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Old
12-06-2008, 01:25 AM
  #51
Radek27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
You're still completely missing the point, and that doesn't surprise me at all. Your entire argument is based on hindsight and nobody is comparing Montoya to Luongo in any other sense other than the fact that they were both taken high in the first round. You said you wouldn't waste a high pick on a goalie, and Rags showed you that most NHL organizations will.



Buzz means jack. There was buzz around Daigle and look how that worked out. God forbid we actually had more than one solid goalie prospect, right? It's probably better to rest the fate of an organizations most valuable position on the 'buzz' surrounding a player than to actually have a back-up plan.



Maybe you should have told the Rangers organization this stuff back in 2004, since you obviously knew it was going to happen. Heck, I'm sure there a few late rounders in 09 that will shape up to be better than some overhyped 1st rounders. Why don't you write them down for us and we can send them to Slats?

Again, Montoya turned out to be a lousy pick in hindsight, yet he was a very highly touted prospect entering the draft. That's the only relevant fact in this debate. Carey Price was taken 5th overall and was about as hyped as Montoya was, fortunately for him (and the Habs) he seems to be living up to the hype.
Um hindsight? Isn't that what we do here at HF? We get into the drafts and then come back and evaluate them a few years later, esp a Ranger prospct on a Ranger board almost 4 years after being drafted? Oh the humanity!! My original post was this rebuild has not been as good as we had hoped it would be forcing the franchise to yet again overpay players to come here and be our core. Like I said in the past post, maybe I just expected too much with all those draft picks and young players we traded for.

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12-06-2008, 06:05 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by coolbean04 View Post
I'll answer you question. I'll start with the 2001 draft since you don't want to include Lundqvist in 2000.

2001:

1. Blackburn - Freak Injury, what can you do?
2. Tyutin - A nice player, got us Zherdev
6. Zidlicky - Has some great NHL #'s for a 6th rounder
8. Hollweg - Made the NHL

2002:

2. Falardeau - Our first pick was a 2nd rounder. A Bust.
8. Prucha - Is a huge success just making it to the NHL

2003:

1. Jessiman - A HUGE bust
2. Baranka - Still an NHL prospect that can make the NHL
5. Dawes - Is a nice player for being a 5th rounder

2004:

1. Montoya - Emergency pick. We didn't know what Lundqvist would've been an all-star and panicked due to Blackburn's injury.

I think he could've been a nice NHL goalie if we didn't stunt his growth.

1. Korpikoski - A nice prospect, can develop into a solid player
2. Byers - Still an NHL prospect, probably won't live up to being a solid player for a 2nd round pick.

2. Dubinsky - Need I say more?

4. Callahan - Nice NHL player

2005:

1. Staal - Need I say more?
2. Sauer - Still a nice prospect
2. Cliche - Got us Avery who helped turn this team around

2006:

1. Sanguinetti - Solid prospect
2. Anisimov - Solid Prospect

2007:

1. Cherepanov - Solid prospect that ended with tragedy.
- Draft too recent to judge the rest.

2008:

1. Del Zotto - Solid prospect.
- Draft too recent to judge the rest.

Summary:

We have actually had solid drafts, especially in the later rounds.

Lets just talk about the 1st round picks.

In 8 drafts we have had 8 1st round picks.

2 - Led to freak injury and Death, nothing you can do.
3 - Solid prospects still (Sang, DZ, Korpedo)
1 - Franchise player - Staal.
2 - Busts - Jessiman & Montoya. Montoya is understandable since we panicked. We felt we had no goalie once Blackburn got hurt.

So really, you have 1 true bust in 8 drafts. You also can't forget about the success in later rounds.

8 drafts =

Tyutin = Zherdev
Zidlicky - Succeeded not as a Ranger
Prucha
Dawes
Korpedo
Dubinsky
Callahan
Staal

Solid Prospects

Sang
Anisimov
Del Zotto

Still be NHL regulars

Byers
Sauer

So that's 13 players making the NHL while also having two tragedies to 1st round picks in Blackburn & Cherepanov.

