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Old
12-12-2008, 10:22 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
1) Depleted? We're missing one defenceman and he's the 3rd best... Pittsburg has a depleted defensive core, yet they don't play the trap and guess what... they're winning...

2)Last year wasn't a problem... they just had to be more carefull, no need to start the trap...

3)It would if this team was built to play the trap, yet they're speedy scoring euro-style forwards... they need to be moving, skating... last year, they created a lot of 3 on 2 and 2 on 1, while not allowing the other team to do so... now, it's the exact opposite, these players, except the 4th line, can't play effectively the trap... why do you think the most successfull and steady line has been the 4th?

4)As great a success as they had at the beginning of the year and a lot less as last year... this team as a problem of focus and coaching strategy... playing the trap doesn't solve any of these problems.

AND FINALLY : The trap is the most boring style of hockey ever invented, it sucks, last game was a snore fest... we need to get rid of this kind of hockey not embrace it.
Well

1) Komo's absence is felt. When you have Brisebois and Obyrne, you know a breakdown is likely to happen. We paid for it twice last night. Also, we don't have the luxury of having two franchise forwards that can break a game at any given time unlike Pens.

2) Last year you didn't have to deal with multiple injuries nor streaky forwards.

3) I'm seeing just as much odd man rushes for us this year coming from the neutral zone.

4) Problem being focus? Maybe. Coaching strategy? I don't agree. The trap was an adjustment that actually got them out of the November hump. We've had 9 points of a possible 12 in the last 6 games.

I didn't see a boring game as you did. I saw a lot of missed chances where we didn't capitalize. Had the score been different, it would have been more pleasant for everyone watching. I doubt you would have made this comment so sternly had we won the game.

Bottom line is the coach had to make a decision on what will win him hockey games. If his system is not working this year for whatever reason, well he's not going to keep hitting his head on a wall. Line juggling, trapping, whatever works. Besides I don't see trapping as bad as NJ or old Boston.

But who knows. Maybe you're right. Maybe trying to overwhelm them was the way to go. Or maybe playing a run and gun against a Lecavalier and St-Louis would have killed us even more. Maybe Carbo didn't want to take that chance with Brisebois and Obyrne. Doesn't matter now. We'll see how they do against the Caps.

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Old
12-12-2008, 10:25 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by BigTimer View Post
How is that possible when Fischer doesn't possess the meanness that Mcdonagh has even though he's over a year older and has had ample time to fill out with access to NCAA facilities and programs.
He has as much meanness, he just isn't as developped physically. Some kids develop quicker than others physically. Getting mono also set him back last year.

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12-12-2008, 10:30 AM
  #103
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Well

1) Komo's absence is felt. When you have Brisebois and Obyrne, you know a breakdown is likely to happen. We paid for it twice last night. Also, we don't have the luxury of having two franchise forwards that can break a game at any given time unlike Pens.

2) Last year you didn't have to deal with multiple injuries nor streaky forwards.

3) I'm seeing just as much odd man rushes for us this year coming from the neutral zone.

4) Problem being focus? Maybe. Coaching strategy? I don't agree. The trap was an adjustment that actually got them out of the November hump. We've had 9 points of a possible 12 in the last 6 games.

I didn't see a boring game as you did. I saw a lot of missed chances where we didn't capitalize. Had the score been different, it would have been more pleasant for everyone watching. I doubt you would have made this comment so sternly had we won the game.

Bottom line is the coach had to make a decision on what will win him hockey games. If his system is not working this year for whatever reason, well he's not going to keep hitting his head on a wall. Line juggling, trapping, whatever works. Besides I don't see trapping as bad as NJ or old Boston.

But who knows. Maybe you're right. Maybe trying to overwhelm them was the way to go. Or maybe playing a run and gun against a Lecavalier and St-Louis would have killed us even more. Maybe Carbo didn't want to take that chance with Brisebois and Obyrne. Doesn't matter now. We'll see how they do against the Caps.
Unless Lecavalier and St.Louis have the stamina to play 45-50 minutes, there is no way TB can play the same tempo as our team can when it plays like it did against NYR.

