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Old
11-23-2008, 09:55 PM
  #51
NFITO
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Based on this thread, the agent for the Sedins should ask for $8+ a year each from the Canucks, and if the Canucks refuse the fans will revolt.
why would you suggest that?

because they are playing well and as fans, we don't see the need to really move them? or because you thought it'd be a good shot at canuck fans??

most of the talk about their contracts seems to suggest $5-5.5mill/each per year... at that price, I don't see why you'd consider moving them? regardless of contracts though... as a fan, I don't see the point at all in considering any major impact deals like this, while the team seems to have found some solid chemistry as a group.

doesn't mean I think they are $8mill players .... just means that in my opinion - why try and mess with a good thing that's working?

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11-23-2008, 09:57 PM
  #52
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Yeah who wouldn't want a franchise top 5 center, and a speedy 2 way winger for 3 ufas?

..and the Canuck's fans rejecting this proposal make it even 10x worse..

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Old
11-23-2008, 10:15 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Arjun View Post
Yeah who wouldn't want a franchise top 5 center, and a speedy 2 way winger for 3 ufas?

..and the Canuck's fans rejecting this proposal make it even 10x worse..
UFAs that will almost certainly be resigned... on a team that' leading the division with these UFAs playing big roles. Unlike on HF, making the playoffs is kinda important in the real NHL. I guess the team making millions influences that.

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Old
11-23-2008, 10:33 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
why would you suggest that? ...
most of the talk about their contracts seems to suggest $5-5.5mill/each per year...
See, for example, this: TSN Sedin's Agent Talks
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSN
While specifics weren't givin by Barry, his other comments point to the Sedins looking for a big raise.

"We just finished an extension negotiation for Shawn Horcoff, who did almost a carbon copy deal of the Sedins last time, and since that was done two years ago, Daniel and Henrik have outpaced him quite a bit offensively," Barry told the Team 1040. "So, we're going to see deals like that in the marketplace – the Gomez, Drury deal - for players who go free. They've outpaced both Gomez and Drury over the last three years. You know, they've outscored those players, and those players went free, so I think the question is 'What's the price to stay, and what's the price to go?'
Quote:
Originally Posted by ESPN
Gomez signed a seven-year deal with the Rangers worth $51.5 million -- including $10 million next season. Drury inked a five-year contract for $35.25 million. He will earn $7.1 million each of the next two seasons.
Any question why Barry will ask for the max? If you can sign them for $5-5.5M each do it now.

ESPN Source: ESPN NYR Contracts

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Old
11-23-2008, 10:57 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Any question why Barry will ask for the max? If you can sign them for $5-5.5M each do it now.
LOL, what teams can afford to offer the Sedins' $16M+ this off-season? Especially if the cap goes down? The Sedins have limited options if they want to remain together, which they do, and they want to remain in Vancouver. Perhaps Gillis wants to get a better idea of where the cap will be? Perhaps he wants to see if the Sedins disappear down the stretch like they did last year or if the Canucks make the playoffs if they can perform like 1st liners?

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11-23-2008, 11:19 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
LOL, what teams can afford to offer the Sedins' $16M+ this off-season? Especially if the cap goes down? The Sedins have limited options if they want to remain together, which they do, and they want to remain in Vancouver. Perhaps Gillis wants to get a better idea of where the cap will be? Perhaps he wants to see if the Sedins disappear down the stretch like they did last year or if the Canucks make the playoffs if they can perform like 1st liners?
First, note I said the agent should ask for/will ask for (not "will get"). If the Canucks offers remain at $5-5.5M or something in that range, then they become UFAs. As to what teams, see examples such as the Islanders - currently they pay Guerin 4.5M, Comrie 4M, Sillinger 2.3M, all of which are UFA2B, and they have plenty of cap room. Are you really going to pay each twin like half a Sundin? These are your "top 2 scorers", "key players", "2 80point(at least) players that consistently produce", "our best players" etc. If you try to underpay them, the LOL will be from the agent as he signs the twins to a new team.