I rate our draft success an B+



I'll break it down further......Sather gets a D in drafting goalies, an A- drafting defensemen, and a C in drafting forwards.


The fact that the Rangers have drafted only one 20-goal scorer (don't give me that "potential" stuff) in the last 10 years (maybe more) is a disgrace to the Scouting department

I'll go even further. Aside from Prucha's freak rookie season, the last Rangers draft pick to score 30 goals in an NHL season was, yup you guessed it, 1991 draftee Alexei Kovalev (who never scored 30 for the Rangers). The last Rangers pick to score 30 FOR the Rangers....Sergei Nemchinov, drafted in 1990 (who was an int'l veteran by the time he came to the Rangers)


The Rangers haven't been abysmal at drafting. But pretty close to it. I guess one Cup in almost 70 years is the ultimate punishment for that.

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12-06-2008, 08:08 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Really? What do we have to show for it?
The point is that Montoya was the BPA at the time. Regardless of how he turns out, one can only fry Sather so much for that pick. Going with the BPA is always the smart choice.

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12-06-2008, 11:09 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Look through some of those draft in the 2nd round and see some names that went to other teams, look at what we got. Darin Olver, Ken Roche, Dane Byers. There were some big superstars that came out of those drafts beyond the 1st round. I also take that bolded statement as an excuse flat out plain and simple. We hear we have one of the best scouting teams in the NHL. You know Detroit never picks in the top 10 yet they manage to find superstars through thier drafts. There is also no excuse for that Jessiman pick, I haven't talked about that much since it's been covered here to death but we get a player with that pick and our rebuild is in a whole differernt phase 2 years ago. What made that pick even more important was it was the first pick in our official rebuild, even at the time of the pick fans and people following the team said how important it was for the Rangers to get a player with that pick. The Montoya pick made things even worse from there along with holding onto him way too long almost killing his trade value.
You can't really blame management for the Jessiman pick. Did you know Messier was drafted in the second round. Could you imagine if teams could do that draft all over again. Plus Sather made up for that by getting Zherdev in a trade, who went at number 4 that year. Not only that but you have to cut Sather some slack for picking up an all star goal tender in the late rounds (The King).
As far a Montoya goes. We got Sjostrom back. He's an excellent 4th line player when compared to Hollweg but Sjostrom was a first round pick and I think he can play on any line. 1 through 4.

If you look at our blue line. As far as youth goes it's real solid. We've just seen a bit of what Staal can do. He' going to be a great shut down defender for years to come. Plus, he also has offensive ability. Throw in Del Zotto. This guy was a great pick. Could be the next Leetch the way he handles the puck. Just needs to get stronger (and i hate the argument that Del Zotto was good because of Stamkos. Maybe it was the other way around or a combination of the two. Del Zotto's numbers are solid now and no Stamkos). Sather picked up guys like Girardi who is terrific back there. He didn't even go in the draft. Not to mention the potential Sauer has if he stays healthy (Which I believe he will) and Sanguinetti.

As far as on the offensive end. We lost possibly the greatest offensive weapon in the NHL in Cherepanov. But you have to like what some other kids are doing like Haeglin, Doyle, and Grachev, Stepan (the young kid from Wisconsin), David Kveton who's upped his game in the Czech Republic. Then we have guys with potential that just need more time to develop.
Dubinsky, Callahan, Dawes, Korpokoski, Fritche, Byers (who sadly is injured in Hartford right now), Anisimov, Pyatt, Dupont, etc... There's no telling what these guys are going to be capable of. They are all young and have a ton of potential. As they continue to develop I would like to think they will fulfill their potential and know that many of these kids will develop more and more as time goes on and the Rangers will become a team again.

Not just a bunch of old overpaid bums slopped together like Neil Smith style. And it's not exactly like the Rangers are in last place either. Who knows what Sather will come up with in next year's draft but I like what he's doing. All of the players I mentioned have not been traded and I hope it stays that way. NY fans do not see many championship teams because all we want to do is win now!!

I commend Sather for doing his job and not paying any attention to the fans or media. Just going out there and listening to his scouts and making good draft picks to build a solid Rangers franchise for years and years. Not just "lets go out and try and build a 1994 team every year." This team needs it's identity back. The only way to do that is build teams through your own organization and find the coach who is going to "right the ship."

