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The Rangers post Jagr have an Identity Crisis

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Old
12-05-2008, 03:26 PM
  #26
offdacrossbar
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yes.

our identity went to dallas......

http://nhl.fanhouse.com/2008/12/04/o...th-sean-avery/


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12-05-2008, 03:32 PM
  #27
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I think this is Lundqvist's team. I don't consider him the face of the team, though. I mean, to a degree yes. I think of Gomez and Zherdov. Maybe Gomez cause I'm a devil fan. I don't think of Drury because he's a pretty quiet guy. But I'd say those 3 guys. But even then, its a little weak.

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12-05-2008, 03:34 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
ONE injury? I think u need to look through his injury history again.
Confused him with Potter, but my point about his upside still stands.

If you think the Rangers have EVER gone into a rebuild you are sadly mistaken. Please, out of your specified timeline, when have we had a legitimate chance to draft a superstar? Once in 2003?

Rebuilding teams draft in the top-5, not 10th+. They also don't spend their time trading youth for big-time superstars.

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12-05-2008, 03:36 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Confused him with Potter, but my point about his upside still stands.

If you think the Rangers have EVER gone into a rebuild you are sadly mistaken. Please, out of your specified timeline, when have we had a legitimate chance to draft a superstar? Once in 2003?

Rebuilding teams draft in the top-5, not 10th+.
Exactly! And that's the problem!

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12-05-2008, 03:47 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
Confused him with Potter, but my point about his upside still stands.

If you think the Rangers have EVER gone into a rebuild you are sadly mistaken. Please, out of your specified timeline, when have we had a legitimate chance to draft a superstar? Once in 2003?
Rebuilding teams draft in the top-5, not 10th+. They also don't spend their time trading youth for big-time superstars.
Look through some of those draft in the 2nd round and see some names that went to other teams, look at what we got. Darin Olver, Ken Roche, Dane Byers. There were some big superstars that came out of those drafts beyond the 1st round. I also take that bolded statement as an excuse flat out plain and simple. We hear we have one of the best scouting teams in the NHL. You know Detroit never picks in the top 10 yet they manage to find superstars through thier drafts. There is also no excuse for that Jessiman pick, I haven't talked about that much since it's been covered here to death but we get a player with that pick and our rebuild is in a whole differernt phase 2 years ago. What made that pick even more important was it was the first pick in our official rebuild, even at the time of the pick fans and people following the team said how important it was for the Rangers to get a player with that pick. The Montoya pick made things even worse from there along with holding onto him way too long almost killing his trade value.

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12-05-2008, 04:48 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Look through some of those draft in the 2nd round and see some names that went to other teams, look at what we got. Darin Olver, Ken Roche, Dane Byers. There were some big superstars that came out of those drafts beyond the 1st round. I also take that bolded statement as an excuse flat out plain and simple. We hear we have one of the best scouting teams in the NHL. You know Detroit never picks in the top 10 yet they manage to find superstars through thier drafts. There is also no excuse for that Jessiman pick, I haven't talked about that much since it's been covered here to death but we get a player with that pick and our rebuild is in a whole differernt phase 2 years ago. What made that pick even more important was it was the first pick in our official rebuild, even at the time of the pick fans and people following the team said how important it was for the Rangers to get a player with that pick. The Montoya pick made things even worse from there along with holding onto him way too long almost killing his trade value.
The 2nd round? So you're basically saying every other team in the league has a bad scouting department. Those same players that fell to later rounds are the same players that got passed up by 30 other teams at least once. The draft is a crapshoot beyond the first round, and even in the first round or first overall, you might not get anything worthwhile.

The ONLY god awful pick was Jessiman. Montoya wasn't a bad pick. He was one of the most highly touted American goalie prospects in a long time and Lundqvist hadn't even played a single game in a Rangers uniform.

So please, sit here and tell me that you would have drafted a guy like Franzen in the first round when 29 other NHL teams with their professional scouts didn't.

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12-05-2008, 05:15 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The 2nd round? So you're basically saying every other team in the league has a bad scouting department. Those same players that fell to later rounds are the same players that got passed up by 30 other teams at least once. The draft is a crapshoot beyond the first round, and even in the first round or first overall, you might not get anything worthwhile.

The ONLY god awful pick was Jessiman. Montoya wasn't a bad pick. He was one of the most highly touted American goalie prospects in a long time and Lundqvist hadn't even played a single game in a Rangers uniform.