Not sure how Lecavalier and St.Louis "killed" us. St.Louis had a gift breakaway that he scored on, I'll give him that, the other goal was a weak one on Halak. Lecavalier was pretty invisible. What killed us was Halak was weak and Kolzig made numerous big saves.

I'd still like us to play weak teams like this a lot more up tempo, when you accelerate the pace, teams like this don;t have the skill or depth to keep up.

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Old
12-12-2008, 10:30 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by m00ks View Post
Well

3) I'm seeing just as much odd man rushes for us this year coming from the neutral zone.
Come on, you can't be serious?

Do you really remember last year... the habs had the ability to score goals in a split second, it was pretty umbelievable...

As for Lecavalier and St-Louis... they're the ones who should be afraid of an open game against the habs... and they were...

We played exactly the type of game they wanted... they were the ones struggling trying to slow down the pace...

It's one thing to tell your players "Be carefull, play hard" and actually instruct them how to play hard... Julien is a master at carefully preparing his team... Carbo's a master a choosing the best outfit and tie for the night...

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12-12-2008, 10:59 AM
  #105
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If I was GM I'd be looking at 3 players for a deal (must agree to re-sign)
1)Kovalchuk
2)J-Bo
3)any powerforward in the league.

And I'd make this deal only if he agreed to re-sign

J-BO is a solid defensemen, he's just been playing on a horrible team. Higgins is way to injury prone and we already have enough offensive power. MPac, is a prospect, he could turn into a great player or turn into Alexander Daigle.
I'd live with 1st + Higgins + any prospect for J-bo.

For Kovalchuk it would take a lot more imho to get him, but that's for a different thread.

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12-12-2008, 11:07 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by ForzaHabs View Post
If I was GM I'd be looking at 3 players for a deal (must agree to re-sign)
1)Kovalchuk
2)J-Bo
3)any powerforward in the league.

And I'd make this deal only if he agreed to re-sign

J-BO is a solid defensemen, he's just been playing on a horrible team. Higgins is way to injury prone and we already have enough offensive power. MPac, is a prospect, he could turn into a great player or turn into Alexander Daigle.
I'd live with 1st + Higgins + any prospect for J-bo.

For Kovalchuk it would take a lot more imho to get him, but that's for a different thread.
The question isn't if you want J-Bo or not... I would love to have him on this team... but for how long...

We cannot have a lineup with Markov, Komisarek, Hamrlik and J-Bo next year...

There's such thing as a salary cap, that'll mostly go down in 2 years while having to re-sign Price...

How do you do it?

As a rental... would you still make that trade? I know, I wouldn't...

Sign long term? Hell yes! But who do we let go? Komisarek... J-Bo is left-handed...

Hamrlik? Who do you trade him to and, I think he has a NTC...

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Old
12-12-2008, 11:14 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Come on, you can't be serious?

Do you really remember last year... the habs had the ability to score goals in a split second, it was pretty umbelievable...

As for Lecavalier and St-Louis... they're the ones who should be afraid of an open game against the habs... and they were...

We played exactly the type of game they wanted... they were the ones struggling trying to slow down the pace...

It's one thing to tell your players "Be carefull, play hard" and actually instruct them how to play hard... Julien is a master at carefully preparing his team... Carbo's a master a choosing the best outfit and tie for the night...
2-1 and breakouts? Koivu-Andrei, Andrei-Dago, Dago breakaway, Laps-Begin, Pleks-X just to name a few most recent from memory. The difference is their not converting. And a lot of our goals came from PP last year.

There were a lot of memorable moments and goals from last year but that was a whole season's worth of memories. And you do know that we have the same coach as last year so I don't get where you're coming from with the Carbo criticism about his coaching.

If it ain't broke don't fix it. Well it broke as no one's playing to their potential except a select few so he had to adjust to what's currently working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price
Unless Lecavalier and St.Louis have the stamina to play 45-50 minutes, there is no way TB can play the same tempo as our team can when it plays like it did against NYR.

Not sure how Lecavalier and St.Louis "killed" us. St.Louis had a gift breakaway that he scored on, I'll give him that, the other goal was a weak one on Halak. Lecavalier was pretty invisible. What killed us was Halak was weak and Kolzig made numerous big saves.