This franchise takes a step backward if we have to give up any picks for an old Sundin or Shannhan and forget about Avery. If you look at the star players from say the most successful team in hockey as of late, the Detroit Red Wings, it took these guys a while to develop as well as a lot of good scouting. I think we're heading in that direction.


Last edited by gravytrain6t: 12-06-2008 at 11:14 AM.
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12-06-2008, 12:31 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Your happy with that after 7 years of no playoffs?

I guess i'm harder to please.........
now you are just putting words in peoples mouths. Hes talking about some solid solid picks the rangers have had and you then assume he was happy with 7 years without the playoffs?


Radek i dont think you realize just how big a crap shoot drafting players are. (just look at Alex Daigle) And I dont think you or any of us who have barely seen any of these players play should be criticizing the scouting staff. Let me ask you this. Who in hindsight would you have drafted instead of Montoya? Key word is hindsight, which is something your completely ignoring.

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12-06-2008, 12:39 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Um hindsight? Isn't that what we do here at HF? We get into the drafts and then come back and evaluate them a few years later, esp a Ranger prospct on a Ranger board almost 4 years after being drafted? Oh the humanity!! My original post was this rebuild has not been as good as we had hoped it would be forcing the franchise to yet again overpay players to come here and be our core. Like I said in the past post, maybe I just expected too much with all those draft picks and young players we traded for.
Also you act like the rangers actually had the opportunity to rebuild. We all know this supposed rebuild started in the firesale of 04. What happens next? Jagr leads us to the playoffs the next 3 years and leaves us with lower rounded draft picks. A rebuild is like what the penguins had going for them, getting top 10 draft picks year after year because they simply sucked. We've had a total of 1 top 10 draft pick (in a very very weak draft) the last 8 years.

Lets look at reality. The rangers never went into a rebuild.

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12-06-2008, 12:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by TheZherdev View Post
Also you act like the rangers actually had the opportunity to rebuild. We all know this supposed rebuild started in the firesale of 04. What happens next? Jagr leads us to the playoffs the next 3 years and leaves us with lower rounded draft picks. A rebuild is like what the penguins had going for them, getting top 10 draft picks year after year because they simply sucked. We've had a total of 1 top 10 draft pick (in a very very weak draft) the last 8 years.

Lets look at reality. The rangers never went into a rebuild.
Correct, and there is the problem. That's why we're in this mess. We never finished any rebuild.

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12-06-2008, 12:49 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Correct, and there is the problem. That's why we're in this mess. We never finished any rebuild.
Yea but wouldn't you say, we're in the process. I mean, we're not trading away any of our top picks or our young players on the team with potential.

You could almost guarantee if Smith was still running things he would have traded Staal, Dubinskly and Anisimov for a few old time has beens by now right? I'm sorry. Maybe Smith would've gotten a few future considerations out of it as well.

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12-06-2008, 01:19 PM
  #59
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The rangers had an identity crisis when Jagr was here, is this really thread worthy?


Last edited by pzilla3: 12-06-2008 at 01:48 PM.
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12-06-2008, 01:36 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Correct, and there is the problem. That's why we're in this mess. We never finished any rebuild.
no our drafting hasnt been that bad. We are in this mess because we yet again screwed up with our FA signings. This team should have been patient and waited to sign a kovalchuk, gaborik, or a nash. Elite game breakers. But this team wasnt willing to take a step back to move forward. And its very bothersome considering ranger fans were ready to be patient for it to happen until we threw our money all over gomez and drury. This team could have played its cards right, but it didnt.

Still bothers me that Zdano Chara was an available FA in 06 and we could have had him for 7.5 mill yet now were stuck with redden for 6.5....

Hopefully they can correct the ship by letting go of redden and roszival. by the 2010 FA. This team has to make a serious bid for kovalchuk. And if they cant get him they have to try just as hard to get nash. Having a true sniper on this team will make them a contender.

