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Old
11-25-2008, 09:41 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhantic View Post
He could be such a great "agitator" with skill. You know like a Domi or Tucker in their prime.

But hey, he's a tough kid. The best of luck to him and he'll probably be back in the big leagues in no time.
Yeah, believe it or not, I heard through the grapevine he's getting the call up from Tampa. My connections told me he was in town this past weekend, and he was giving them the 411. I'm actually quite surprised he'll still be getting it. I figured he'd get the call, but not for a while after the suspension. Sucks cause I wanted to go to that Norfolk-Phantoms game in December.

On another note, connection informed me that Downie was spilling the beans about all the phone calls he was getting after being traded. He got calls from Snider, 3 from Holmgren (apparently he said he's gonna try his best to get him back eventually), and he got a call from Stevens which he didn't answer or return . All in all, he said he was still pretty sad about the whole thing though, and really didn't want to go.

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Old
11-25-2008, 05:25 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Kambo View Post
Yeah, believe it or not, I heard through the grapevine he's getting the call up from Tampa. My connections told me he was in town this past weekend, and he was giving them the 411. I'm actually quite surprised he'll still be getting it. I figured he'd get the call, but not for a while after the suspension. Sucks cause I wanted to go to that Norfolk-Phantoms game in December.

On another note, connection informed me that Downie was spilling the beans about all the phone calls he was getting after being traded. He got calls from Snider, 3 from Holmgren (apparently he said he's gonna try his best to get him back eventually), and he got a call from Stevens which he didn't answer or return . All in all, he said he was still pretty sad about the whole thing though, and really didn't want to go.
at not returning the Stevens call. His refusal to give Downie any real chance is the reason he's not here. The trade still pisses me off... Carle's been decent... but is he really that much better than Jones or Parent?

Timonen/Sbisa
Coburn/Vannanen
Alberts/Kukkonen/Syvret/Guenin

Really, Alberts has been playing solid lately, and that leaves one spot that really needs to be filled, and I'm sure one of Kukk/Syvret/Guenin could get it done until Jones and Parent return.

Now, on top of all of those defensemen, look at the defensive prospects in the organization:

Bodrov
Bourdon
Ratchuk
Marshall
Bartulis

Alright, time to list them all:

Timonen
Coburn
Sbisa
Vannanen
Alberts
Kukkonen
Jones
Parent
Syvret
Guenin
Bodrov
Ratchuk
Bartulis
Bourdon
Marshall

Is a top 6 with Carle really that much of a difference than what we could put out in the near future without him? He's been solid, but nothing spectacular. A top four of Timonen/Sbisa Coburn/Parent is legit. Round it out with Jones/one of our solid prospects or resign Vannanen and I see no real difference (probably better). Downie's upside is way more valuable than bringing in an above average defenseman which the organization will be stocked full of in the coming years.

Wow, that was long.

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11-25-2008, 05:31 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
Now, on top of all of those defensemen, look at the defensive prospects in the organization:

Bodrov
Bourdon
Ratchuk
Marshall
Bartulis
If any of those guys turn into a top-4, I would be fairly surprised, I'd also guess that only 1-2 of them have NHL careers.

Right now, our top-4 potential Ds are Kimmo (already there), Coburn (already there), Carle (maybe there, still too soon, be nice to see more assists although he was been darn unlucky in that department and got flat robbed by Bryz a couple times), Sbisa (not even an ideal NHL d-man yet), Parent (potential as a top-4 defensive D).

Without Carle, that list starts to look very thin, especially without guys who can contribute immediately.

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11-25-2008, 05:39 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
If any of those guys turn into a top-4, I would be fairly surprised, I'd also guess that only 1-2 of them have NHL careers.

Right now, our top-4 potential Ds are Kimmo (already there), Coburn (already there), Carle (maybe there, still too soon, be nice to see more assists although he was been darn unlucky in that department and got flat robbed by Bryz a couple times), Sbisa (not even an ideal NHL d-man yet), Parent (potential as a top-4 defensive D).