I'd still like us to play weak teams like this a lot more up tempo, when you accelerate the pace, teams like this don;t have the skill or depth to keep up.
Well you don't need Lecavalier and St. Louis to play for 45-50 min to hurt you. They each average around 20 and that's all they needed to put up the 3 goals they needed, regardless on how they went in. They scored. It counted. They win. I don't know what would have happened had we given them more ice.

I do agree that we should show up against teams that we are suppose to beat specially when they play before. We did get that quick jump but we seemed to be content to sit on that one goal till something happens. I just don't think the trap had anything to do with our lack of persistence. You can ask for a high tempo game but when you're team is not responding, what do you do?

Edit: I feel this discussion should be taken elsewhere than the Jaybo thread.

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12-12-2008, 12:16 PM
  #108
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Sorry I don't understand
lol i am still trying to figure this one out myself.

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Old
12-12-2008, 12:37 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Fischer will make a bigger impact physically when he fills out, he'll be a mobile 220lbs guy. McDonagh is already filled out at 6'1" 210lbs or thereabouts. Where Fischer has more upside is his skating and offensive ability
What? what makes you think McDonagh is done growing? What are you basing this off of? As for skating, McDonagh's skating is good, I don't know what your getting at. As for offensive abilities, McDonagh has clearly shown more offensive upside over Fischer so far.

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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
Fischer seems to be a Brisebois type player, soft offensive player...
Fischer's best assets are his skating, long reach and his defensive play along with his passing abilities. He's much better in his own end then in the offensive zone. You would think that someone that can move the puck like he can would be able to produce a lot of offense, and while his offensive game is really starting to developm, he's still got a ways to go before he can be considered an offensive player imo.

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On the contrary, Fischer was a "swinging for the fences" type pick while McDonagh was the safe, more advanced player.

Fischer had great tools, skating, size and puck skills but was more raw at 6'3" 180lbs vs McDonagh who was 6'1" and over 200lbs and more polished at 18.
McDonagh was the more advanced player because he's the better player. Look at the Minnesota High School State tournament when they faced off against one another, even though McDonagh was a year younger, he was named MVP of the tournament and I've heard from others that he was really great that year for CDH. McDonagh has been better then Fischer so far at each level and while not a great indicator, he's played for USA for the U-18 and soon to be U-20, something Fischer never did.

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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
He has as much meanness, he just isn't as developped physically. Some kids develop quicker than others physically. Getting mono also set him back last year.
That's not even close to being true. Since Fischer has been at Minnesota I've seen most of his games since I get almost all there games on tv, Fischer has shown me nothing close to being anywhere near as mean as McDonagh. Fischer and mean should NOT be in the same sentence. McDonagh who I just saw for the 4th time this year, has a mean streak at least at times, and is certainly a physical player. Fischer can pin players along the boards and does so willingly but other then that he rarely throws a check, doesn't seem to be able to handle players in the crease. I do think that once he gets stronger its' going to help him, but in no way do I expect to see him being anywhere near as physical or "mean" as McDonagh or at all.

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Old
12-12-2008, 01:29 PM
  #110
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And what's that has to do with anything?

I think you're missing the point completely...
You said that Pittsburgh has a depleted defense corps, doesn't play the trap and are winning...I responded that we have a better record than them playing the trap displaying that playing the trap has nothing to do with losing.

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Old
12-12-2008, 01:52 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by montreal View Post
What? what makes you think McDonagh is done growing? What are you basing this off of? As for skating, McDonagh's skating is good, I don't know what your getting at. As for offensive abilities, McDonagh has clearly shown more offensive upside over Fischer so far.



Fischer's best assets are his skating, long reach and his defensive play along with his passing abilities. He's much better in his own end then in the offensive zone. You would think that someone that can move the puck like he can would be able to produce a lot of offense, and while his offensive game is really starting to developm, he's still got a ways to go before he can be considered an offensive player imo.



McDonagh was the more advanced player because he's the better player. Look at the Minnesota High School State tournament when they faced off against one another, even though McDonagh was a year younger, he was named MVP of the tournament and I've heard from others that he was really great that year for CDH. McDonagh has been better then Fischer so far at each level and while not a great indicator, he's played for USA for the U-18 and soon to be U-20, something Fischer never did.