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12-06-2008, 02:20 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by TheZherdev View Post
now you are just putting words in peoples mouths. Hes talking about some solid solid picks the rangers have had and you then assume he was happy with 7 years without the playoffs?


Radek i dont think you realize just how big a crap shoot drafting players are. (just look at Alex Daigle) And I dont think you or any of us who have barely seen any of these players play should be criticizing the scouting staff. Let me ask you this. Who in hindsight would you have drafted instead of Montoya? Key word is hindsight, which is something your completely ignoring.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying there TheZherdev. My question was with the small list of players he put up and the names in it. Is he happy with that after 7 years of non Ranger playoff hockey. Not that he was happy we missed the playoffs, but was that list of players worth us missing the playoffs for 7 years. I myself was hoping for a bit more during the dark days when this all first started.

My problem isn't that we took Montoya, that we took him at 6. BPA pick could have also been Olesz which about 80% of the Ranger fans expected here at HF with us easily picking up a solid netminder with the other first round draft pick, probably without having to move up to do so.


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12-06-2008, 03:24 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by coolbean04 View Post
I'll answer you question. I'll start with the 2001 draft since you don't want to include Lundqvist in 2000.

2001:

1. Blackburn - Freak Injury, what can you do?
2. Tyutin - A nice player, got us Zherdev
6. Zidlicky - Has some great NHL #'s for a 6th rounder
8. Hollweg - Made the NHL

2002:

2. Falardeau - Our first pick was a 2nd rounder. A Bust.
8. Prucha - Is a huge success just making it to the NHL

2003:

1. Jessiman - A HUGE bust
2. Baranka - Still an NHL prospect that can make the NHL
5. Dawes - Is a nice player for being a 5th rounder

2004:

1. Montoya - Emergency pick. We didn't know what Lundqvist would've been an all-star and panicked due to Blackburn's injury.

I think he could've been a nice NHL goalie if we didn't stunt his growth.

1. Korpikoski - A nice prospect, can develop into a solid player
2. Byers - Still an NHL prospect, probably won't live up to being a solid player for a 2nd round pick.

2. Dubinsky - Need I say more?

4. Callahan - Nice NHL player

2005:

1. Staal - Need I say more?
2. Sauer - Still a nice prospect
2. Cliche - Got us Avery who helped turn this team around

2006:

1. Sanguinetti - Solid prospect
2. Anisimov - Solid Prospect

2007:

1. Cherepanov - Solid prospect that ended with tragedy.
- Draft too recent to judge the rest.

2008:

1. Del Zotto - Solid prospect.
- Draft too recent to judge the rest.

Summary:

We have actually had solid drafts, especially in the later rounds.

Lets just talk about the 1st round picks.

In 8 drafts we have had 8 1st round picks.

2 - Led to freak injury and Death, nothing you can do.
3 - Solid prospects still (Sang, DZ, Korpedo)
1 - Franchise player - Staal.
2 - Busts - Jessiman & Montoya. Montoya is understandable since we panicked. We felt we had no goalie once Blackburn got hurt.

So really, you have 1 true bust in 8 drafts. You also can't forget about the success in later rounds.

8 drafts =

Tyutin = Zherdev
Zidlicky - Succeeded not as a Ranger
Prucha
Dawes
Korpedo
Dubinsky
Callahan
Staal

Solid Prospects

Sang
Anisimov
Del Zotto

Still be NHL regulars

Byers
Sauer

So that's 13 players making the NHL while also having two tragedies to 1st round picks in Blackburn & Cherepanov.

I rate our draft success an B+
Maybe its a better idea to look at who the Rangers have passed on in recent drafts to determine how good their scouting and drafting has been. For example I know they had a chance to draft Parise but didn't...other than that I don't know much about the recent draft history. Can someone fill me in?

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12-06-2008, 05:58 PM
  #63
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We didn't have an identity WITH Jagr... we haven't been known for playing a specific style of hockey in quite a while

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12-06-2008, 09:28 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
I think you misunderstood what I was saying there TheZherdev. My question was with the small list of players he put up and the names in it. Is he happy with that after 7 years of non Ranger playoff hockey. Not that he was happy we missed the playoffs, but was that list of players worth us missing the playoffs for 7 years. I myself was hoping for a bit more during the dark days when this all first started.

