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OT: Marty St. Louis anyone?

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Old
12-09-2008, 04:08 PM
  #26
Darz
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I wouldn't want to trade away the assets Tampa Bay would want in return for St. Louis. Let another team trade away too much for him.

As for Vinny...that contract ends his chances of playing in Montreal for at least 6-8 years, unless we fire Gainey and bring in an absolute idiot as our new GM.

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12-09-2008, 04:32 PM
  #27
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of course the bruins fan wants us to trade for another soft small forward

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12-09-2008, 04:43 PM
  #28
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If you're referring to me...

I'm a reporter that covers the Bruins and I'd like to see Marty on Sid's wing in Pittsburgh!

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12-09-2008, 05:37 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by hockeyscribe22 View Post
According to one source close to some Tampa players, things have gotten to the point where this team may just be completely revamped again and that mainstay forward Marty St. Louis may very well be open to waiving his no-trade clause if team management approached him on the subject.

“Marty and the guys that have been here are not happy anymore,” said the source.

“There’s going to be a lot of movement there and I wouldn’t be surprised if Marty agreed to be moved out of there or even approached them soon. It’s just a real bad atmosphere and not something the veterans there have been used to. He would give them a list of teams and yeah he could be moved before the season’s over.”

http://insidehockey.com/columns/2512
Montreal needs another under-sized forward like I need a hole in the head.

Let's look at players that address needs instead of acting like this is a hockey pool and jumping every time a "name player" becomes available.

It's that kind of thinking that got Owen Nolan, Brian Leetch and Ron Francis into Maple Leaf jersey's en route to early exits.

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Old
12-09-2008, 05:39 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
Really??..Things aren't looking that good in TB??..Who would have thought..I was sold on them going far after they signed Recchi and Roberts.
Recchi has 15 points for the Bolts and has easily been their most consistent forward in the games I've watched.

I'm not quite sure what's wrong with Vinnie and Marty, but they are just not really there on a consistent basis.

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Old
12-09-2008, 05:44 PM
  #31
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Small forward with skill and a hefty price tag? No thanks.

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12-09-2008, 08:27 PM
  #32
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You need some x factors in the playoffs. You need people to step up and I think a fresh start for st louis might be what this team needs for a long playoff run. I could care less of what he thus in the regular season. The playoffs are another story and I think he can provide some much needed punch.

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12-09-2008, 09:16 PM
  #33
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You need some x factors in the playoffs. You need people to step up and I think a fresh start for st louis might be what this team needs for a long playoff run. I could care less of what he thus in the regular season. The playoffs are another story and I think he can provide some much needed punch.
at 5'7 and 5 million vs teams like Philly and Boston

no thank you

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12-09-2008, 09:56 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Would being an extraordinary player make Lecavalier impervious to injury or decline? Lindros and Bure were extraordinary players. Yashin was no ordinary player when he signed his big contract. It's just not a safe bet to sign any player for that long, IMO, no matter who the player is.

As for Lang: assuming he stays healthy, do you think Vinnie will be able to reinvent himself as a defensive specialist the way Lang has, when he's no longer able to score like he once could? I see no indications that he will.
One thing that's important to consider is that his contract is very heavily front-loaded. He makes 2.5 mil during the last two years combined. 6.5 over the last 3 combined.

Depending how the cap goes long term, I can see small market teams (that want to hit the salary floor) being interested in getting a big cap hit that is also a small wallet hit.

So he could be pretty easy to dump (if needed) by the time he has 3 years left.

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12-10-2008, 04:14 AM
  #35
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I wouldn't spit on him but we seriously need size on our first two lines.

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12-10-2008, 07:29 AM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Pascal View Post
ya, to make way for Stamkos to light up the league.
He's a great young player, I would take him on the Habs any day.

He had a lot of pressure going to Tampa and Melrose did not use him at all. Now that the coaching has changed and he's playing, he is putting up some points. I mean what do you expect playing with guys like Malone and Recchi. He is actually a very good faceoff man too.

As for St. Louis, there are already too many wingers on this team. I would gladly take him if room was made as his style would really fit well with the Habs, but who is out of a Top 6 job? I assume D'Agostini, which would be dumb right now (but once he's cooled by the trade deadline perhaps it will be a different story).

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12-10-2008, 08:03 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by hockeyscribe22 View Post
According to one source close to some Tampa players, things have gotten to the point where this team may just be completely revamped again and that mainstay forward Marty St. Louis may very well be open to waiving his no-trade clause if team management approached him on the subject.

“Marty and the guys that have been here are not happy anymore,” said the source.

“There’s going to be a lot of movement there and I wouldn’t be surprised if Marty agreed to be moved out of there or even approached them soon. It’s just a real bad atmosphere and not something the veterans there have been used to. He would give them a list of teams and yeah he could be moved before the season’s over.”

http://insidehockey.com/columns/2512

NO THANKS!!! Our forwards are small enough as it is....we don't need another midget in the lineup.

Vinny or bust!!!!

