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End the Sather Era

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Old
12-10-2008, 05:07 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by SingnBluesOnBroadway View Post
Lots of doubt. What has Mess done to show that he's ready for an NHL GM job?
Nothing at all. I'm not saying I WANT Mess as the GM, I just assume it's inevitable. With the talk about it the past couple off seasons, it just seems like it's pretty much bound to happen. I hope I'm completely wrong though.

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12-11-2008, 10:13 PM
  #27
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Why is Sather here for life?
Sather didn't make the Rangers a good team.
In my view he got lucky.
He got a good goalie and a salary cap to limit has awful signings.
Without both of these the Rangers are the current Leafs, or worse.

Fact is, besides Marc Staal, what player from the farm system has Sather drafted and developed who has been a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman?

All he has contributed are Ryan Callhan's and Brandon Dubinsky's, 3rd/4th line hustlers, with limited offensive skill.
He's had near a long time to redo things...Lundqvist has made the fool look better.

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12-11-2008, 10:33 PM
  #28
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I fail to see the relationship between the Rangers and the Boston Red Sox. Or the Yankees. Or the Knicks.

Or how those teams, which have nothing to do with hockey, the NHL, the Rangers, or Sather...relate to this.

One can question the free agent signings. However, you can not argue against the fact that they were signed at market value (at the time they were signed) and you can not fault someone for not foreseeing a global economic issue.

Sather has seen to it that the Rangers have a healthy farm system, quality young players stepping up and taking big roles, and putting the organization in a good place for the foreseeable future.

If Redden, Rozsival, Gomez, or Drury's contracts become an issue for the club, he can always find a way of ridding the organization of their contracts.

What i think, is that people need to stop complaining and stop throwing EVERY SINGLE PERSON involved in the organization under the bus. Stanley Cups are not won in December. Fruits of the rebuild take longer then a couple of years to make an impact. Half of the players drafted since the end of the lockout have yet to reach the NHL. PATIENCE has its virtues.

Do i agree with everything they do? No. But they have not done anything catastrophic since the end of the lockout.

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12-11-2008, 10:38 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JStaal11 View Post
Why is Sather here for life?
Sather didn't make the Rangers a good team.
In my view he got lucky.
He got a good goalie and a salary cap to limit has awful signings.
Without both of these the Rangers are the current Leafs, or worse.

Fact is, besides Marc Staal, what player from the farm system has Sather drafted and developed who has been a top 6 forward or top 4 defenseman?

All he has contributed are Ryan Callhan's and Brandon Dubinsky's, 3rd/4th line hustlers, with limited offensive skill.
He's had near a long time to redo things...Lundqvist has made the fool look better.
You're blind, and uninformed if that's what you think.

Girardi, signed as an undrafted free agent.
Cherepanov, died. Not Sather's fault.
Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Grachev, Anisimov are all developing EXACTLY as planned.

Prucha scored 30 in his rookie season. His drop off has NOTHING to do with Sather.

Dawes still has a chance to be a solid NHL player.

Zherdev trade.
Jagr trade.

The list of GOOD moves goes on and on. The real issue is that people only focus and scrutinize the bad.

Got news for you. NO GM makes 100% great moves. They make bad decisions 50% of the time.

What ever issues the current NHL roster has, can be somewhat fixed by the trade deadline.

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12-11-2008, 10:42 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
You're blind, and uninformed if that's what you think.

Girardi, signed as an undrafted free agent.
Cherepanov, died. Not Sather's fault.
Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Grachev, Anisimov are all developing EXACTLY as planned.

Prucha scored 30 in his rookie season. His drop off has NOTHING to do with Sather.

Dawes still has a chance to be a solid NHL player.

Zherdev trade.
Jagr trade.

The list of GOOD moves goes on and on. The real issue is that people only focus and scrutinize the bad.

Got news for you. NO GM makes 100% great moves. They make bad decisions 50% of the time.
Girardi is a number 5.
Zherdev trade...I'll give him props.

Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Grachev, Anisimov....are they really impact (top 6 forward, top 4 defense) prospects?
Let's be objective.

Prucha..one year wonder.

He has been here for many years and has NOT improved the farm system.
It is not a stacked unit with many impact players...it is a bunch of 3rd liners.

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12-11-2008, 10:48 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JStaal11 View Post
Girardi is a number 5.
Zherdev trade...I'll give him props.

Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Grachev, Anisimov....are they really impact (top 6 forward, top 4 defense) prospects?
Let's be objective.

Prucha..one year wonder.

He has been here for many years and has NOT improved the farm system.
It is not a stacked unit with many impact players...it is a bunch of 3rd liners.
Hasn't improved the farm system? Really, he has.

Again, Prucha being a "one year wonder" as you put it, is Sather's fault how?

And yes, Grachev, Anisimov, Del Zotto, Sanguinetti all project to be either top 6 forwards or top 4 defensemen. If you disagree, you are the only one.

Girardi was SIGNED by Sather. You want to take credit away?

I'm sorry, but you're reaching on this. Sather has ABSOLUTELY VASTLY improved the farm system. And several of the players drafted under his tenure are currently playing for the NHL club.


The problem is that people want INSTANT gratification.

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12-11-2008, 11:02 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
You're blind, and uninformed if that's what you think.

Girardi, signed as an undrafted free agent.
Cherepanov, died. Not Sather's fault.
Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, Grachev, Anisimov are all developing EXACTLY as planned.

Prucha scored 30 in his rookie season. His drop off has NOTHING to do with Sather.

Dawes still has a chance to be a solid NHL player.

Zherdev trade.
Jagr trade.

The list of GOOD moves goes on and on. The real issue is that people only focus and scrutinize the bad.

Got news for you. NO GM makes 100% great moves. They make bad decisions 50% of the time.

What ever issues the current NHL roster has, can be somewhat fixed by the trade deadline.
The list of good things goes on and on and on? Oh brother, ok lets go into this.

Girardi-Good signing for sure

Cherapanov- No one knows how he would have turned out.

Sangs, DZ, Grachev, and Anisimov are developing nicely? Great I heard the same thing about Brendl, Lundmark, Dube, Malhotra, Sundstrom, Jessiman, Montoya, and all the other can't miss Ranger gems in the past years. Till they make the NHL and have an impact they are what they are, prospects and not elite ones at that.

Did you really just mention Prucha and Dawes? These guys are in limbo. They aren't producing in the NHL, they have to go through waivers to be sent down, and their play has lowered thier trade value by a large margin.

Zherdev trade was good but it wasn't like we really hosed CLB, we gave up a good young dman in Tyutin really to make up for his bone head selection of Jessiman.

Jagr trade he was 2 years late on cause he was out golfing before he felt like being a lion and trading our best prospect at the time (Brendl), one of our better dmen (Johnsson), and a winger who performed well here (Hlavac) for Eric Lindros who had a history of injuries. This mind you after he traded our picks for no leg Bure a year or two back. Is this still some of the great moves that go on and on?

I'm not even going to go into how many coaches he has gone through or the walkie talkie thing or the Leetch trade or the other horrible trades he made at that deadline or letting Umberger walk or terrible signings. Any other GM not names Glen Sather is history 4 years ago, he has a job because of his name, well that and our owner is an idiot as well.

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Old
12-11-2008, 11:04 PM
  #33
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Sather is going nowhere. There is ZERO pressure for him to leave. He is in a very advantageous position. He might have the best GM job in all of pro sports. Hes a very clever gentleman.

People need to take into account. There is PRE lockout Sather and POST lockout Sather. Very different rules, very different philosophy.

Post lockout Glen Sather has been very good to NY.

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12-11-2008, 11:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The list of good things goes on and on and on? Oh brother, ok lets go into this.

Girardi-Good signing for sure

Cherapanov- No one knows how he would have turned out.

Sangs, DZ, Grachev, and Anisimov are developing nicely? Great I heard the same thing about Brendl, Lundmark, Dube, Malhotra, Sundstrom, Jessiman, Montoya, and all the other can't miss Ranger gems in the past years. Till they make the NHL and have an impact they are what they are, prospects and not elite ones at that.

Did you really just mention Prucha and Dawes? These guys are in limbo. They aren't producing in the NHL, they have to go through waivers to be sent down, and their play has lowered thier trade value by a large margin.

Zherdev trade was good but it wasn't like we really hosed CLB, we gave up a good young dman in Tyutin really to make up for his bone head selection of Jessiman.

