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Old
07-15-2004, 11:56 AM
  #1
hockeyaddict101
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Arbitration

As disussed by many of us there may be a record number of players filing for arbitration as they try to use the CBA to their advantage.

http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html

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07-15-2004, 12:26 PM
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xauxi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
As disussed by many of us there may be a record number of players filing for arbitration as they try to use the CBA to their advantage.

http://spectorshockey.tripod.com/spe...e_rumours.html
I do not know how the arbitration works, but the players' salary has been rocketed is also a factor of the arbitrator's dicision as the following quote.

"Spector's Note: The reason so many will file is obvious: teams are tightening their payrolls in anticipation of the outcome of the next CBA and thus aren't as willing to offer up significant raises as in the past. By filing for arbitration, they'll put more pressure on the teams to come up in their offers, as the GMs will try to avoid having to pay out an arbitrator's award, which traditionally are higher than what the team offers."

Who are the arbitrators? and who control those arbitrators? Does anyone know?


"

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07-15-2004, 12:35 PM
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Yanner39
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The arbitrators are morons. I once read that the arbitrator actually fell asleep in one of the sessions. IMO, the current arbitration process is one of the main flaws in the current CBA. It's funny how salaries can increase after one, I repeat, one good season, and yet I've never seen an arbitrator reduce a player's salary based on a subpar season. I know it's isn't realistic to actually take money away from someone, but the whole process has to be self-adjusting. Right now, it isn't.

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07-15-2004, 03:10 PM
  #4
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They don't have that option

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. van Nostrin
The arbitrators are morons. I once read that the arbitrator actually fell asleep in one of the sessions. IMO, the current arbitration process is one of the main flaws in the current CBA. It's funny how salaries can increase after one, I repeat, one good season, and yet I've never seen an arbitrator reduce a player's salary based on a subpar season. I know it's isn't realistic to actually take money away from someone, but the whole process has to be self-adjusting. Right now, it isn't.
They can not reduce a salary and these arbitrators are lawyer who may or most likely do not know anything about the game.

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07-15-2004, 04:18 PM
  #5
Yanner39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
They can not reduce a salary and these arbitrators are lawyer who may or most likely do not know anything about the game.
Yeah, I wasn't serious abut that crack about the reduction of salary but it's frustrating nonetheless. It's funny how only players can opt for arbitration. This is a process that is clearly skewed towards the players. Either that on the GM have done a horrible job in the past.

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07-15-2004, 04:28 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaz44
They can not reduce a salary and these arbitrators are lawyer who may or most likely do not know anything about the game.
I haven't read enough to say for sure, but on calpuck someone posts that they can.

Here's a link to the CBA as well, if anyone understands all that talk.

calpuck link:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/forum_p...TID=21936&PN=1

cba link:

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article12.html

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07-15-2004, 04:35 PM
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I think arbitration is fair. The arbitrators are mutually agreed upon by the NHL and NHLPA, from a pool of professional labour dispute arbitrators. Its not magical, and the arbitrators are not slack jawed yokels. For any arbitration case you can read the previous decisions of the arbitrator, in various industries, over the course of their career.

Are they hockey experts? No. They are arbitration experts.

I think we've only really dug into a handful of arbs cases on here to try and project the outcome (Carter, Smith and Smyth). Mostly with 'speeds' help I think. But we were within $100k in all three cases. We had Smith at $2.2M based largely on Ragnarsson and Matvichuk, and it seems to me we had Deadmarsh, O'Neill and Friessen as comps for Smyth ... and he signed for $100k less than our guesstimate. I forget on Carter, I think Smolinski and Rucinsky were in there as comps at the time ... and Lowe signed him for $100k over what we guessed he would have been awarded.

Bottom line: IMHO if you take the time to really search for comparables in a sensible way, none of these case results should surprise you. And all this talk of "he signed for less to play here" that you hear fans in all cities say ... it reeks of wishful thinking to me.

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07-15-2004, 04:40 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by igor
I think arbitration is fair. The arbitrators are mutually agreed upon by the NHL and NHLPA, from a pool of professional labour dispute arbitrators. Its not magical, and the arbitrators are not slack jawed yokels. For any arbitration case you can read the previous decisions of the arbitrator, in various industries, over the course of their career.
The one thing, IMO,you can say about arbitration is that they do not generally set the market.

the market is "set" by contracts like Forsberg somehow making 11 mil before reaching UFA, Kariya at 10 mil for the longest time, Pronger's huge raise, Richard's contract, etc.