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11-23-2008, 11:30 PM
  #57
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I think this is why most of us are up in arms..

Spezza- 100 pt. Potential. 25 years old, signed to a decent contract, beautiful playmaker.

Sedins- "Stronghold" of the offense. Take the brunt of the checking line. Have gelled with newly aquired Demitra. Producing points. Vancouver's "official" top line.

Ohlund- Defensive Cornerstone. UFA, RFA, CBA, ABC, doesn't make him any less valuable to our defence. Seriously, the guy is the staple which keeps our D-corps in tact. Wonder why the Canucks blew last year? Check how many games Ohlund played.



As wonderful as it would be to have Spezza, I'll have to pass. He's a wonderful player, no doubt, but he's a Playmaker and not a finisher. We have a ton of playmakers, and although they're not of Spezza's calbire, they get the job done. Sedins + Ohlund, although UFA's, make up our team, and like it or not I really don't see them going anywhere unless they don't resign (Which, in that case, makes pretty beautiful TD bait)

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Old
11-23-2008, 11:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
First, note I said the agent should ask for/will ask for (not "will get"). If the Canucks offers remain at $5-5.5M or something in that range, then they become UFAs. As to what teams, see examples such as the Islanders - currently they pay Guerin 4.5M, Comrie 4M, Sillinger 2.3M, all of which are UFA2B, and they have plenty of cap room. Are you really going to pay each twin like half a Sundin? These are your "top 2 scorers", "key players", "2 80point(at least) players that consistently produce", "our best players" etc. If you try to underpay them, the LOL will be from the agent as he signs the twins to a new team.
Aren't the Islanders losing something close to $20M this season and on shaky ground considering they don't have any concrete plans for a new arena? Yea, doubt they'd be players for the Sedins. One team I could see possibly making a serious attempt at signing the Sedins should they hit UFA status is the Montreal Canadiens, but they also have a lot of RFA's to lock up and appear to want to re-sign Koivu, Komisarek and Tanguay, so it's likely a no go. Anaheim is another, especially with Dave Nonis in the organization, but their defense will be decimated after this season with just Pronger signed and they'll likely use up the bulk of their cap space addressing that area.

Barry can ask for $8M all he wants, it's not going to happen, not from any team. The Sedins want to stay in Vancouver and have made it known that they are willing to take less to make it happen. Personally, I think they'll end up signing for $5.75M per. Is that a paycut? Certainly as I think they could possibly command up to $6.5M per from some team. But there certainly aren't many teams out there that can afford to drop $13M+ in one off-season and the ones that can likely aren't going to be desirable locations.

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Old
11-23-2008, 11:39 PM
  #59
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What does anyone think we can realistically get for a package of the Sedins? I'm not very flamboyant in my proposals, so shoot away.

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11-23-2008, 11:39 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalheadSen View Post
If Ohlund doesn't sign with you, you lose him for nothing.

Spezza is more of a gamebreaking player than the Sedins.

Vermette would kill with Kesler.

I love your posts and their ridiculousness.

Your posts are pretty ridiculous to. Vermette is crap and will always be crap. He is overated. He plays in the east. Spezza is a game-breaker you got that part right, but i'll say he will settle with 75 points without heatley potting in goals in for him.


Anyways with all this said, as an islander fan i'll see ottowa getting a top 10 pick with us as well

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Old
11-23-2008, 11:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Islanders25 View Post
Your posts are pretty ridiculous to. Vermette is crap and will always be crap. He is overated. He plays in the east. Spezza is a game-breaker you got that part right, but i'll say he will settle with 75 points without heatley potting in goals in for him.


Anyways with all this said, as an islander fan i'll see ottowa getting a top 10 pick with us as well
Vermette would be in your top six, maybe even on your top line.

Response to bold: How ironic. Spezza potted in 55 points playing in a defensive Jacques Martin system on third and fourth line minutes.

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11-24-2008, 01:32 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetalheadSen View Post
Vermette would be in your top six, maybe even on your top line.