Jagr trade he was 2 years late on cause he was out golfing before he felt like being a lion and trading our best prospect at the time (Brendl), one of our better dmen (Johnsson), and a winger who performed well here (Hlavac) for Eric Lindros who had a history of injuries. This mind you after he traded our picks for no leg Bure a year or two back. Is this still some of the great moves that go on and on?

I'm not even going to go into how many coaches he has gone through or the walkie talkie thing or the Leetch trade or the other horrible trades he made at that deadline or letting Umberger walk or terrible signings. Any other GM not names Glen Sather is history 4 years ago, he has a job because of his name, well that and our owner is an idiot as well.
Agreed 100%.
He has been here for a long time...and all we keep hearing is more hype on 3rd line scrubs.

Quote:
People need to take into account. There is PRE lockout Sather and POST lockout Sather. Very different rules, very different philosophy.

Post lockout Glen Sather has been very good to NY.
Drury/Rozsival/Redden/Cullen...Gomez?
Good signings?

More like post lockout Henrik has covered up Sather's foolishnish.
Minus Henrik the Rangers would be the post lockout Leafs.

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12-11-2008, 11:44 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Radek27 View Post
The list of good things goes on and on and on? Oh brother, ok lets go into this.

Girardi-Good signing for sure

Cherapanov- No one knows how he would have turned out.

Sangs, DZ, Grachev, and Anisimov are developing nicely? Great I heard the same thing about Brendl, Lundmark, Dube, Malhotra, Sundstrom, Jessiman, Montoya, and all the other can't miss Ranger gems in the past years. Till they make the NHL and have an impact they are what they are, prospects and not elite ones at that.

Did you really just mention Prucha and Dawes? These guys are in limbo. They aren't producing in the NHL, they have to go through waivers to be sent down, and their play has lowered thier trade value by a large margin.

Zherdev trade was good but it wasn't like we really hosed CLB, we gave up a good young dman in Tyutin really to make up for his bone head selection of Jessiman.

Jagr trade he was 2 years late on cause he was out golfing before he felt like being a lion and trading our best prospect at the time (Brendl), one of our better dmen (Johnsson), and a winger who performed well here (Hlavac) for Eric Lindros who had a history of injuries. This mind you after he traded our picks for no leg Bure a year or two back. Is this still some of the great moves that go on and on?

I'm not even going to go into how many coaches he has gone through or the walkie talkie thing or the Leetch trade or the other horrible trades he made at that deadline or letting Umberger walk or terrible signings. Any other GM not names Glen Sather is history 4 years ago, he has a job because of his name, well that and our owner is an idiot as well.
First off, i believe the discussion was about post lockout.

Second, yes, i mentioned Dawes and Prucha. Both have performed in the NHL at one point. How they are handled by their coach does not have anything to do with Sather. Sather's team drafted them. They played in the NHL and made an impact.

You can make a list of EVERY GM in the NHL's short comings. You think there is anyone in the NHL that hasn't made numerous bad decisions? EVERY single GM has made them. And MAJORITY of EVERY draft pick by EVERY GM busts. You do NOT rate their success by the ones who bust. You rate their success by the ones who don't.

Dubinsky
Staal
Lundqvist
Callahan
Korpikoski
Dawes
Prucha
Girardi
Blackburn
Tyutin

Are all players that came up through the Rangers organization and are currently on the NHL squad, or were, that were either signed or drafted under Sather.

Sanguinetti, Del Zotto, and Anisimov are locks to make the NHL.

Grachev is just about on par with them already.

And you are really going to debate that Cherepanov wouldn't have been an NHL player?

Please, every GM has their Lundmarks and Brendles.

At the same time not every GM has the luxury of Kovalchuks, Ovechkins, and Malkins.

Recently, Sather has done a fine job of getting guys somewhere in between.


And i will reiterate: this is complaining for the sake of complaining. People having no patience. People needing something to whine about.

Want to question his free agent acquisitions and the contracts? Fine. Valid arguments there.

But in no way shape or form can ANYONE whine about the farm system or the young players.

Some people think you can magically draft a top 5 player every year? The Rangers have managed to steal players in the top 20 that probably should have been top 10. And you are seriously complaining? Relax. Allow some of these guys to develop.


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Old
12-12-2008, 01:10 AM
  #36
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If Sather was smart, he'd declare victory and go home.

