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Sundin vs. Bouwmeester

View Poll Results: Sundin vs. Bouwmeester
Sundin 45 27.11%
Bouwmeester 121 72.89%
Voters: 166. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-04-2008, 09:23 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Habs10Habs View Post
Yes, my thoughts exactly.



I can see some similarities between Jay-Bo and Bret Hedican, they are both great skaters, neither are very physical. But IMO the similarities stop there, Hedican could only dream of having the offensive abilities that Jay-Bo has.
His offensive abilities are above average, not elite level. He skates well and has a good point shot. His vision and passing are nothing special.

The Hedican comparison is not that far boff but JB is a better version of Hedican at his prime. He is a younger version of Hamrlik...

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12-04-2008, 09:53 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Bouwneester far and ahead, especially if it's a trade and sign deal. a top 6 of Markov-Komisarek-Hamrlik-Bouwneester-O'byrne-Georges would be amazing, possibly the best D group in the league
lol um.... nope!

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12-04-2008, 10:15 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
His offensive abilities are above average, not elite level. He skates well and has a good point shot. His vision and passing are nothing special.

The Hedican comparison is not that far boff but JB is a better version of Hedican at his prime. He is a younger version of Hamrlik...
Honestly, even in his prime Hedican was never considered to be an "above" average offensive defenseman. So if you want to get technical, the comparison is weak. The only similarities are they are both terrific skaters. Bouwmeester would be a top pairing defenseman on any team. I don't think the same could be said of Hedican at anytime during his career.

I will agree with you though that the similarities between Jay-Bo and a young Hamrlik are not that far off.

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12-04-2008, 11:36 AM
  #54
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Bouwmeester for O'Byrne + Weber + pick.

Signing Sundin would me we are dressing 5 center-man a game, unless someone is demoted. I highly doubt Lang would be an effective 4th line centerman, fans would bark at management for demoting Koivu to the 3rd line, and Sundin doesn't have enough speed to run the 1st line show.

With Bouwmeester, you get a very competent defense men, that has offensive upside to his game. He's young, a very very good skater and puck mover (he's playing in the wrong system).

Sundin may bring you another 25-30 goals, but it won't solve the problem of goals against. With J-Bo, you'll get another 5-10 goals and a hell of a lot less goals against.

Last time i checked the NHL Playoffs weren't as high scoring as the regular season. Players that score 50 goals in the reg. season most of the time don't even manage to score 10, and seeing how the Playoffs are purely a defensive game...

Bouwmeester would be the wisest decision.

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12-04-2008, 11:48 AM
  #55
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Jay Bo no doubt about it

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12-04-2008, 11:55 AM
  #56
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Les deux

I'd rather have Bouwmeester. Makes our d better and could help our powerplay, so we wouldn,t have to hear "..they sure miss Souray an Streit out there" About 10 ****ing times a game.

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12-04-2008, 12:46 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Slippy13 View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but JBO logging this many minutes means hes very capable of being on the PK and PP right? How is he on the powerplay?
JBo is a stud in all situations.

And JBo always starts the season off slow and starts to heat up as the season progresses...

It's just my opinion but if Bob wanted to get him, it would be better to get him NOW as opposed to waiting until the deadline because JBo would be firing on all cylinders by then and his price would be astrononical with all the other teams wanting a piece of him then.

I'd say, just bite the bullet, trade away some clutter to make some cap room and do the trade for JBo while he is still relatively quiet...although there are already signs that he is warming up!

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12-04-2008, 12:52 PM
  #58
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????Why would it be questionable??????? If anything that would be the one thing you wouldn't have to worried about. The guy isn't motivated by money anymore, obviously, he just wants to win.

Commitment/Inspiration/Motivation would be the LEAST f my worries if we got Sundin.
Guys who take half a year off rarely does well upon their return even if they are supremely talented.

Case in point, Scott Niedermeyer, and even Marian Gaborik!!!

Sundin is, what? 38 years old now? At this old age, it would be even harder for someone to get their timing back and be useful enough by the time the playoffs come around.