So please, sit here and tell me that you would have drafted a guy like Franzen in the first round when 29 other NHL teams with their professional scouts didn't.
The fact that you called Montoya a good pick with the other names left on the board at that point kills your whole arguement. Even in a crapshoot you would think we would get lucky once no? If you really think our drafting and trading for young players was so great why are we still overpaying players to come play here? Answer, because we don't have those players in the system from poor drafting. Again I don't think you remember 7 season of non playoff hockey. SEVEN LONG HARD SEASONS!

Sorry I expected better for my suffering. Does everyone forget how bad they sucked for how long?

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12-05-2008, 05:31 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The fact that you called Montoya a good pick with the other names left on the board at that point kills your whole arguement. Even in a crapshoot you would think we would get lucky once no? If you really think our drafting and trading for young players was so great why are we still overpaying players to come play here? Answer, because we don't have those players in the system from poor drafting. Again I don't think you remember 7 season of non playoff hockey. SEVEN LONG HARD SEASONS!

Sorry I expected better for my suffering. Does everyone forget how bad they sucked for how long?
Hindsight is nice. Montoya was in no way a bad pick.

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12-05-2008, 05:33 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Hindsight is nice. Montoya was in no way a bad pick.
Really? What do we have to show for it?

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12-05-2008, 05:36 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Really? What do we have to show for it?
Hindsight sure is nice.

Was Cherepanov a bad pick too?

The way things have gone for him does not change the fact that, for what he was predicted to be and where the Rangers were at the time, he was a good pick.

By the way, they have Sjostrom.

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12-05-2008, 05:44 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Really? What do we have to show for it?
Radek we had no goalie prospects. Nobody knew exactly what Lundqvist would become. Blackburn was done. We didn't have a goalie on broadway either. It's hard to find a #1 goalie on the market.

It was the right choice at the time.

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12-05-2008, 05:56 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rags225 View Post
Radek we had no goalie prospects. Nobody knew exactly what Lundqvist would become. Blackburn was done. We didn't have a goalie on broadway either. It's hard to find a #1 goalie on the market.

It was the right choice at the time.
I'm sorry I don't draft a goalie with the only top ten pick this team has had in recent memory. Just no need to draft goalies that hi. We couldn't have gotten a goalie in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds if it was such a need? Why waste the best pick we had in years for insurance? Bad pick.

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12-05-2008, 05:57 PM
  #38
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Montoya wasn't a bad pick, but picking Olesz would've made much more sense after having stolen Jagr from the Caps.

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12-05-2008, 06:07 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I'm sorry I don't draft a goalie with the only top ten pick this team has had in recent memory. Just no need to draft goalies that hi. We couldn't have gotten a goalie in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds if it was such a need? Why waste the best pick we had in years for insurance? Bad pick.
Because he wasn't insurance. Blackburn was a concern. Nobody knew what Lundqvist was going to be or if he was going to even come to North America.

You build from the net out. And they got the guy who was considered to be the best goalie in the draft.

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12-05-2008, 06:33 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Because he wasn't insurance. Blackburn was a concern. Nobody knew what Lundqvist was going to be or if he was going to even come to North America.

You build from the net out.
Thats fine but again why waste a 1st round pick on him? A top ten one to boot? We couldn't have gotten a goalie later in the draft or how about maybe trade down form 8? This draft we had two first round picks, and four 2nd round picks and I believe even more than that since we traded up to get Korp, that is terrible pick management. That is 6 picks out of the top 60 players. Maybe take that goalie in the 2nd round instead of Darin Olver or Dane Byers or Bruce Graham? How anyone can call our highest draft choice through a rebuild that turned into a guy on our 4th line a good pick, esp considering the guy we took the year before was a huge project we needed a player with that pick. Man you guys wonder why we suck year in and year out, last time we had two picks in the top 15 of the draft we came away with two busts as well. Please also remember we let a good player in Umberger walk for one of those 2nd round picks, actually I think the one we traded to move up and get Korp was the compensation pick for Umberger. So RJ + 1st for Korp, yeah good trade!