The next several years are going to be difficult for the league in general and the Rangers in particular. The salary cap will go down sooner or later and the Rangers won't have a lot of room to manuver. It's hard to dump contracts without picking up nearly equal amounts of salary and given the economic climate (no room for big increases in ticket prices) it would be hard to justify buying out a player with 4+ years to go on their contract, especially since some of the salary will count for years against the cap.

It's going to be no fun at all.

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12-12-2008, 06:30 AM
  #37
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
The problem is that people want INSTANT gratification.
If more than a decade is instant gratification one can only imagine what your definition of longterm might be.

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12-12-2008, 06:48 AM
  #38
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The salary cap will go down sooner or later and the Rangers won't have a lot of room to manuver. It's hard to dump contracts without picking up nearly equal amounts of salary and given the economic climate (no room for big increases in ticket prices) it would be hard to justify buying out a player with 4+ years to go on their contract, especially since some of the salary will count for years against the cap.
So long as the CBA remains as it is, the New York Rangers will never buy out a contract. If a trade is not an option, I expect any cap circumvention to be achieved by sending one or more of our higher paid players to Hartford (see Kasparitus, Darius; Rissmiller, Patrick).

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12-12-2008, 07:04 AM
  #39
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The game passed Sather by many years ago. All he has done since he came to NY is to spend money on free agents, exploit obviously bad situations (Jagr in Washington) and foolishly draft goalies with high draft picks. His ego far exceeds his ability. However, so long as Dolan runs things Slats has a lifetime contract so we are stuck with him. At least he finally found a coach with half a clue in Renney after a string of disastrous hires. I agree with many, that Renney's player development skills outweigh his ability to coach.

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12-12-2008, 07:18 AM
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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
The game passed Sather by many years ago.
This perpetuates the myth that he was ever a good GM.


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Originally Posted by ThisYearsModel View Post
I agree with many, that Renney's player development skills outweigh his ability to coach.
That people think Renney can turn non-goal scorers into goal scorers is what's wrong with many people's perception of Renney's coaching abilities.

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12-12-2008, 07:37 AM
  #41
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I don't think Glen Sather has done a bad job at all. I would hold Tom Renney just as accountable. Sather IMO has won most of the trades he has completed for this team. He IMO has put together some excellent pieces to the table, all the while getting players here that are willing to compete under the stress of playing for the NY Rangers. Let's face it...One or two bad plays, and you get boo'ed out of your own building...Which is pathetic in itself. Sather has brought in some damn good talent, and it's up to Renney to continue to get them to play to the best of thier ability...Which so far I don't think he truly has done.

With that said...I am happy with the Sather Era so far. There are two guys out there that I would more than welcome as new GM's. They are John Davidson, and Brian Burke. Other then those two, I would want anyone else but Glen Sather.
As long as Dolan is here, Sather is here for Life!!!! Look at how much Dolan dealt with Isaha Thomas before he "reassigned him". As long as Sather does not have more than 2 lawsuits against him, he is good to go, especially with his team making the playoffs the last 2 years.

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Old
12-12-2008, 08:54 AM
  #42
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Originally Posted by chosen View Post
If more than a decade is instant gratification one can only imagine what your definition of longterm might be.
This discussion is about post lockout.

And draft picks don't develop instantaneously.

Del Zotto, 18.
Grachev, 18.
Anisimov, 20.
Sanguinetti, 20.
Staal, 21.
Dubinsky, 22.
Korpikoski, 22.

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12-12-2008, 09:02 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
This discussion is about post lockout.

And draft picks don't develop instantaneously.

Del Zotto, 18.
Grachev, 18.
Anisimov, 20.
Sanguinetti, 20.
Staal, 21.
Dubinsky, 22.
Korpikoski, 22.
That's a good bunch. I'm optimistic. I'd also include Carl Hagelin, who is just 20 as well.

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12-12-2008, 09:11 AM
  #44
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That's a good bunch. I'm optimistic. I'd also include Carl Hagelin, who is just 20 as well.
And Chris Doyle.

Both of which at least have the ability to turn into decent 3rd line players.

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12-12-2008, 09:21 AM
  #45
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it's always odd characterizing a first place team with a hodgepodge cast of characters as underperforming.

