to face about long island. you might be very surprised at the results being outside the box.

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Regarding the Rangers, wake me when when we both meet in a playoff series. I'd be more interested in finally beating the Devils in a playoff. (but I'll take a crummy win against anyone after all these years)
What's the use, we'll both be dead by that point.

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07-14-2004, 11:31 PM
  #39
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Anyone else thing that NY Isles and me should be the new hosts of a sports talk show in the mold of pardon my interruption?

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07-15-2004, 01:12 AM
  #40
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How long did it take u guys to write those posts? (I know half them were quotes, but still).

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07-15-2004, 01:15 AM
  #41
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Ok since the Islander fans aren't acting like a/ssholes as they normally r, I'll try to be biased and ask how many people does the Coliseum seat compared to the garden? Or is it the same in every arena?

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07-15-2004, 03:16 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by NYRGoalieGlut
Ok since the Islander fans aren't acting like a/ssholes as they normally r, I'll try to be biased and ask how many people does the Coliseum seat compared to the garden? Or is it the same in every arena?
Obviously you know it isn't the same..i hope. Garden seats 18200, Coliseum seats somewhere around 15,000.

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07-15-2004, 03:17 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by Edge
Anyone else thing that NY Isles and me should be the new hosts of a sports talk show in the mold of pardon my interruption?
I'm all for the pardon the interruption type show with you two. Only this one wont be basketball talk for the entire show. Instead it will be hockey talk (thank god).

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07-15-2004, 05:25 AM
  #44
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personally i've always loved debating ny isles. Neither one of is going to "convert" the other, but it is just always a good, stimulating discussion. Unfortunatly what ends up happening is that at some point it just becomes too much writing.

As he said, we agree to disagree. But somewhere in the middle of those agreements is always an interesting debate of disagreements.....hopefully.

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07-15-2004, 06:12 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
personally i've always loved debating ny isles. Neither one of is going to "convert" the other, but it is just always a good, stimulating discussion. Unfortunatly what ends up happening is that at some point it just becomes too much writing.

As he said, we agree to disagree. But somewhere in the middle of those agreements is always an interesting debate of disagreements.....hopefully.
Feeling's mutual. Were both former writers/Editors for this website. I guess at the very least were making up for some of those prospect articles with some long discussions on the boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Anyone else thing that NY Isles and me should be the new hosts of a sports talk show in the mold of pardon my interruption?
PTI does not do hockey, their hosts cannot name five players....the debate continues...kidding.


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07-15-2004, 06:17 AM
  #46
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Yeah it's nice. It just gets to a point with writing where it simply can't continue. I mean just in our discussion here we've taken up several pages. it's unfortunate because over a different medium the conversation could continue but with writing, it simply becomes to overwhelming.

After my last reply i was like "i dont think i can write anymore, it's just too much...."

But in all seriousness my offer was serious about showing you around assuming i am still kicking around the world of hockey {which as of right now doesn't seem likely as i'm very close to signing on to work with a senator.}

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07-15-2004, 09:24 AM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Anyone else thing that NY Isles and me should be the new hosts of a sports talk show in the mold of pardon my interruption?
Great stuff you guys

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