This kind of half year off thing has never proven fruitful in the past even with the very top end players in their primes...it'll have disasterous effect on an aging veteran!

If this was September, 2008, then things may be different but the time for Matts Sundin as come and gone.

JUST SAY NO to Sundin.

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12-04-2008, 01:56 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by ForzaHabs View Post
Bouwmeester for O'Byrne + Weber + pick.

Signing Sundin would me we are dressing 5 center-man a game, unless someone is demoted. I highly doubt Lang would be an effective 4th line centerman, fans would bark at management for demoting Koivu to the 3rd line, and Sundin doesn't have enough speed to run the 1st line show.

With Bouwmeester, you get a very competent defense men, that has offensive upside to his game. He's young, a very very good skater and puck mover (he's playing in the wrong system).

Sundin may bring you another 25-30 goals, but it won't solve the problem of goals against. With J-Bo, you'll get another 5-10 goals and a hell of a lot less goals against.

Last time i checked the NHL Playoffs weren't as high scoring as the regular season. Players that score 50 goals in the reg. season most of the time don't even manage to score 10, and seeing how the Playoffs are purely a defensive game...

Bouwmeester would be the wisest decision.

If you sign Sundin you can trade Lang and get a draft pick back...2nd to 4th. The difference in cap hit is not that big. If you can get Sundin signed, you do it.

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12-04-2008, 01:58 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by David View Post
JBo is a stud in all situations.

And JBo always starts the season off slow and starts to heat up as the season progresses...

It's just my opinion but if Bob wanted to get him, it would be better to get him NOW as opposed to waiting until the deadline because JBo would be firing on all cylinders by then and his price would be astrononical with all the other teams wanting a piece of him then.

I'd say, just bite the bullet, trade away some clutter to make some cap room and do the trade for JBo while he is still relatively quiet...although there are already signs that he is warming up!
You are overrating him by using the word "stud". He does a lot of things well, but none of them great. He's a notch below Markov in terms of impact.

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12-04-2008, 02:09 PM
  #61
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IMHO, if we get Sundin then we improve only the two wingers he plays with.
If we get J-Bo, with his puck moving abilities and his defensive skill he will impact, to some extent, every single forward as well as his defense partner and our goaltenders.
As my 6 year old son says on the topic, "I hope the Habs never sign that Scumdin!"

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12-04-2008, 02:40 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
You are overrating him by using the word "stud". He does a lot of things well, but none of them great. He's a notch below Markov in terms of impact.
Obviously you haven't seen JBo play much...and being in a Floida market I'm sure doesn't help.

Markov may definitely have his moments but he is no JBo...and he hasn't even hit his prime yet while I argue that Markov already has.

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12-04-2008, 03:05 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by David View Post
Obviously you haven't seen JBo play much...and being in a Floida market I'm sure doesn't help.

Markov may definitely have his moments but he is no JBo...and he hasn't even hit his prime yet while I argue that Markov already has.
I have seen him play 20-30 times over his career. Markov has better vision, passing and puck moviling ablity. He is one of the best in the NHL in this aspect. JB is bigger and stronger than Markov but he doesn't have that level of ability with the puck. Markov is a top 10 NHL d-man...JB is a notch below that. He is not dominant offensively, defensively or physically but he is pretty good at all 3 aspects.

Florida has not been a powerhouse, but JB has had some pretty good players to play with and averages 40 points a year. He'll take the man, but is no more physical than Markov.

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12-04-2008, 04:32 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I have seen him play 20-30 times over his career. Markov has better vision, passing and puck moviling ablity. He is one of the best in the NHL in this aspect. JB is bigger and stronger than Markov but he doesn't have that level of ability with the puck. Markov is a top 10 NHL d-man...JB is a notch below that. He is not dominant offensively, defensively or physically but he is pretty good at all 3 aspects.

Florida has not been a powerhouse, but JB has had some pretty good players to play with and averages 40 points a year. He'll take the man, but is no more physical than Markov.
I agree that Markov has a better vision and can be more fluid with the puck but neither is Markov dominant offensively, defensively and especially not physcially.