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07-15-2004, 04:47 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
I haven't read enough to say for sure, but on calpuck someone posts that they can.

Here's a link to the CBA as well, if anyone understands all that talk.

calpuck link:

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/forum_p...TID=21936&PN=1

cba link:

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article12.html
Ya, I think you're right speeds. they can arbitrate to a lower reward, nothgin in there that I read says you can't.

I've read that section a few times before ... but seeing it fresh again with the Smith situation in mind: Why not pick comparables that are way up the payroll list. Wax lyrical about Smith's intangibles and contribution to the community ... let him receive a REALLY high reward ... then walk away and hold the matching rights for any other offers? Sure ... gator would be pished, but business is business, or at least that's what the players always tell us.

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07-15-2004, 04:48 PM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
The one thing, IMO,you can say about arbitration is that they do not generally set the market.

the market is "set" by contracts like Forsberg somehow making 11 mil before reaching UFA, Kariya at 10 mil for the longest time, Pronger's huge raise, Richard's contract, etc.
Precisely. Very well said.

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07-16-2004, 02:58 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speeds
The one thing, IMO,you can say about arbitration is that they do not generally set the market.

the market is "set" by contracts like Forsberg somehow making 11 mil before reaching UFA, Kariya at 10 mil for the longest time, Pronger's huge raise, Richard's contract, etc.
Absolutely true. But the fact of the matter is that they don't really help things in terms of decreasing salaries either. They don't set the market but arbitration contributes a heck of a lot in terms increasing salaries throughout the years by giving other players comparable dollars. (that and the 110% raise for players under the league average)

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Old
07-16-2004, 03:02 AM
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momentai
Absolutely true. But the fact of the matter is that they don't really help things in terms of decreasing salaries either. They don't set the market but arbitration contributes a heck of a lot in terms increasing salaries throughout the years by giving other players comparable dollars. (that and the 110% raise for players under the league average)
I wonder how different the landscape would be now if teams had been allowed to file as well as the players?

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Old
07-16-2004, 04:11 AM
  #13
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Gotta agree with speeds & igor here.

Arbiters are far from being idiots with no clue about what's going on. The fact that they may no nothing about hockey emphasizes their positions as neutral parties. In fact, I am reassured with the idea that they may be "hockey idiots", as there it shows confidence that are not as biased toward either side. (although in most labour disputes, arbiters tend to side toward the business).

More importantly, the agents of players aren't idiots either. They make a calculated decision whether or not to file, and based on the environment and player history, pretty much only file when their chances are more than favourable of getting a good decision in the player's favour. If a player actually thought he was going to "lose" the case, he's more likely to just accept a team's qualifying offer. I see this as the main reason why the vast majority of salaries are increased due to arbitration. A player who has a risk of getting a bad deal out of arbitration wouldn't even get to that stage in the first place.

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Old
07-16-2004, 04:25 AM
  #14
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I am always very uncomfortable when one of the oilers gos into arbrition because its just not a good "team" environment. the posess sometimes can turn ugly On one side you have the managment who is trying to show the flaws and play down the player (so as to get a lower settlement) and the other side is the agent trying to get as much as possible. IMO the agents and the NHLPA should be ashamed of them selfs for having this type of system because it creates bad blood once everything is settled. After all said and done the management has picked apart all the minnor flaws of the player, Can you say loss of trust and confidence? yicks

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Old
07-16-2004, 02:23 PM
  #15
Digger12
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At least Brewer's the only one...

Look at the Sabres...8 guys filing, including our friend Mr. Hecht. I'm thinking Darcy Regier just cancelled a fishing trip or two.

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Old
07-18-2004, 10:37 AM
  #16
Yanner39
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http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam040717/nhl_edm-sun.html

This is a perfect example of why the arbitration system is flawed.

Brewer production has slipped, but because he will be compared to other defenseman around the league, he will get a raise? How much sense does that make. I agree with alot one what has been said in theis thread. Speeds and igor have made excellent points.

In the real world (I know I will get grilled for this), what I earned is as a result of my efforts and performance. In the NHL, it's arguable that a player will make a certain amount of money simply because he's a #1 or #2 defenseman and is being compared to a #1 or #2 defenseman on a different team.

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