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Old
12-10-2008, 08:28 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by mariolemieux66 View Post
St-Louis over Kovalev anytime!!!
I like St-Louis but not now days.

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Old
12-10-2008, 09:09 AM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Nobak View Post
One thing that's important to consider is that his contract is very heavily front-loaded. He makes 2.5 mil during the last two years combined. 6.5 over the last 3 combined.

Depending how the cap goes long term, I can see small market teams (that want to hit the salary floor) being interested in getting a big cap hit that is also a small wallet hit.

So he could be pretty easy to dump (if needed) by the time he has 3 years left.
Or even a buyback for that matter. His last three years are spread out as so :

4 mil $ - 1,5 mil $ - 1 mil$

You buy him back with 3 seasons remaining, and you can spread it on 6 seasons with a cap hit of 1,1 mil $ which is not that much. You buy him back with 2 seasons left on the contract and you have a cap hit of 625k for 4 seasons.

The only risk with Lecavalier is that he slows down before he hits 37, which is rare nowadays for a player of his talent. Even then, he'll make 8,5 mil on that season, not 10 mil.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darz
As for Vinny...that contract ends his chances of playing in Montreal for at least 6-8 years, unless we fire Gainey and bring in an absolute idiot as our new GM.
So Gainey is an absolute idiot, because its pretty close to what he wanted offer Bričre, no?

I think your statement is extremely exagerated. Gainey said the Habs wanted to add a superstar to the lineup, and you can't have a superstar without a superstar salary. The good thing with Vinny is that his cap hit is low compared to the max he could get (which he will get, but front loaded). If Gainey was ready to offer Bričre a cap hit of 7 mil, you really think he wouldn't want Vinny at 7,7 mil$??

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12-10-2008, 09:13 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by FerrisRox View Post
Recchi has 15 points for the Bolts and has easily been their most consistent forward in the games I've watched.

I'm not quite sure what's wrong with Vinnie and Marty, but they are just not really there on a consistent basis.
Vinny has his lingering injury to his shoulder. He said it before the season started that he wouldn't be 100%, as the doctors told him his healing process would take longer than anticipated.

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12-10-2008, 09:16 AM
  #41
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Asset Mangement

That last thing this team needs is another overpaid, fading asset. With the successive losses of Souray and Streit and the obvious diminishing skills of Kovalev, the team's needs are quite obvious and are not met in any way through the addition of St. Louis. Let's be honest, if his name was Simmonds or Smith, would anyone on this board even consider acquiring him? With the salary cap almost certainly going down in the 2010 season and having to sign key team components like Komiserek and Plekanec, why in heavens name would any prudent manager tie up precious and dwindling cap space for this very one-dimensional player?

That is all.

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Old
12-10-2008, 11:31 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Yes he is... it's a great contract for a great player...

But, I've had enough of the Lecavalier proposals... he turned his back to the habs when he signed that contract... it's time for the fans to turn their back to him.
Well, think of it from his perspective. He was in TB his entire career and many quebecers retire in Florida. I've heard often times half the audience at a TB game is from Quebec and I know many older people who vacation there, my grandparents, friends of theirs, etc who are all secondary fans of the lightning.

I honestly think if I were in his shoes I would give the organization that brought me up a chance and sign with them too. To me he was being loyal and loyal players are hard to find imo. Heck, loyal organizations even are

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Old
12-10-2008, 11:49 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by le_sean View Post
He's a great young player, I would take him on the Habs any day.
I would too, I was just joking.

It's just kind of funny to see the circus in Tampa unfolding..

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Old
12-10-2008, 12:26 PM
  #44
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Who are Vinny and Marty?

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Old
12-10-2008, 12:36 PM
  #45
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pass,
no thanks

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Old
12-10-2008, 12:50 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Rscorpio View Post
yeah , why not but at what cost?


Kovy?
I'm sorry, was that serious?

I would "sacrifice" Kovalev for a bowl of Fritos. I would take any scoring winger in the league over Kovalev, including Havlat and Gaborik. I could give a **** about his two assists last night. Score some goals, show some effort, or gtfo.

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Old
12-10-2008, 12:50 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Or even a buyback for that matter. His last three years are spread out as so :

4 mil $ - 1,5 mil $ - 1 mil$

You buy him back with 3 seasons remaining, and you can spread it on 6 seasons with a cap hit of 1,1 mil $ which is not that much. You buy him back with 2 seasons left on the contract and you have a cap hit of 625k for 4 seasons.

The only risk with Lecavalier is that he slows down before he hits 37, which is rare nowadays for a player of his talent. Even then, he'll make 8,5 mil on that season, not 10 mil.
Are you sure? I thought salary and cap hit were kept separate on buyouts, same as they are in general.

I kind of hope you're wrong about this, because that's a pretty easy way to cheat the cap. We're talking about turning 25.5 mil's worth of cap obligation into 6.5 (BEFORE the 33% reduction on buyouts).

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12-10-2008, 12:59 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Nobak View Post
Are you sure? I thought salary and cap hit were kept separate on buyouts, same as they are in general.