I don't think that JBo sees the ice as well as Markov but he is a good passer in his own right. He is learning the offensive game and has an accurate shot even if it's not over powering like a Shea Weber or Sheldon Soursay shot.

Defensively, however, I think that JBo is a notch above Markov and is a horse and is often text book and has better positioning than Markov and he is much more consistant than Markov.

JBo also has one of the most beautiful skating strides in all of hockey that allows him to compensate for his over committments by getting back very quickly. I remember back when the Polish Prancer Mariusz Czerkawski was on the CH, how JBo was accelerating faster sideways than Mariusz was accelerating forwards at his full speed...and mind you Mariusz was not a slow player!

Physically, I wouln't say that JBo is physically dominant like a Dion Phaneuf but he knows how to use his body like a more phsycial version of a Lidstrom. About the only complaint that I have about JBo's game is that he needs to get a good helping of NASTY into his game.

And lastly, once again, JBo has still yet to hit his prime...the kid just only turned 25!!! Wait til this kid really gets going around age 27 and beyond!!!

Just to put this into perspective, 4 years ago when Markov was 25, he scored a whopping 28 points! And Markov has just recently started playing solid hockey in the last 3 years or so.

Contrary to that, when JBo was only a 19 or 20 years old in 2003, he was voted tournament's best defenseman at IIHF World Championships ahead of such noteworthy veteran NHL defensemen like Wade Reddon, Ed Jovanovski, Robyn Regheir, Lubomir Vishnovsky and Kimmo Timmonen.

All the growing pains for this kid has been paid for by the Panthers. Whoever nabs him now would hit the jack pot!

The only concern with JBo is that he's from Edmonton and there's a good chance that even if CH does get him for the 100 year Cup run, he might bolt next year to go play for his Oilers...but the good thing is that the Oil currently have too many D-men including Souray and Vish.

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12-05-2008, 03:35 AM
  #65
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Bouwmeester has picked up is game lately, in the last 11 games he as 12 points and is +5. That surely raises is value.

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12-05-2008, 10:25 AM
  #66
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It's no question right now that the Habs should make a move for Bouwmeester. As much as I hate it, Latendresse or Higgins could be the trading chips. One of those two, O'Byrne, a defensive prospect Subban/Carle/Weber, and a 1st in 2010. But most likely significantly less since Florida never gets any value for anyone.

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12-05-2008, 12:32 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David View Post
I agree that Markov has a better vision and can be more fluid with the puck but neither is Markov dominant offensively, defensively and especially not physcially.

I don't think that JBo sees the ice as well as Markov but he is a good passer in his own right. He is learning the offensive game and has an accurate shot even if it's not over powering like a Shea Weber or Sheldon Soursay shot.

Defensively, however, I think that JBo is a notch above Markov and is a horse and is often text book and has better positioning than Markov and he is much more consistant than Markov.

JBo also has one of the most beautiful skating strides in all of hockey that allows him to compensate for his over committments by getting back very quickly. I remember back when the Polish Prancer Mariusz Czerkawski was on the CH, how JBo was accelerating faster sideways than Mariusz was accelerating forwards at his full speed...and mind you Mariusz was not a slow player!

Physically, I wouln't say that JBo is physically dominant like a Dion Phaneuf but he knows how to use his body like a more phsycial version of a Lidstrom. About the only complaint that I have about JBo's game is that he needs to get a good helping of NASTY into his game.

And lastly, once again, JBo has still yet to hit his prime...the kid just only turned 25!!! Wait til this kid really gets going around age 27 and beyond!!!

Just to put this into perspective, 4 years ago when Markov was 25, he scored a whopping 28 points! And Markov has just recently started playing solid hockey in the last 3 years or so.

Contrary to that, when JBo was only a 19 or 20 years old in 2003, he was voted tournament's best defenseman at IIHF World Championships ahead of such noteworthy veteran NHL defensemen like Wade Reddon, Ed Jovanovski, Robyn Regheir, Lubomir Vishnovsky and Kimmo Timmonen.

All the growing pains for this kid has been paid for by the Panthers. Whoever nabs him now would hit the jack pot!