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12-05-2008, 08:15 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I'm sorry I don't draft a goalie with the only top ten pick this team has had in recent memory. Just no need to draft goalies that hi. We couldn't have gotten a goalie in the 2nd or 3rd or 4th rounds if it was such a need? Why waste the best pick we had in years for insurance? Bad pick.
Goalies taken in the top 30 picks since 1990:

1990- Trevor Kidd, Brodeur (potvin was #31)
1991- none
1992 - none
1993 - Thibault, Tyler Moss
1994 - Jamie Storr, Eric Fichaud, Evgeni Ryabchikov, Dan Cloutier
1995 - Jean-Sebastien Giguere, Martin Biron, Brian Boucher, Marc Denis
1996 - Craig Hillier
1997 - Roberto Luongo (#4), Mika Noronen, Jean-Francois Damphousse, Jean-Marc Pelletier
1998 - Patrick DesRochers, Mathieu Chouinard,
1999- Brian Finley, Maxime Ouellet, Ari Ahonen
2000 - Rick DiPietro (#1), Brent Krahn,
2001 - Pascal Leclaire, Dan Blackburn, Jason Bacashihua, Adam Munro
2002 - Kari Lehtonen (#2), Cam Ward, Hannu Toivonen
2003 - Marc-Andre Fleury (#1),
2004 - Al Montoya, Devan Dubnyk, Marek Schwarz, Cory Schneider
2005 - Carey Price (#5), Tuukka Rask,
2006 - Jonathan Bernier, Riku Helenius, Semen Varlamov, Leland Irving

no need to go further. But as you can see here, most of the top goalies in the NHL today came from the first round (or what would have been the first round today) as well as many other good goalies. So there is good reason why you take a goalie in the first round.

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12-05-2008, 08:29 PM
  #42
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At the time...

Montoya was not a bad pick. It was not popular, but for the wrong reasons. The reason being is that it's not sexy to draft a goalie - he doesn't hit hard in the open ice and doesn't dazzle with the puck. The Rangers goaltending depth was very questionable and from the time Richter first hurt his knee until Lundqvist took nets, the position was a very unpredictable one. It was a good pick at the time.

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12-05-2008, 09:13 PM
  #43
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2004 was a weak draft to begin with. Look at the picks after Montoya. Olesz, picard, smid, valabik, tukonen, thelen. None of these guys are very impressive or that special. The only good pick after Montoya was probably Radulov at 15. So even if there wasn't the urgency to draft a goalie, chances are the rangers wouldn't have gotten anything very good out of this first round. So to say Montoya is a bad pick when this team's future goalie situation was up in the air is not very fair considering everything else.

In all honesty the rangers have to find a way to move up in this years draft and get someone that could really make an impact on this roster and can step in within a year. The lack of upper end talent being drafted on this team is horrible. It would be nice to have someone on the cheap that can score goals for once.

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12-05-2008, 10:44 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The fact that you called Montoya a good pick with the other names left on the board at that point kills your whole arguement. Even in a crapshoot you would think we would get lucky once no? If you really think our drafting and trading for young players was so great why are we still overpaying players to come play here? Answer, because we don't have those players in the system from poor drafting. Again I don't think you remember 7 season of non playoff hockey. SEVEN LONG HARD SEASONS!

Sorry I expected better for my suffering. Does everyone forget how bad they sucked for how long?
You're really in no place to be questioning my hockey memory if you're claiming Montoya was a bad pick. As so many others have explained to you in this thread, we needed him. Even in hindsight, aside from Mike Green, there aren't many guys in that draft that I would have taken at #6 aside from Monty.

I never said our drafting was great, but it certainly wasn't as awful as you were making it out to be. Why didn't we get lucky once? Remember that Lundqvist guy? We drafted a Vezina caliber goalie in the 7th round, I don't think you can get any luckier than that.

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12-06-2008, 12:07 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You're really in no place to be questioning my hockey memory if you're claiming Montoya was a bad pick. As so many others have explained to you in this thread, we needed him. Even in hindsight, aside from Mike Green, there aren't many guys in that draft that I would have taken at #6 aside from Monty.

I never said our drafting was great, but it certainly wasn't as awful as you were making it out to be. Why didn't we get lucky once? Remember that Lundqvist guy? We drafted a Vezina caliber goalie in the 7th round, I don't think you can get any luckier than that.
You need a goalie in a draft where you have two first rounders you take the goalie with the later pick, esp when you have the 2nd rounders to trade up in case u see a guy you may like slipping away. Montoya was not the only good goalie to come out of that draft, he still may turn out to be one of the worst. If you look at the Rags225 post made all the picks he highlighted that were top ten picks were FRANCHISE goalies. Was Montoya even considered a sure fire 1st rounder before that WJC performance?
Only on a Ranger board you have posters putting the name of Al Montoya up there with MA Fleury, Roberto Luongo, and Kari Lehtonen. The again didn't our guys say they had Korp rated 5 in the whole draft? WOWZA

Also we need a goalie at the time? During this draft the Lundqvist buzz already started. No we didn't realize he was a franchise goalie but we knew we had a good prospect on our hands. Drafting Montoya after he already committed to college we knew he was going to be a long wait for him. How he did anything to help our goaltending situation at that time I have no idea, because he didn't.

