HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Pacific Division > Vancouver Canucks
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Canucks trade with Blackhawks (minor)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-09-2008, 03:50 PM
  #26
Jesus Quintana*
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
my timeline recall is always a little fuzzy. could either of you guys remind me how we did in the season that will forever be known as "the great Schultz debacle"?
As I recall, they struggled all year to score goals, and ultimately it led their demise in the playoffs when despite an all world performance by Roberto Luongo and outstanding defensive play, they lost in 5 games to the Ducks in round 2.

Bottom line is that the team could not score (were they the lowest scoring team in the NHL that year?) and part of the reason why is that Nonis had counted on guys like Schultz to produce, when he should have gone in another direction.

Nonis failed.

Jesus Quintana* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 03:52 PM
  #27
hlrsr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Outside99 View Post
That's not what they are saying. They're saying Nonis and AV were putting all their eggs in Schultz's basket. In hindsight, you have to ask "what were they thinking?". Sure, there was a chance that Schultz would score 40 in the NHL - like 1 out of 10 (guesstimate: i'm sure somebody can figure out how many players in the AHL with say 32 goals or more scored 40 in the NHL the following year or 2 or 3? I might be high with 10%). The cupboards had to be totally bare for Nonis and AV to come up with that one. Desperate people do desperate things.
Except "putting all their eggs in the Schultz basket" and "banking on Schultz to be a top line player" is complete ********. Yeah, they thought maybe he had a chance, put some confidence in the kid, and gave him a shot at training camp. He wasn't good enough and he was sent down, it wasn't really a big deal.

It wasn't just Schultz either, maybe they talked about him the most, but I do believe Jason King and Josef Balej were at camp trying to compete for a spot as well.

Our top6 to begin that season was as follows -

Sedin-Sedin-Naslund
Bulis-Morrison-Pyatt

Now that ended up getting shuffled around a bit, but Pyatt did end up scoring 23 goals, and many did understand why we'd take a chance on Bulis being a top6 player as there was reason to believe he could be. How did "banking on Schultz" screw us over? Do these people know that Nonis was turning down deals and UFA signings (of which he had no cap space for) for top6 forwards because he was certain Jesse Schultz was going to be a 40-goal top-line player?

Of course not, it's just more conjecture-based Nonis bashing.

hlrsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:01 PM
  #28
alternate
Registered User
 
alternate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengay View Post
As I recall, they struggled all year to score goals, and ultimately it led their demise in the playoffs when despite an all world performance by Roberto Luongo and outstanding defensive play, they lost in 5 games to the Ducks in round 2.

Bottom line is that the team could not score (were they the lowest scoring team in the NHL that year?) and part of the reason why is that Nonis had counted on guys like Schultz to produce, when he should have gone in another direction.

Nonis failed.
no, we weren't even the lowest scoring team in our division that year (Edmonton was).

hlrsr said the rest.

alternate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:01 PM
  #29
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Sedin-Sedin-Naslund
Bulis-Morrison-Pyatt

Now that ended up getting shuffled around a bit, but Pyatt did end up scoring 23 goals, and many did understand why we'd take a chance on Bulis being a top6 player as there was reason to believe he could be.
Thing is, Bulis was only a 3rd liner before so I'd question whether there was any reason he would be a top 6 player from just having increased playing time. Sure he got 20 goals in the 2005/06 - but something like 4 of those goals came from one game. He was as big a question mark as Pyatt that year with respect to being a top six forward (though at least he was more proven as a solid 3rd liner than Pyatt at the time).

Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
no, we weren't even the lowest scoring team in our division that year (Edmonton was).
Unless I'm mistaken - the Oilers had a ton of injuries on the blueline that season. Not having an AHL affliate that year didn't help matters. Same impact on the offense as when the Canucks suffered a bunch of injuries to the blueline last season.

Barney Gumble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:10 PM
  #30
Jaffray15
Registered User
 
Jaffray15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 383
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Jaffray15 Send a message via MSN to Jaffray15
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but Jesse Schultz helped Chicago win the Calder Cup last season.

So, in the end Id say Atlanta made the better deal when they got Schultz because it helped their minor league team win a Cup.

Jaffray15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:11 PM
  #31
hlrsr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Thing is, Bulis was only a 3rd liner before so I'd question whether there was any reason he would be a top 6 player from just having increased playing time. Sure he got 20 goals in the 2005/06 - but something like 4 of those goals came from one game. He was as big a question mark as Pyatt that year with respect to being a top six forward (though at least he was more proven as a solid 3rd liner than Pyatt at the time).
No doubt Bulis was a risk, but this was a team with limited cap space and very little tradeable assets. Throwing $1.3M on a guy who could looked like he could potentially break out as a top6 forward (20G-20A as a 3rd liner) and still played a good 2-way game made sense for this team.