My problem isn't that we took Montoya, that we took him at 6. BPA pick could have also been Olesz which about 80% of the Ranger fans expected here at HF with us easily picking up a solid netminder with the other first round draft pick, probably without having to move up to do so.
Yea but the problem is we went through the same problem as the Maple Leafs have the last couple years. Even though we didn't make the playoffs, we werent near last place doing. We were always the team that ended just a few spots shy and that never really gave us a top draft pick and always left us in the middle of the pack when drafting. I think our biggest problem has been bad luck in the first round. Yea there were a few busts, but a lot of them got injured and sadly another died.

Yea i know everyone wanted olesz but honestly if you look at what he has become, he still wouldnt have solved anything for us. He would have been yet another 3rd/4th liner on this team.

In the end I will agree that we have been below average at the draft table, but it hasnt been as horrible as you make it out to be.

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12-06-2008, 11:02 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
Um hindsight? Isn't that what we do here at HF? We get into the drafts and then come back and evaluate them a few years later, esp a Ranger prospct on a Ranger board almost 4 years after being drafted? Oh the humanity!! My original post was this rebuild has not been as good as we had hoped it would be forcing the franchise to yet again overpay players to come here and be our core. Like I said in the past post, maybe I just expected too much with all those draft picks and young players we traded for.
And like I said before; This organization has never gone into a rebuild. Even when we were playing awful hockey and missing the playoffs on a regular basis, we were still huge players in the trade and FA markets. Rebuilding teams trade for youth and draft picks, they don't trade away picks for super-stars or hand out massive contracts to anyone and everyone. There's a difference between rebuilding and just not having your **** together.

The fact is you're still missing my point. Montoya could now be considered a poor selection, but back then he was not a bad pick. You said you'd never draft a goalie with a high pick, yet many other teams have done it and had great success. Outside of the top 5 in that years first round, most players have been completely lack-luster and that includes Olesz.

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12-06-2008, 11:20 PM
  #66
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The only game this season in which Henrik didn't have to play like Superman for us to get a win was this week's game against Pittsburgh. That was the best TEAM defensive performance of the season for us.

If your goalie has to play like a God, night in and night out, just to eke out a couple of shootout wins, I do not consider that to be a team that plays "great defense." We are a weak offensive team, a decent defensive team at best and we have one of the top three goaltenders in the world.
I couldn't agree more. We are a decent defensive club at best. Henrik, night in and night out has to steal the show and make the team look better than they are.

I watch a lot of hockey and rarely do I see a team give up a breakaway on a nightly basis... Sometimes you'll see two or three against Henrik. Henrik makes this so so defense look better than it actually is. And this just isn't about our defense man. Staal is good, Mara is solid, Girardi is consistently good... But I really don't want Redden or Roszival on this team. I'd much prefer getting rid of them and putting Del Zotto on the club who played much better than both during the preseason.

But whats the personality... The old Devils with less scoring depth and a great goalie. Lets face it, the old Devils team won Cups, they scored goals, played good defense and had a great goalie.

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12-07-2008, 12:14 AM
  #67
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I couldn't agree more. We are a decent defensive club at best. Henrik, night in and night out has to steal the show and make the team look better than they are.

I watch a lot of hockey and rarely do I see a team give up a breakaway on a nightly basis... Sometimes you'll see two or three against Henrik. Henrik makes this so so defense look better than it actually is. And this just isn't about our defense man. Staal is good, Mara is solid, Girardi is consistently good... But I really don't want Redden or Roszival on this team. I'd much prefer getting rid of them and putting Del Zotto on the club who played much better than both during the preseason.

But whats the personality... The old Devils with less scoring depth and a great goalie. Lets face it, the old Devils team won Cups, they scored goals, played good defense and had a great goalie.
Yeah, the comparison to the Devils doesn't work, because the Cup-winning Devils had Patrik Elias. We don't have a scorer like that. Also, our offensive defenseman are Wade Redden and Michal Rozsival. The Devils had Scott Neidermayer and Brian Rafalski.