I kind of hope you're wrong about this, because that's a pretty easy way to cheat the cap. We're talking about turning 25.5 mil's worth of cap obligation into 6.5 (BEFORE the 33% reduction on buyouts).
Huh-huh. It is actually. because once you do a buyback, it counts the salary you are buying out, not the cap hit. Caphit for buyouts are what you pay for the player.

I'm pretty sure about this, but I'm gonna check it out in the CBA.

EDIT :

50.9 (i)(i)

""If a player's SPC (Standard Professional Contract - standard parts are the same for all players) has been terminated and bought out by a club pursuant to the Ordinary Course Buyout provisions set forth in the SPC (which SPC also eliminates the concept of the "lump sum" buyout), the money due and owing to the player pursuant to the buyout shall be paid out in accordance with the terms in the SPC (e.g., one-thrid or two-thirds of the remaining of the Player Salary due and owing, to be paid over twice the remaining years of the terminated and bought out contract), and the amounts paid under such buyout agreement shall be included in the Actual Club Salary (true salaries, counted for player compensation) and Averaged Club Salary (as set forth in this article 50 * which is the average player's salary) of the club that bought out the player during any league year in which the buyout is paid...""

So as you can see, the amount for the Actual Player Salary and Average Club Salary is the same, based on the amount of the buyout.


Last edited by Ozymandias: 12-10-2008 at 01:31 PM.
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Old
12-10-2008, 01:30 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by hockeyscribe22 View Post
According to one source close to some Tampa players, things have gotten to the point where this team may just be completely revamped again and that mainstay forward Marty St. Louis may very well be open to waiving his no-trade clause if team management approached him on the subject.

“Marty and the guys that have been here are not happy anymore,” said the source.

“There’s going to be a lot of movement there and I wouldn’t be surprised if Marty agreed to be moved out of there or even approached them soon. It’s just a real bad atmosphere and not something the veterans there have been used to. He would give them a list of teams and yeah he could be moved before the season’s over.”

http://insidehockey.com/columns/2512
HELLS YES, in a heartbeat, the guy steps up in the playoffs and that's really the key to winning. No question I'd move assets for St. Louis. He's better than 90% of our team.

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Old
12-10-2008, 02:14 PM
  #50
Nobak
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
Huh-huh. It is actually. because once you do a buyback, it counts the salary you are buying out, not the cap hit. Caphit for buyouts are what you pay for the player.

I'm pretty sure about this, but I'm gonna check it out in the CBA.

EDIT :

50.9 (i)(i)

""If a player's SPC (Standard Professional Contract - standard parts are the same for all players) has been terminated and bought out by a club pursuant to the Ordinary Course Buyout provisions set forth in the SPC (which SPC also eliminates the concept of the "lump sum" buyout), the money due and owing to the player pursuant to the buyout shall be paid out in accordance with the terms in the SPC (e.g., one-thrid or two-thirds of the remaining of the Player Salary due and owing, to be paid over twice the remaining years of the terminated and bought out contract), and the amounts paid under such buyout agreement shall be included in the Actual Club Salary (true salaries, counted for player compensation) and Averaged Club Salary (as set forth in this article 50 * which is the average player's salary) of the club that bought out the player during any league year in which the buyout is paid...""

So as you can see, the amount for the Actual Player Salary and Average Club Salary is the same, based on the amount of the buyout.
This info conflicted with what nhlscap.com said in its CBA FAQ so I dug deeper.

Take a look at 50.5(d)(iii), specifically A:
Quote:
A) For a League Year during the term of the original SPC that
was bought out, the included amount is the original
Averaged Amount of the SPC for that League Year,
reduced by the amount of the buyout "savings" for that
League Year (with "buyout savings" defined as the actual
amount of Player Salary and Bonuses that was to be paid
under the SPC for such League Year minus the amount of
Player Salary that is to be paid under the buyout
agreement). If the amount of buyout "savings" in a League206
Year is more than the original Averaged Amount for such
League Year, then the amount of such excess is included in
the Averaged Club Salary for such League Year as a
"credit."
B says the years beyond the original contract are straightforward, they're equal to the yearly amount paid by the team for the buyout.

There are a few examples directly on the CBA after B. One of them even shows you could potentially get a negative cap hit from a buyout for a given year. That gets treated as a cap credit.

Based on all this, it seems like all buyouts are not equal. Buying out an evenly spread out contract effectively means getting 2/3 of the cap hit over double the amount of years. But buying out a front-loaded contract seems to lead to a bigger cap hit than 2/3 of the remaining cap hit and buying out a back-loaded contract seems to lead to a smaller cap hit than 2/3 of the remaining cap hit.

If I have gotten all of this right and the OpenOffice calculator I just whipped up is error-free, buying out Lecavalier with 3 years remaining would lead to cap hits of 4.45, 6.95, 7.45, .72, .72, .72 mil, respectively, over the following 6 years.

That's a total of 21.02, where I'd have expected 15.45.


Last edited by Nobak: 12-10-2008 at 02:22 PM.
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