Without Carle, that list starts to look very thin, especially without guys who can contribute immediately.
I think 1-2 of the prospects having NHL careers as 3rd pairing D-men would be enough. I'm banking that on Sbisa/Parent being top 4 defensmen, and I'd say both of their ceilings are higher than Matt Carle's. That leaves 2 spots to be filled, one more than likely by Randy Jones. I'm sure atleast one young guy will emerge, but even if they don't you can resign Vannanen.

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Old
11-25-2008, 06:09 PM
  #30
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Could you imagine if Holmgren managed to get him back? Even with his issues, Id love him back on the team.

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11-25-2008, 06:11 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
I think 1-2 of the prospects having NHL careers as 3rd pairing D-men would be enough. I'm banking that on Sbisa/Parent being top 4 defensmen, and I'd say both of their ceilings are higher than Matt Carle's. That leaves 2 spots to be filled, one more than likely by Randy Jones. I'm sure atleast one young guy will emerge, but even if they don't you can resign Vannanen.
No way Parent has a higher ceiling than Carle. If Parent ever breaks 15 points in a season, I'll eat my laptop. Carle's already shown he can go over 40 not to mention he actually knows what to do with the puck in the offensive zone (checked out Parent's "shot" lately?).

Sbisa is an 18 year-old kid, but to say he has higher potential than a guy who's already had NHL success and so far has been playing like a legit No.3 for us is pushing it. Lots of things could still go wrong.

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11-25-2008, 06:19 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Casey Tatum View Post
Could you imagine if Holmgren managed to get him back? Even with his issues, Id love him back on the team.
I'd be happy as Peter Griffin in a pile of puppies if we got him back.

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11-25-2008, 06:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
No way Parent has a higher ceiling than Carle. If Parent ever breaks 15 points in a season, I'll eat my laptop. Carle's already shown he can go over 40 not to mention he actually knows what to do with the puck in the offensive zone (checked out Parent's "shot" lately?).

Sbisa is an 18 year-old kid, but to say he has higher potential than a guy who's already had NHL success and so far has been playing like a legit No.3 for us is pushing it. Lots of things could still go wrong.
No, Parent will never be an offensive defenseman. I don't think that means his ceiling isn't as high as Matt Carle. Many feel Parent could be a shutdown D-man, and given Sbisa's offensive upside, that would be perfect. Carle had one good offensive year, and all of his points came on the powerplay. Our powerplay is already very good, and it's no thanks to Carle.

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Old
11-25-2008, 06:23 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casey Tatum View Post
Could you imagine if Holmgren managed to get him back? Even with his issues, Id love him back on the team.
When the trade went through, for whatever reason I was sure that was the plan. Then there was no talk about it for a while so I kind of accepted it. Hope this is true.

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11-25-2008, 06:26 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
No, Parent will never be an offensive defenseman. I don't think that means his ceiling isn't as high as Matt Carle. Many feel Parent could be a shutdown D-man, and given Sbisa's offensive upside, that would be perfect. Carle had one good offensive year, and all of his points came on the powerplay. Our powerplay is already very good, and it's no thanks to Carle.
True, but Carle has already shown this year that he can play well offensively even strength. 29 of Kimmo's 44 points last year were PP points, but I don't see anyone complaining about that.

Carle has brought a very strong 2-way game so far which is the best kind of top-4 guy in my book.

EDIT: I should also add that our 2nd PP unit last year consisted of Jones and Coburn at the points. You don't think Carle is a freaking huge upgrade on Jones?

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11-25-2008, 06:34 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
True, but Carle has already shown this

EDIT: I should also add that our 2nd PP unit last year consisted of Jones and Coburn at the points. You don't think Carle is a freaking huge upgrade on Jones?
We now have Sbisa, though.

It's not that I don't think Carle is a decent defenseman, I just think the D is in good shape in the future without him and it would be more valuable to have Downie.

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11-25-2008, 06:52 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
We now have Sbisa, though.