Either way, the team was in a significant transition from the WCE era. All the right players aren't necessarily going to be available for us immediately. To say Nonis should have addressed the goaltending (as he did), the defense (as he did), AND build a potent offense is saying he should have built a contender in one offseason from the mess that was the WCE team. I think those expectations are a little high.

Quote:
Unless I'm mistaken - the Oilers had a ton of injuries on the blueline that season. Not having an AHL affliate that year didn't help matters. Same impact on the offense as when the Canucks suffered a bunch of injuries to the blueline last season.
Are you trying to say their offense wasn't as bad as it was made out to be?

hlrsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:12 PM
  #32
Jesus Quintana*
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Except "putting all their eggs in the Schultz basket" and "banking on Schultz to be a top line player" is complete ********. Yeah, they thought maybe he had a chance, put some confidence in the kid, and gave him a shot at training camp. He wasn't good enough and he was sent down, it wasn't really a big deal.

It wasn't just Schultz either, maybe they talked about him the most, but I do believe Jason King and Josef Balej were at camp trying to compete for a spot as well.

Our top6 to begin that season was as follows -

Sedin-Sedin-Naslund
Bulis-Morrison-Pyatt

Now that ended up getting shuffled around a bit, but Pyatt did end up scoring 23 goals, and many did understand why we'd take a chance on Bulis being a top6 player as there was reason to believe he could be. How did "banking on Schultz" screw us over? Do these people know that Nonis was turning down deals and UFA signings (of which he had no cap space for) for top6 forwards because he was certain Jesse Schultz was going to be a 40-goal top-line player?

Of course not, it's just more conjecture-based Nonis bashing.
It's the job of the gm to go out and get the players needed. I don't buy this "well, he could not do anything - there was no one available." He knew that scoring was going to be an issue - and he banked on guys like Schultz to provide it. This was his failure - that's all I am saying.

I like Nonis - he seems like a good guy, I do not intend for any of this to be a personal slight on his character...but I don't get all these people willing to lay their lives down to defend his honour. The team was really going nowhere when he was here - it actually regressed, not progressed...........

Jesus Quintana* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:15 PM
  #33
Jesus Quintana*
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,270
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by alternate View Post
no, we weren't even the lowest scoring team in our division that year (Edmonton was).

hlrsr said the rest.

Correct - they were 23rd overall in goals for.

Jesus Quintana* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:16 PM
  #34
orcatown
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 7,711
vCash: 500
Schultz never had NHL speed and that was obvious even in the good days in Kelowna

The pursuit of Schultz and McLeod after the big Memorial Cup run was ridiculous given their very limited skating ability

Schultz should never have been consideration as a top six forward. Relying on him to come in and fill that roll was brain dead

orcatown is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:16 PM
  #35
hlrsr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengay View Post
It's the job of the gm to go out and get the players needed. I don't buy this "well, he could not do anything - there was no one available." He knew that scoring was going to be an issue - and he banked on guys like Schultz to provide it. This was his failure - that's all I am saying.
And that opinion of yours implies -

a) Any player your team needs is always available at a reasonable cost

and/or

b) Nonis was turning down deals and UFA signings for more proven top6 forwards because he was so high on Jesse Schultz

that's all I'm saying.

hlrsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:17 PM
  #36
Outside99*
Sedins off Kas
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,347
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Except "putting all their eggs in the Schultz basket" and "banking on Schultz to be a top line player" is complete ********. Yeah, they thought maybe he had a chance, put some confidence in the kid, and gave him a shot at training camp. He wasn't good enough and he was sent down, it wasn't really a big deal.

It wasn't just Schultz either, maybe they talked about him the most, but I do believe Jason King and Josef Balej were at camp trying to compete for a spot as well.

Our top6 to begin that season was as follows -

Sedin-Sedin-Naslund
Bulis-Morrison-Pyatt

Now that ended up getting shuffled around a bit, but Pyatt did end up scoring 23 goals, and many did understand why we'd take a chance on Bulis being a top6 player as there was reason to believe he could be. How did "banking on Schultz" screw us over? Do these people know that Nonis was turning down deals and UFA signings (of which he had no cap space for) for top6 forwards because he was certain Jesse Schultz was going to be a 40-goal top-line player?

Of course not, it's just more conjecture-based Nonis bashing.
I'm not bashing Nonis at all (i think he's a good guy who wasn't aggressive enough), what I'm saying is if they said that, they had to be pretty desperate. And when you compare the competition at this year's camp, you'd have to say they were desperate.

And fyi, here is from hockey's future September 12, 2006
"The prospect with the most pressure on him heading into camp to make the team is minor-league success story Jesse Schultz. The undrafted winger lit the lamp 37 times last season with the Manitoba Moose and has been pencilled into many mock line-ups as Anson Carterís replacement alongside Henrik and Daniel Sedin. The sniper has a knack for being in the right place at the right time and has a good release to his shot, attributes that do make him right alongside the twins."

Outside99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:29 PM
  #37
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Are you trying to say their offense wasn't as bad as it was made out to be?
Unless you have a team made up of forwards who all can go "end to end" you need defensemen able to make a proper break out pass or carry the puck.