I will say this again and again. While the trend in recent games hasn't been pretty, this team is still finding ways to get two points out of a game. And for a team with much turnover and with its current make-up, that's really all you can ask for at this point. What Sather and Renney do from here is important. Hopefully they realize the weaknesses of this team and either make appropriate changes. If appropriate changes aren't made it means that 1) they don't want to trade any youth, and that's fine and/or 2) they may not be able to unload any of their salaries, which may not matter since they don't want to unload any youth to acquire help.

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12-12-2008, 09:38 AM
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it's always odd characterizing a first place team with a hodgepodge cast of characters as underperforming.

I will say this again and again. While the trend in recent games hasn't been pretty, this team is still finding ways to get two points out of a game. And for a team with much turnover and with its current make-up, that's really all you can ask for at this point. What Sather and Renney do from here is important. Hopefully they realize the weaknesses of this team and either make appropriate changes. If appropriate changes aren't made it means that 1) they don't want to trade any youth, and that's fine and/or 2) they may not be able to unload any of their salaries, which may not matter since they don't want to unload any youth to acquire help.
...and Fletch wins the prize for the Most Intelligent Post of the Season. Well ****ing said.

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12-12-2008, 12:01 PM
  #47
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This team will never win a Cup with Sather running the show.

This guy deserves his place in hockey history for the Oilers, no question.

However, the Duquette analogy is spot on. Or maybe Stick Michael or Bob Watson, or Ernie Acorsi, or even Craig Patrick. All were GM's who built teams that won championships or helped build dynasties after being ousted too earlier to reap the rewards of winning.

Sather has paved the way for the Rangers to become a top-10 NHL team. hats off to him for that, because we all know how bad things were.

But, he is old, lacks fire, passion and i think is outdated to lead this team into the next decade. Time to bring in some young blood who can build on Sather's accomplishments.

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12-12-2008, 12:40 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
People need to take into account. There is PRE lockout Sather and POST lockout Sather. Very different rules, very different philosophy.

Post lockout Glen Sather has been very good to NY.
Very true. One of the main problems seems to be that Post-lockout Sather is trying to correct the ills of Pre-lockout Sather. 'Post' doesn't have to hand out lucrative UFA contracts if 'Pre' had dealt our more value assets for picks or prospects instead of reclamation projects, or if 'Pre' hadn't pissed away first round picks on longshot losers because they were local NYR fans. These unconsiounable choices continue to hurt the organization indirectly.

If it was a different person entirely that was correcting the Pre-lockout debacles, you could say this guy was doing a great job. You look at the body of work though and it's a roller coaster at best.

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12-12-2008, 12:47 PM
  #49
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Sather had a couple moves...

that really defined the last few years. He was a genius in getting Jagr for mostly nothing, and perhaps even more of a genius in getting Washington to pay for half of Jags' salary. The Rangers had a guy with 123 points that counted for less than $5MM against the cap. Jagr would've cost around $8MM so the $3MM savings was huge.

The other was the drafting of Lundqvist.

Shame he didn't make much of the purge, which, of course, was allowed to happen because Sather let himself spend tons of money, so I'm not sure I can say he was really great for wasting money.

But when you look at it, his teams haven't improved dramatically since the lockout. When you have a bridge that is Jagr, you would've hoped he could've done better, and when he goes against the cap, and even borrows from the next season, expectations are pretty high. I think he missed some opportunities along the way and can't say that he's doing a great job. Very good? Perhaps, but not great.

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12-12-2008, 01:42 PM
  #50
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that really defined the last few years. He was a genius in getting Jagr for mostly nothing, and perhaps even more of a genius in getting Washington to pay for half of Jags' salary. The Rangers had a guy with 123 points that counted for less than $5MM against the cap. Jagr would've cost around $8MM so the $3MM savings was huge.

The other was the drafting of Lundqvist.

Shame he didn't make much of the purge, which, of course, was allowed to happen because Sather let himself spend tons of money, so I'm not sure I can say he was really great for wasting money.

But when you look at it, his teams haven't improved dramatically since the lockout. When you have a bridge that is Jagr, you would've hoped he could've done better, and when he goes against the cap, and even borrows from the next season, expectations are pretty high. I think he missed some opportunities along the way and can't say that he's doing a great job. Very good? Perhaps, but not great.
Did Sather draft Lundqvist? I seem to remember him coming on over the summer. If it wasn't Sather, who ran the 2000 draft?

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