Response to bold: How ironic. Spezza potted in 55 points playing in a defensive Jacques Martin system on third and fourth line minutes.
No he wouldn't. 5 points in 20 games doesn't beat Pyatt, Raymond, or Bernier (they've been our second line wingers). And he definitely wouldn't bump Wellwood off the second line centre position.

edit: I now realize that you are talking about the Islanders. Carry on.


Last edited by God: 11-24-2008 at 01:40 AM.
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Old
11-24-2008, 01:35 AM
  #63
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I think that many nuck fans get their knickers in a bunch because they feel that ppl are saying that the Value is off...

The value of the two packages are off because of the UFA status. If the twins and ohlund were under decent/fair contracts, i dont think the value would be to far off.

Ottawa is one of my favorite teams out side of Vancouver, i'd like to see them spread out the scoring...
imagine having heatly alfie on the top line..and the sedins on the second line (locked up of course), sex-c if u ask-me

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Old
11-24-2008, 01:41 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by lefty2time View Post
I think that many nuck fans get their knickers in a bunch because they feel that ppl are saying that the Value is off...

The value of the two packages are off because of the UFA status. If the twins and ohlund were under decent/fair contracts, i dont think the value would be to far off.

Ottawa is one of my favorite teams out side of Vancouver, i'd like to see them spread out the scoring...
imagine having heatly alfie on the top line..and the sedins on the second line (locked up of course), sex-c if u ask-me
It's not

The Sedins and Ohlund mean more to this team than Spezza and Vermette will. We leave a gap open on defense, and there's no way that Vermette makes up for the production lost between the Sedins and Spezza.

And at this point in the season, when the team is starting to gel, it would be a disaster to break up the team chemistry like that when we're leading the NW division.

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11-24-2008, 02:12 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Cao View Post
It's not

The Sedins and Ohlund mean more to this team than Spezza and Vermette will. We leave a gap open on defense, and there's no way that Vermette makes up for the production lost between the Sedins and Spezza.

And at this point in the season, when the team is starting to gel, it would be a disaster to break up the team chemistry like that when we're leading the NW division.
At no point did i say the Canucks should do that trade.
I merely said that the VALUE wasnt to far off... Value is a relative term. When I used it i wasnt using it as "vancouvers perceived value" or "ottawas perceived value" simply an unbiased perspective.

nxt time read, k thanks.

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Old
11-24-2008, 07:45 AM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
... I think way too many posters here are consumed with current and longterm contract value ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen
... there were no blockbuster deals ... The reason for that, said Murray, is that it's all about money today. It's not as easy to make trades as it sounds. "Every deal you make pretty much is about money," he said.
Personally I love that enough posters here are consumed with current and longterm contract value - to ignore that as the primary consideration in a trade proposal is silly imo. However I think that if in November 05, somebody had proposed trading Chara and Redden for a mid-20 #2 D and a mid-20 #4 D, the Sens fans would not have taken kindly to it. After we lost to the Sabres in the playoffs, and lost Chara for nothing, there would have been some discussions on how this proposal might have been okay perhaps. It would have been only when Redden's play became skunky, that some fans would have wished our GM had taken a long term view. However a deal for a mid-20 #2 D and a mid-20 # 4 D would never have been available, just like this proposal would not be available even if the Canuck fans could stomach it, which they understandably can't at this time.

Citizen: One deep NHL draft

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Old
11-24-2008, 08:17 AM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by officeglen View Post
Personally I love that enough posters here are consumed with current and longterm contract value - to ignore that as the primary consideration in a trade proposal is silly imo. However I think that if in November 05, somebody had proposed trading Chara and Redden for a mid-20 #2 D and a mid-20 #4 D, the Sens fans would not have taken kindly to it. After we lost to the Sabres in the playoffs, and lost Chara for nothing, there would have been some discussions on how this proposal might have been okay perhaps. It would have been only when Redden's play became skunky, that some fans would have wished our GM had taken a long term view. However a deal for a mid-20 #2 D and a mid-20 # 4 D would never have been available, just like this proposal would not be available even if the Canuck fans could stomach it, which they understandably can't at this time.