It's not that I don't think Carle is a decent defenseman, I just think the D is in good shape in the future without him and it would be more valuable to have Downie.
Downie has yet to prove he's an NHL player. And from what we've seen this year, I'd say Sbisa is at least 2 years away from being a top-4 on a contender.

Who's going to step up and play top-4 then? Parent is 1, but as far as 2nd pairing offensive guys, we are looking pretty thin for the next year or two outside of Carle.

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Old
11-25-2008, 07:01 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Downie has yet to prove he's an NHL player. And from what we've seen this year, I'd say Sbisa is at least 2 years away from being a top-4 on a contender.

Who's going to step up and play top-4 then? Parent is 1, but as far as 2nd pairing offensive guys, we are looking pretty thin for the next year or two outside of Carle.
I firmly believe the only reason Downie hasn't proved himself is because he's never really been given an opportunity outside of 5 minutes on the 4th line. The couple of times he played with Richards and Hartnell, the line was awesome.

Once Sbisa limits his turnovers, he'll be great. I think that shouldn't take too long, but Sbisa aside they could still put Timonen and Coburn on different pairings like they've been doing.

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11-25-2008, 07:07 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
I firmly believe the only reason Downie hasn't proved himself is because he's never really been given an opportunity outside of 5 minutes on the 4th line. The couple of times he played with Richards and Hartnell, the line was awesome.

Once Sbisa limits his turnovers, he'll be great. I think that shouldn't take too long, but Sbisa aside they could still put Timonen and Coburn on different pairings like they've been doing.
Sbisa blatantly needs to go back to juniors. Aside from the turnovers, he just looks like a kid out there physically. He needs to go back and bulk up. The guy is 6'2 and is just too lanky. Look what bulking up did for Carter's game.

I'm not saying Luca needs to become a Greek god, but the kid has the makings of a good hitter, so send him back to junior and get him in the weight room so he can really punish people.

He just won't be ready for a while yet and the longer he stays up, the more unnecessary physical abuse he's going to take.

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Old
11-25-2008, 07:16 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
Sbisa blatantly needs to go back to juniors.
I expect Sbisa will be sent down when Jones returns.

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Old
11-25-2008, 07:22 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
Carle's been decent... but is he really that much better than Jones or Parent?
Uh, YEAH. I think he has done plenty so far to prove that not only is he a capable player on a 2nd pairing (and possibly a 1st pairing should he continue to improve), but he has more worth to this team than Steve Downie ever has had, or will have for any team stuck with him.

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11-25-2008, 07:38 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by joethunder View Post
Uh, YEAH. I think he has done plenty so far to prove that not only is he a capable player on a 2nd pairing (and possibly a 1st pairing should he continue to improve), but he has more worth to this team than Steve Downie ever has had, or will have for any team stuck with him.
I would love to take that bet.

He's not a defensive dynamo, nor is he an offensive stud. I'd say maybe above average in both categories. The year everyone raves about he was 6th on the team in average time on ice for defensemen. The followng year he was a huge letdown, and averaged 16 minutes per game! He then went to Tampa, who loved him so much they traded him within 15 games. He puts up one point in Philly and does next to nothing physically, and he's a first pairing defenseman?

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11-25-2008, 07:42 PM
  #43
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And I know the response will be... "but he's blocked alot of shots"

So did Lasse Kukkonen.

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11-25-2008, 07:48 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
I would love to take that bet.

He's not a defensive dynamo, nor is he an offensive stud. I'd say maybe above average in both categories. The year everyone raves about he was 6th on the team in average time on ice for defensemen. The followng year he was a huge letdown, and averaged 16 minutes per game! He then went to Tampa, who loved him so much they traded him within 15 games. He puts up one point in Philly and does next to nothing physically, and he's a first pairing defenseman?
I'm sorry, but after reading that paragraph, I have to ask whether you actually follow hockey outside of the Flyers or not?

I should also add that he and Kimmo have been our best d-men since the deal, his first rocky game was last night.

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11-25-2008, 07:59 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by FlyHigh View Post
I'm sorry, but after reading that paragraph, I have to ask whether you actually follow hockey outside of the Flyers or not?