That's not even close to being true. Since Fischer has been at Minnesota I've seen most of his games since I get almost all there games on tv, Fischer has shown me nothing close to being anywhere near as mean as McDonagh. Fischer and mean should NOT be in the same sentence. McDonagh who I just saw for the 4th time this year, has a mean streak at least at times, and is certainly a physical player. Fischer can pin players along the boards and does so willingly but other then that he rarely throws a check, doesn't seem to be able to handle players in the crease. I do think that once he gets stronger its' going to help him, but in no way do I expect to see him being anywhere near as physical or "mean" as McDonagh or at all.
At 210lbs, how much more weight do you want McDonagh to pack on? If he gets to 220 or 225 at that height it will slow him down. Fischer is 6'4", he can add another 20-25lbs and it should not affect his agility and mobility.


Fischer's offensive game will improve as he gets stronger and his shot gets heavier. His physical game will improve also, last year he was a 185lbs beanpole because of his illness.

There are gazillions of examples of one player being superior at 18-19 and another player becoming the better NHLer. I can find you countless examples...just off the top just look at Gilbert Brule.

When I have seen Fischer he's not afraid to hit but last year he lacked the weight to relly nail guys, this year guys feel it more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
You said that Pittsburgh has a depleted defense corps, doesn't play the trap and are winning...I responded that we have a better record than them playing the trap displaying that playing the trap has nothing to do with losing.
It's not as simple ast trap+loss and no trap=win. With the team we have, you have to play a style that maximises their abilities. We have a quick, skating and puck control team. Short term, playing the 1-4 trap may get guys attention, but I can guarntee you we'll ever win a cup that way.

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Old
12-12-2008, 02:11 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
1st round pick + Higgins + Pacioretty


He says thats what it would take for Montreal to get Jay Bo.
Aside from the question of whether Bouwmeester would re-sign here, which is a very important one...

I wouldn't include Pacioretty in a deal for a defenseman. Higgins, Tanguay, Plekanec, even Kovalev and A. Kost: These are all very nice players but they are soft, perimeter players who don't hate to lose enough. What we're missing are physical top 6 forwards who hate to lose and will pay the price to win. That is what separates us from the real contenders at this point. We're hoping that Pacioretty turns out to be exactly this kind of player. Save the 1st round pick in case we have the opportunity to acquire a serious forward like Nathan Horton, who I would pay extravagantly to get. Really what I'm getting at is that because Pacioretty may turn out to be exactly what this team needs I wouldn't trade him for something unless the return for him (and maybe others) is equal to or exceeds his potential to become a high impact power forward.


Last edited by Catch-22: 12-12-2008 at 02:16 PM.
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Old
12-12-2008, 02:25 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
At 210lbs, how much more weight do you want McDonagh to pack on? If he gets to 220 or 225 at that height it will slow him down. Fischer is 6'4", he can add another 20-25lbs and it should not affect his agility and mobility.

Fischer's offensive game will improve as he gets stronger and his shot gets heavier. His physical game will improve also, last year he was a 185lbs beanpole because of his illness.

There are gazillions of examples of one player being superior at 18-19 and another player becoming the better NHLer. I can find you countless examples...just off the top just look at Gilbert Brule.

When I have seen Fischer he's not afraid to hit but last year he lacked the weight to relly nail guys, this year guys feel it more.
My point is that at 19 you don't know how much more a person will grow. Granted you are likely done growing in height but people do still grow at that age. I have no idea what his playing weight will be down the road.

Fischer was 195 last year, at least during mid season cause I heard them say it during on of Minnesota's games.

As for the better player, I'm talking about each level, each year and by a good bit.

As for physical play I rarely ever see him throw a hit.

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Old
12-12-2008, 08:10 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
And let go Komisarek?

Or maybe you want 22mil on 4 defencemen?
We can have an expensive defensive core if we have a cheap group of forwards. I think we will have tons of cap space up front next year.

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Originally Posted by Catch-22 View Post
Aside from the question of whether Bouwmeester would re-sign here, which is a very important one...