The only concern with JBo is that he's from Edmonton and there's a good chance that even if CH does get him for the 100 year Cup run, he might bolt next year to go play for his Oilers...but the good thing is that the Oil currently have too many D-men including Souray and Vish.
Where Markov is a notch above JB is hockey sense at both ends of the ice, he anticipates his teammates movements as well as the opposition's in the defensive zone. This is not something you notice just watching the game having a beer, you have to really pay attention. His vision on the ice is also top flight, look at the pass he made to Lang last night. JB is not on that level on those 2 things. To me that makes JB a notch below.

In terms of comparing them age wise, don't forget that Markov only came over at 22-23, he had a big culture/style adjustment. JB has been around for 7 years, grew up in Canada playing the NA game and he's plateaued where he is, as a top 20 d-man. Good at a lot of things but not great at any one of them.


I'm not knocking JB and would take him on the team any time, I think he would be awesome on the right point...but some tend to overrate him into being a Lidstrom or Niedermayer due to his size and skating.

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12-05-2008, 12:58 PM
  #68
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Where Markov is a notch above JB is hockey sense at both ends of the ice, he anticipates his teammates movements as well as the opposition's in the defensive zone. This is not something you notice just watching the game having a beer, you have to really pay attention. His vision on the ice is also top flight, look at the pass he made to Lang last night. JB is not on that level on those 2 things. To me that makes JB a notch below.

In terms of comparing them age wise, don't forget that Markov only came over at 22-23, he had a big culture/style adjustment. JB has been around for 7 years, grew up in Canada playing the NA game and he's plateaued where he is, as a top 20 d-man. Good at a lot of things but not great at any one of them.


I'm not knocking JB and would take him on the team any time, I think he would be awesome on the right point...but some tend to overrate him into being a Lidstrom or Niedermayer due to his size and skating.

Listen, I'm not gonna argue whether JBo or Markov is better with you because that's a moot point in this thread...and I've already given a detail assessment of JBo above.

However, if I had to take one or the other I would take JBo 10/10 times...and I think that most other GM's would agree too...and in fact, up to this point in time, they have.

There is a reason why he was the youngest Canadian to play at the WJC in history where only a handful of future greats like Gretzky, Lindros, Spezza, Crosby and JBo have ever played as 16 year olds.

And regardless of whether you developed in Russia or in the Canadian prairies, JBo was doing spectacular things shortly out of juniors that Markov wasn't able to do until his 26/27th birthday.

Granted, Markov started the D position late but even as a forward, Markov was drafted much lower than JBo who was projected to go 1st overall for 4 years until finally Doug Mclean pulled that Rick Nash move on the draft day.

JBo has a much higher upside than Markov and even now, I argue that JBo is a much more complete player and his offensive prowse is equal or better than Markov.

Even on a really, really bad Florida team, JBo is leading the team in scoring as a 25 year old defensman. Let's just get the boy here to Montreal and on a powerhouse offensive team like the CH, the sky's the limit for this young man...esp. if Bob were to convince him to sign with CH for the long term!

BTW, neither Niedermeyer nor Lidstrom have his size so I am not sure what your point is.

Lastly, and unfortunately, JBo is a natural left defenseman...with a left handed shot.


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12-05-2008, 01:14 PM
  #69
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Listen, I'm not gonna argue whether JBo or Markov is better with you because that's a moot point in this thread...and I've already given a detail assessment of JBo above.

However, if I had to take one or the other I would take JBo 10/10 times...and I think that without the homer glasses on, most other GM's would agree too...and in fact, up to this point in time, they have.

There is a reason why he was the youngest Canadian to play at the WJC in history where only a handful of future greats like Gretzky, Lindros, Spezza, Crosby and JBo have ever played as 16 year olds.

And regardless of whether you developed in Russia or in the Canadian prairies, JBo was doing spectacular things shortly out of juniors that Markov wasn't able to do until his 26/27th birthday.

Granted, Markov started the D position late but even as a forward, Markov was drafted much lower than JBo who was projected to go 1st overall for 4 years until finally Doug Mclean pulled that Rick Nash move on the draft day. There's reason for that.