So lets refresh:
No NHL action still, not even a back up role.
Lost his minor league job here to Wiikman.
On his 2nd team and we got jack back for him
Not many people would call this a great pick folks when we held the 6th OV pick in that draft. I wasn't aware zero NHL games and falling minor league numbers a great prospect makes.

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12-06-2008, 12:37 AM
  #46
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So from Drafts:

G Lundqvist
D Staal, Girardi(undrafted)
C Dubinsjy
RW Callahan, Prucha
LW Dawes,Korpikoski

That is pretty good to me and more to come with Potter, Anisimov and maybe Byers once he gets healthy

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12-06-2008, 12:39 AM
  #47
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isnt Lundquist your face player

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12-06-2008, 12:51 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
So from Drafts:

G Lundqvist
D Staal, Girardi(undrafted)
C Dubinsjy
RW Callahan, Prucha
LW Dawes,Korpikoski

That is pretty good to me and more to come with Potter, Anisimov and maybe Byers once he gets healthy
You also forgot to mention the future of Sang and Del Zotto.

We could possibly have a top 6 D from our farm of Staal, Girardi, Sang, DZ, Sauer, and Potter.

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12-06-2008, 12:59 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
You need a goalie in a draft where you have two first rounders you take the goalie with the later pick, esp when you have the 2nd rounders to trade up in case u see a guy you may like slipping away. Montoya was not the only good goalie to come out of that draft, he still may turn out to be one of the worst. If you look at the Rags225 post made all the picks he highlighted that were top ten picks were FRANCHISE goalies. Was Montoya even considered a sure fire 1st rounder before that WJC performance?
Only on a Ranger board you have posters putting the name of Al Montoya up there with MA Fleury, Roberto Luongo, and Kari Lehtonen. The again didn't our guys say they had Korp rated 5 in the whole draft? WOWZA
You're still completely missing the point, and that doesn't surprise me at all. Your entire argument is based on hindsight and nobody is comparing Montoya to Luongo in any other sense other than the fact that they were both taken high in the first round. You said you wouldn't waste a high pick on a goalie, and Rags showed you that most NHL organizations will.

Quote:
Also we need a goalie at the time? During this draft the Lundqvist buzz already started. No we didn't realize he was a franchise goalie but we knew we had a good prospect on our hands. Drafting Montoya after he already committed to college we knew he was going to be a long wait for him. How he did anything to help our goaltending situation at that time I have no idea, because he didn't.
Buzz means jack. There was buzz around Daigle and look how that worked out. God forbid we actually had more than one solid goalie prospect, right? It's probably better to rest the fate of an organizations most valuable position on the 'buzz' surrounding a player than to actually have a back-up plan.

Quote:
So lets refresh:
No NHL action still, not even a back up role.
Lost his minor league job here to Wiikman.
On his 2nd team and we got jack back for him
Not many people would call this a great pick folks when we held the 6th OV pick in that draft. I wasn't aware zero NHL games and falling minor league numbers a great prospect makes.
Maybe you should have told the Rangers organization this stuff back in 2004, since you obviously knew it was going to happen. Heck, I'm sure there a few late rounders in 09 that will shape up to be better than some overhyped 1st rounders. Why don't you write them down for us and we can send them to Slats?

Again, Montoya turned out to be a lousy pick in hindsight, yet he was a very highly touted prospect entering the draft. That's the only relevant fact in this debate. Carey Price was taken 5th overall and was about as hyped as Montoya was, fortunately for him (and the Habs) he seems to be living up to the hype.

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12-06-2008, 01:16 AM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vitto79 View Post
So from Drafts:

G Lundqvist
D Staal, Girardi(undrafted)
C Dubinsjy
RW Callahan, Prucha
LW Dawes,Korpikoski

That is pretty good to me and more to come with Potter, Anisimov and maybe Byers once he gets healthy
Your happy with that after 7 years of no playoffs?

I guess i'm harder to please.........

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