I wouldn't include Pacioretty in a deal for a defenseman. Higgins, Tanguay, Plekanec, even Kovalev and A. Kost: These are all very nice players but they are soft, perimeter players who don't hate to lose enough. What we're missing are physical top 6 forwards who hate to lose and will pay the price to win. That is what separates us from the real contenders at this point. We're hoping that Pacioretty turns out to be exactly this kind of player. Save the 1st round pick in case we have the opportunity to acquire a serious forward like Nathan Horton, who I would pay extravagantly to get. Really what I'm getting at is that because Pacioretty may turn out to be exactly what this team needs I wouldn't trade him for something unless the return for him (and maybe others) is equal to or exceeds his potential to become a high impact power forward.
I would definitly move Plek and Higgins before Max Pac. Plus it would be tempting for Martin since he doesn't want expensive guys.


Last edited by Habs10Habs: 12-12-2008 at 09:49 PM.
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12-12-2008, 09:02 PM
  #115
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montreal will keep its 1st round pick since draft in montreal.

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Old
12-12-2008, 11:27 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
The question isn't if you want J-Bo or not... I would love to have him on this team... but for how long...

We cannot have a lineup with Markov, Komisarek, Hamrlik and J-Bo next year...

There's such thing as a salary cap, that'll mostly go down in 2 years while having to re-sign Price...

How do you do it?

As a rental... would you still make that trade? I know, I wouldn't...

Sign long term? Hell yes! But who do we let go? Komisarek... J-Bo is left-handed...

Hamrlik? Who do you trade him to and, I think he has a NTC...
I'd let go Komo depending on the money he wants.

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12-13-2008, 12:26 AM
  #117
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I'd let go Komo depending on the money he wants.
Exactly what I'd do as well. Bouwmeester would completely change the dynamic of our D-Core.

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12-13-2008, 02:07 AM
  #118
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Exactly what I'd do as well. Bouwmeester would completely change the dynamic of our D-Core.
Would also make us way easier to play against, and softer. Just saying. You have pros and cons.

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12-13-2008, 05:42 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by HomaridII View Post
1st round pick + Higgins + Pacioretty


He says thats what it would take for Montreal to get Jay Bo.
Only if he agrees to an extention first... or else fogettaboutit

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12-13-2008, 05:49 PM
  #120
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Habs fans just over-evaluate all of there prospects
Tell me about it...

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Old
12-14-2008, 09:52 PM
  #121
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proposed trade with florida no jay bow

the trade proposal would be
plecanek 1.6 million
latendresse 850.00

for

horton 4 million
stewart 500,000

if we want to get bigger and meaner this is a type of deal gainey should
be looking at.With the long term injuries to komi, higgins and dandanault
we shoul be able to fit this under the cap.

we all know Horton does not want to play for Martin and that Latendresse
will not get a real chance here. Plecanek was a no show last playoffs when
the games got rougher and Anthony Stewart needs a change of scenary
just like Latendresse.

what do you all think about this proposal.

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12-14-2008, 09:54 PM
  #122
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Isn't Komisarek coming back this week or next? And not really sure I like this.

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12-14-2008, 09:54 PM
  #123
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I'd do it. Horton is going to be a superstar.

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12-14-2008, 10:53 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by broccoli View Post
the trade proposal would be
plecanek 1.6 million
latendresse 850.00

for

horton 4 million
stewart 500,000

if we want to get bigger and meaner this is a type of deal gainey should
be looking at.With the long term injuries to komi, higgins and dandanault
we shoul be able to fit this under the cap.

we all know Horton does not want to play for Martin and that Latendresse
will not get a real chance here. Plecanek was a no show last playoffs when
the games got rougher and Anthony Stewart needs a change of scenary
just like Latendresse.

what do you all think about this proposal.
You can't compare Lats with Stewart, one is 21 the other is like 25 and a bust. Lats is having a rough stretch but he started with 8pts in 11 games.

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I'd do it. Horton is going to be a superstar.
How do you figure?

People on here crap on Lats well Horton is just as bad, puts up better points but plays soft.

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Old
12-14-2008, 11:02 PM
  #125
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Higgins+Lats+Fischer+2nd round for Kovalchuk

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