Citizen: One deep NHL draft
this is where I disagree with you.

Contract status is not the primary *consideration* in a trade proposal. And that's why it bugs me that all people focus on is contract status.

Contract status, IMO, is the primary basis of *value* in a trade... but before you even look at the value in a trade, you have to consider whether the player movement even makes sense for the team.

Whether Henrik and Daniel get traded isn't *first* based on what you can get back for a couple of soon to be UFAs... it's *first* based on the situation the team is in, and whether it makes sense for the team to first consider moving such key players, before considering what value they can bring back in a trade.

that's why - for the millionth time - teams that are playing well, NEVER EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SPORT (yea, it's that lopsided in historical examples) make such trades.... because the risk to the chemistry and success of the *current* team (which becomes the #1 focus of any team playing well right now), is more important than making sure you get something in return for every asset you have.

That's why the Sens didn't deal Chara and Redden... and that's why even though every single team in the NHL can see what has happened in the past - that out of 16 teams that go to the playoffs, half are eliminated after the 1st round, and only 1 wins the Championship, still every team, with all that history and those examples of teams that kept their soon to be UFAs, and failed, still every season will not deal their key soon to be UFAs, and many of them actually give up future assets to add rentals - well that should tell you something, shouldn't it?

you can criticize me all you want for being a homer, or ignoring their actual "trade market value" in such situations, because to me, when a team is playing that well, and these players are that huge a part of the overall success, you don't mess with it. I feel that way because that's how I've always seen teams operate throughout my 30 odd years of following the NHL. It hasn't changed... not with a new cap, not with with way FA is.. not with strong drafts... not with anything else.

That's why I'm confident in saying that no division leader right now would mess with their current chemistry and makeup of their team, because that current success is more important to them than building up for future success... and that's the way that *every* organization in the league has always operated.

so before you start arguing about what the Sedins value really is on the trade market, consider whether it's at all realistic to suggest that - UFA status or not - they would even be on the trade market... and if they're not, then it'd take a lot more than perceived market value under soon to be UFA contracts, to convince the canucks to move their two best offensive players in a season when the team is playing as well as they are.

and it's not overrating the Sedins, or being a homer... ALL teams in the NHL operate the same way... that's why you aren't going to see the Habs this season deal any of their soon to be UFAs - their top 4 highest paid forwards, and top 4 highest scorers on the team... you aren't going to see the Wings move any of Zetterberg, Hossa or Franzen... just like you didn't see the Sens move either of their 2 top dmen in the season when they were comfortably in a playoff spot... or the Sabres deal two of their top players when there were in that situation.

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Old
11-24-2008, 08:24 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by nuckfan in TO View Post
that's why - for the millionth time - teams that are playing well, NEVER EVER IN THE HISTORY OF THIS SPORT (yea, it's that lopsided in historical examples) make such trades
Stating it a million times and putting it in CAPS doesn't make it right - the reason why such trades never take place is they are not available - nobody offers mid-20 stars on long term decent contracts for UFA2B, or at least, as you put it, never ever in the history of this sport.

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Old
11-26-2008, 08:59 PM
  #69
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Heatley produces 100-105 points every season, sans last year when he looked slow playing through a shoulder injury.

The Sedins put up 70-80 points a year. (140-160)

Heatley: 7.5 million, Sedins together will make 10-12 million.

40 pts for 3-5 million in salary cap? Vermette makes up for that, no problem. Pass.
Two players who get 80 points each are worth more than a guy who gets 100 points. Pretty simple actually. If it were up to me i'd have no problems re-signing the Sedins for that much at all.

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11-26-2008, 09:12 PM
  #70
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Two players who get 80 points each are worth more than a guy who gets 100 points. Pretty simple actually.
Okay, let's look at that in 2007-2008: Roy + Pominville (BUF) worth more than Iginla, by your pretty simple actually theory.

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