JBo has a much higher upside than Markov and even now, I argue that JBo is a much more complete player and his offensive prowse is equal or better than Markov.

Even on a really, really bad Florida team, JBo is leading the team in scoring as a 25 year old defensman. Let's just get the boy here to Montreal and on a powerhouse offensive team like the CH, the sky's the limit for this young man...esp. if Bob were to convince him to sign with CH for the long term!

BTW, neither Niedermeyer nor Lidstrom have his size so I am not sure what your point is.

Lastly, and unfortunately, JBo is a natural left defenseman...with a left handed shot.
I don't see what he accomplished at 19 or 20 has anything to do with comparing 2 players. I'm sure a lot of guys were better than Zetterberg or Datsyuk at 18 or 19 and played better at the WJHC, that's not the argument here.

I know this is an extreme example but it proves a point...Chad Kilger had great size and skating but that doesn't mean he had the potential to be Mario Lemieux. Wayne Gretzky was a scrawny kid at 6' 170 but he had great vision and hockey sense.

I'm not saying JB is Igor Ulanov with the puck...but for the things I explained, he does not have Markov's capacity to make the great passes, anticiapte plays. He relies a lot more on his physical tools, which are very good. Just because he is 25 and Markov is 29 doesn't mean he will ever develop those abilities. There is a lot more to playing hockey than size, speed and a hard shot.

My point is that people think he will reach Niedermayer or Lidstrom's level of play/imact, I don't think he will ever reach that level. He has all their physical tools but not their level of thinking/seeing the game. In terms of size he is 6'4" they are both 6'2", none of the 3 is a physically dominant player though they will take the body.

In terms of playing right point, being a LH shot is perfect, as a RH shot could not shoot one times like Streit and Souray have done.

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12-05-2008, 01:28 PM
  #70
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I don't see what he accomplished at 19 or 20 has anything to do with comparing 2 players. I'm sure a lot of guys were better than Zetterberg or Datsyuk at 18 or 19 and played better at the WJHC, that's not the argument here.

I know this is an extreme example but it proves a point...Chad Kilger had great size and skating but that doesn't mean he had the potential to be Mario Lemieux. Wayne Gretzky was a scrawny kid at 6' 170 but he had great vision and hockey sense.I'm not saying JB is Igor Ulanov with the puck...but for the things I explained, he does not have Markov's capacity to make the great passes, anticiapte plays. He relies a lot more on his physical tools, which are very good. Just because he is 25 and Markov is 29 doesn't mean he will ever develop those abilities. There is a lot more to playing hockey than size, speed and a hard shot.

My point is that people think he will reach Niedermayer or Lidstrom's level of play/imact, I don't think he will ever reach that level. He has all their physical tools but not their level of thinking/seeing the game. In terms of size he is 6'4" they are both 6'2", none of the 3 is a physically dominant player though they will take the body.

In terms of playing right point, being a LH shot is perfect, as a RH shot could not shoot one times like Streit and Souray have done.

Actually, this is my point.

Chad, although highly touted, never really showed that he can play at young age (nor at old age for that matter) whereas Gretzky was highly touted and showed right away that he can play.

JBo did the same kind of thing at age 19/20 by showing the world that he can be the very best defensmen in a men's tournament full of NHL stars and veterans.

Others like Zet and Datsyiuks in your example had to go through a maturing process to become stars but there are truly greats that can step right in and perform at a very high level from a very young age.

Jay Bouwmeester has done that (although he could have been more consistant) through out his young career, playing what is arguably the most difficult position in hockey.

THAT is the difference.

That and the fact that JBo has still yet to hit his prime and is a stud in all areas of the game, including leading his piss/poor team in points and leading all defenseman in the LEAGEU (ie entire NHL) in TOI for the past few seasons.

It's not even close who is a better D-man when it comes to Markov and JBo.

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12-05-2008, 01:47 PM
  #71
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I'd go for JB any day. Sundin won't help us that much but he could improve our biggest weaknesses, the PP and the D corps.