Barney Gumble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:33 PM
  #38
Heske_44
Registered User
 
Heske_44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,361
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by jumptheshark View Post
I guess Gillis get credit for the Luongo deal as well next?

Def not. Keenan always will get full props for that one.

Heske_44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:35 PM
  #39
canucksfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 25,336
vCash: 500
I didn't see this one coming.

canucksfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:39 PM
  #40
Passthedonuts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Oakville, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 546
vCash: 500
It's smart to give all your prospects a shot.

You sometimes need to run through 4 or 5 Schultz's, King's and Balej's to find an Alex Burrows or a Kris Versteeg.

Passthedonuts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:41 PM
  #41
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passthedonuts View Post
It's smart to give all your prospects a shot.

You sometimes need to run through 4 or 5 Schultz's, King's and Balej's to find an Alex Burrows or a Kris Versteeg.
Nah, you need a good GM with your AHL affiliate to find yourself a Schultz or Burrows in the first place.

Barney Gumble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:46 PM
  #42
hlrsr
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,389
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Unless you have a team made up of forwards who all can go "end to end" you need defensemen able to make a proper break out pass or carry the puck.
Heh, yeah I know exactly what you mean. That's the same argument I use for the Canucks offense in 07/08 seeming as awful as it did. I was just hinting at that.

hlrsr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 04:48 PM
  #43
Outside99*
Sedins off Kas
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,347
vCash: 500
Schultz's breakout year was 2005-06 when AV was coach of the Moose so he was probably the one saying Schultz was great as this would be consistent with his tendency to favour Rypien and Brown. Other Moose then were Bieksa Burrows Jaffray. AV is loyal to his players.

Outside99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 05:03 PM
  #44
y2kcanucks
Cult of Personality
 
y2kcanucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Surrey, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 47,181
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to y2kcanucks
Can we not turn this into another Nonis debate? There's plenty of other threads for that. Someone said their piece and how it relates to this trade, leave it at that.

__________________
http://www.vancitynitetours.com
y2kcanucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 05:05 PM
  #45
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Heh, yeah I know exactly what you mean. That's the same argument I use for the Canucks offense in 07/08 seeming as awful as it did. I was just hinting at that.
Heh-heh. I understand and agree with that.

Barney Gumble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 07:55 PM
  #46
Jyrki21
Trade request DENIED
 
Jyrki21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Ottawa, ON
Country: Lesotho
Posts: 4,533
vCash: 500
Trying out a guy like Schultz to see if he clicks -- and therefore would be a cheap yet effective option -- isn't just perfectly defensible, but also an astute business decision. The push here is always to go out and get a "proven scorer." Uh, how do scorers get proven if they're not given a chance at some point?

Detroit develops most of its talent this way -- guys you'd never heard of, but who get primed perfectly for a specific role and suddenly turn out really good. Getting water from a stone (or at least what people thought was a stone) is what great GMs try to do and is always worth trying (and not judging after two games). It's what Billy Beane's philosophy is all about. Just because you hadn't read Moneyball yet doesn't mean it was a bad attempt (I actually had just read it at the time and was very into it).

Jyrki21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 10:15 PM
  #47
timw33
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Victoria
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,938
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pauser View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we also throw a 4th or 5th rounder in the deal to acquire Sharrow in the first place?
No, it was a one for one with Schultz.



Getting an extra late round pick in the 09' draft is excellent, more picks=awesome.

Give Gradin a pick to take some obscure player.

timw33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 11:34 PM
  #48
Johnny LaRue
Registered User
 
Johnny LaRue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Kudamatsu-shi, Japan
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,606
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kid_Roll View Post
AV was on board the Schultz promotion train as well. That was truly a low point for this organization.


"I think he could be a 40 goal scorer."


Barf.
Not nearly as low as "Kevin Weekes is the future of the Vancouver Canucks", or "Trevor Letwoski is a great addition to this team".

Johnny LaRue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 11:37 PM
  #49
Barney Gumble
Registered User
 
Barney Gumble's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,378
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny_LaRue View Post
Not nearly as low as "Kevin Weekes is the future of the Vancouver Canucks", or "Trevor Letwoski is a great addition to this team".
"...all it takes is one quarter to move this franchise. One phone call" (OK, this is probably a bad bit of paraphrasing - but one gets the general idea).

"Vancouver is a goalies graveyard" (nevermind I [Burke] was the smuck to traded for these crap goalies in the first place)

heh-heh...whatever you feel about Burke - he leaves you entertained with one-liners.

Barney Gumble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-09-2008, 11:38 PM
  #50
Outside99*
Sedins off Kas
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,347
vCash: 500
Listening to Mclean talking about the fiasco in Tampa (I think he was waving his resume) on Sportsnet, we should be grateful for our coach and GMs, past & present

Outside99* is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:22 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.