I should also add that he and Kimmo have been our best d-men since the deal, his first rocky game was last night.
Yes, San Jose had a good team, but his production dropped dramatically, got shipped to Tampa, who shipped him within 15 games. So if Downie is as worthless as everyone thinks, and Carle is as incredible as everyone thinks, why did TB make the trade?

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11-25-2008, 10:52 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BerubeBox View Post
When the trade went through, for whatever reason I was sure that was the plan. Then there was no talk about it for a while so I kind of accepted it. Hope this is true.
I feel exactly the same. The trade still unsettles me, but I've accepted it, mainly because of the fact that I got the feeling Homer would try to get him back. And as soon as I heard that was the case from a legit person, I feel a whole lot better. Doesn't mean we will get him back, but from an organization standpoint, it tells me Homer knew Downie was being ****ed with. For some reason, I knew Homer held Downie to high standards.
Man oh man, if we can manage to get him back, with his head screwed on the right way, I will fly out my door and be buying that Downie jersey asap. I still might, but it's not at the top of the list anymore.

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11-25-2008, 11:49 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by FreshPrinceOfBriere View Post
Yes, San Jose had a good team, but his production dropped dramatically, got shipped to Tampa, who shipped him within 15 games. So if Downie is as worthless as everyone thinks, and Carle is as incredible as everyone thinks, why did TB make the trade?
I'm guessing because, right now, Tampa is being run by a bunch of morons.

Using your theory, I could question why Atlanta would trade Coburn for Zhitnik.

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Old
11-26-2008, 12:57 AM
  #48
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I'm guessing because, right now, Tampa is being run by a bunch of morons.

Using your theory, I could question why Atlanta would trade Coburn for Zhitnik.
Not the same, because Atlanta was fighting for a playoff spot and wanted immediate help. Zhitnik went on to average almost a point a game and helped get the Thrashers into the playoffs.

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11-26-2008, 01:17 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Kambo View Post
I feel exactly the same. The trade still unsettles me, but I've accepted it, mainly because of the fact that I got the feeling Homer would try to get him back. And as soon as I heard that was the case from a legit person, I feel a whole lot better. Doesn't mean we will get him back, but from an organization standpoint, it tells me Homer knew Downie was being ****ed with. For some reason, I knew Homer held Downie to high standards.
Man oh man, if we can manage to get him back, with his head screwed on the right way, I will fly out my door and be buying that Downie jersey asap. I still might, but it's not at the top of the list anymore.
Cool we thought about it on the same level. No offense though honestly, that post gives me a lot of doubt. The non-returned stevens phone-call ... what can I say. I'm not calling you out. But it does feel quite contrived. It's too perfect a slap-in-the-face.

I'm taking it for what it's worth.

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11-26-2008, 01:19 AM
  #50
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I sometimes wonder if you guys watch the same games I watch. Carle has been our 2nd best dman since the day he came here. He's played better than Coburn, though not by much. Perhaps you guys forget how lost Coburn looked in the beginning of the season when he was given charge of the 2nd pairing and he didn't have Timonen covering his back. Coburn looked BAD!!! He definitely looked like he was heading for a sophomore slump until he was put back with Timonen. Makes you wonder just how much of Coburn looking good was due to Timonen.

We didn't have ANYONE on the team to run the 2nd pairing on defense until we got Carle. Carle helped Sbisa play better and he's made it so we can again split up Timonen and Coburn and NOT have Coburn look foolish. Plain and simply, without Carkle we don't have a viable 2nd pairing. WITH Carle we have a very solid 2nd pairing with him and Coburn.

Timonen is clearly our best dman. Carle and Coburn are close at 2nd and 3rd in that order but are a big step back from Timonen. Vannanen is our physical player, Albert is a stop-gap. Sbisa has played great for his age but teams are clearly starting to figure him out and his youth and inexperience are starting to show. He has shown that he has great potenital to be a top 4 dman some day but clearly once we get Jones and Parent back Sbisa needs to go back to juniors (though it does seem unlikely since he is buying a brand new BMW or Benz).

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