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12-05-2008, 02:04 PM
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Unfortunately Darz, those would be my biggest concerns. No one hear would say they don't want Sundin. What concerns me is that he's been a star in the NHL for many years and suddenly he doesn't know if he wants to play anymore. I think Stevie Y put it best when he said if you're not 100% sure you want to retire then don't.

Sundin has been dragging his ass around since the summer and pulling interested teams along with him. If the guy was committed and motivated, wouldn't he have been ready to go come training camp? I mean it's not like he was injured or anything like that. Let's face it...he's just been dogging it.

Personally, not the kind of example I would want to bring into my dressing room with so many young and impressionable kids in the room.
He has also stated in numerous interviews that he wants to make sure that he's committed to the team that he goes to. That to me doesn't sound like a commitment problem.

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12-05-2008, 03:16 PM
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Actually, this is my point.

Chad, although highly touted, never really showed that he can play at young age (nor at old age for that matter) whereas Gretzky was highly touted and showed right away that he can play.

JBo did the same kind of thing at age 19/20 by showing the world that he can be the very best defensmen in a men's tournament full of NHL stars and veterans.

Others like Zet and Datsyiuks in your example had to go through a maturing process to become stars but there are truly greats that can step right in and perform at a very high level from a very young age.

Jay Bouwmeester has done that (although he could have been more consistant) through out his young career, playing what is arguably the most difficult position in hockey.

THAT is the difference.

That and the fact that JBo has still yet to hit his prime and is a stud in all areas of the game, including leading his piss/poor team in points and leading all defenseman in the LEAGEU (ie entire NHL) in TOI for the past few seasons.

It's not even close who is a better D-man when it comes to Markov and JBo.
I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse. JB has had very talented teammates the past few years and his offense has not been in the same stratosphere as Markov despite getting 4-5 more minutes of ice time per game. Markov is one of the reasons the Habs have had great PP's the last few years, he's the guy that set up Souray's one timer and Streit's shot, the guy that knows when to walk in from the point or make the soft cross ice pass.

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12-05-2008, 03:57 PM
  #74
David
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
I'm not going to keep beating a dead horse. JB has had very talented teammates the past few years and his offense has not been in the same stratosphere as Markov despite getting 4-5 more minutes of ice time per game. Markov is one of the reasons the Habs have had great PP's the last few years, he's the guy that set up Souray's one timer and Streit's shot, the guy that knows when to walk in from the point or make the soft cross ice pass.

Okay, this is going to be my last post to you since it's becoming more and more evident with your each successive post that you know very little about Jay Bouwmeester...

Which of his past team mates are you refering to when you say that he has had very talented teammates? Eric Cairns? Jason Cullimore? Martin Gelinas? Lyle Odelien? Pierre Dagenais?

The only players who you may remotely consider being offensive during young Bouwmeester's stay in Florida have been Olie Jokenin, and Nathan Horton in the last couple of years... and Richard Zednik.

Guys like Vickor Kozlov were half decent but only played during the first couple of seasons that JBo was with the club.

If there is one club that had worse players than CH during the last 8 years, it was Florida...and the young Bouw has been putting up about 40 points each year with this sad bunch of AHLer's each year!

He's the main guy on PP, on PK and even strength and logged the most ice time in all of NHL for the last three or four years on a piss/poor team while putting up very respectiable offensive numbers for a defensman!

And be reminded again that he did this while still a wee young man at age 21-24!!!

The potential for this young man is still enormous and even if we compare him at this stage of his development, landing this young man on your team would be like winning a lottery to many GM's!

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12-05-2008, 08:43 PM
  #75
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It matters most if JayBo can be signed. If not, don't trade for him and give up the farm.

With Sundin, you know what you are getting. A player who wants to win a cup (wanted to win an Olympic Gold Medal and look how great he played there), you get a 30+ scorer that will have more talent on the wings than he's EVER had at the NHL level, you get a decent penalty killer (very well the last two years as he's grown into the role) and tell me he's not going to help the Montreal PP from DAY 1, and finally you get a great guy from all the reports from former Leaf players.

So, if it's THIS YEAR ONLY, take Sundin, with bells on!

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