Not much of a comparison.

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12-07-2008, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yeah, the comparison to the Devils doesn't work, because the Cup-winning Devils had Patrik Elias. We don't have a scorer like that. Also, our offensive defenseman are Wade Redden and Michal Rozsival. The Devils had Scott Neidermayer and Brian Rafalski.

Not much of a comparison.
That's probably why he said, "the old Devils... with less scoring depth."

A couple of weeks back someone posted the stats for those Cup winning Devils teams and I was really surprised to see that they had a pretty damn good offense those years.

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12-07-2008, 01:51 AM
  #69
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That's probably why he said, "the old Devils... with less scoring depth."

A couple of weeks back someone posted the stats for those Cup winning Devils teams and I was really surprised to see that they had a pretty damn good offense those years.
I was agreeing with him.

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12-07-2008, 08:49 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Correct, and there is the problem. That's why we're in this mess. We never finished any rebuild.
What mess exactly? First place?

Oh right, we are GOING TO suck soon, right?

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12-07-2008, 11:30 AM
  #71
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What mess exactly? First place?

Oh right, we are GOING TO suck soon, right?
Going to? They look pretty bad to me, and the have most of the season. Every team's luck runs out eventually. You can only make so many come from behind victories and get so many wins in the shootout. Right now, we're a team being carried by Lundqvist.

Are you actually suggesting that we're the best team in the conference? We're in first place thanks to this little thing called games in hand. Right now the Devils are in seventh and have played 5 games less than we have. They're only eight points away.

Let's see what place the Rangers in a month from now when a lot of teams will have caught up to them in the schedule. I'm willing to bet it won't be first or second.

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12-07-2008, 11:45 AM
  #72
bubba5
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They are not making the playoffs, unless the King steals games like he has been doing!!!Teams will be playing very aggresive against this bunch now, as they show way to many weaknesses. If not for the King, this team would have a record like the Islanders. Even with the King, if there were no shootouts and we had ties like in the old days, their record would be 11-9-10, not the greatest.

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12-07-2008, 04:59 PM
  #73
Fataldogg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sting36e View Post
Yeah, the comparison to the Devils doesn't work, because the Cup-winning Devils had Patrik Elias. We don't have a scorer like that. Also, our offensive defenseman are Wade Redden and Michal Rozsival. The Devils had Scott Neidermayer and Brian Rafalski.

Not much of a comparison.
Well, I did say with less scoring depth. The Rangers have a far less talented version of the Devils 'dynasty' at the time.

And I can agree with the other poster about being a little disappointed after seven years of hockey to get what we have today.

Lundqvist was a complete shock, no one expected this.

Brendl, Maholtra, Montoya, and I don't even need to mention the ultimate bust of all. Than depth players like Dawes, Prucha [still talented but not producing as much], Korpikoski [still shows promise] are all players who don't have a solid roster spot.

Look at the Penguins drafting Jordan Staal, Sidney Crosby, Marc-Andre Fleury, Evgeni Malkin, Ryan Whitney, etc; That's one heck of a rebuilding process. After 7-years without one playoff run you would have at least expected to pick up one super star today such as Malkin, Kovalchuk, E. Staal, etc; type player.

Thats not to say we didn't pick up solid players. Dubinsky still shows a ton of promise, Marc Staal could develop into one of the best defense man in the game and he is one of the best defensive d-man in the conference in my opinion. The kid plays great D. Lundqvist was a franchise player. So we did get some good picks in there but we didn't land that one forward like other teams got.

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12-07-2008, 05:12 PM
  #74
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I think what this season proves is that Gomez and Drury are causing more chemistry problems than Jagr ever did. Jagr was eventually able to get it clicking with Dubi. Gomez and Drury still don't have solid chemistry with any of their wingers.

And this season also proves how underestimated Nylander was, especially his skills on the PP.

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Old
12-10-2008, 09:51 PM
  #75
I Am Chariot
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Larry Brooks between periods tonight said it all. This team is Vanilla.

All the personality guys are gone.

Jagr gone

Shanny gone

Avery gone

Strudwick even imo... gone


Its all Vanilla

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